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Mass shooting at Oregon community college

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+rei+    34993
Isn't PR a US territory anyway how does that even count
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+rei+    34993
the "GUN FREE ZONES" comment is silly - the issue is that firearms are so oversaturated and easily accessable they effectively become impulse tools. When regulated and controled it requires more foresight and planning to commit crimes with them - while this doesn't remove all firearm homicides, considering how many are emotional outbursts, spur of the moment choices, or even accidents, it's a relevant point of contention

And if you're going to use switzerland as an example of 'everythings fine and they have guns' I point to every other country in the western world with gun control as an exampel of 'everything's better without em
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»Noelle    5849

http://www.livescience.com/51327-happiest-countries-list.html

 

list is in some way verified on google as well because they usually don't have apps come up automatically on a search otherwise, there could have admittedly been scientific error in how they went about it tho, especially considering I always thought Nordic countries dominated this list  

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dopespot    34

Just wanted to chime in that this:

whether or not the second amendment is open for interpretation is irrelevant - it was written almost 250 years ago in a vastly different world. when is the last time you had to deal with a foreign nation occupying your city and telling you what to do? besides, the founding fathers had no way of knowing what would happen with guns - at the time, they were single shot and barely accurate up to 50 yards. also, did you know that even in colonial times, the states kept records of who owned guns, and you could be fined and occasionally arrested for not reporting to a local militia muster for training? oh, and if you owned weapons the state government could walk into your home and inspect them pretty much whenever they wanted. when is the last time you had to deal with that?

 

 

is no different than this:

whether or not the fourteenth amendment is open for interpretation is irrelevant - it was written almost 150 years ago in a vastly different world. when is the last time you had to deal with a group of people who went from being literal property to being released freemen and second class persons. the lawmakers  had no way of knowing what would happen with illegal immigrants entering our country in the future - at the time there was a vast diaspora of recently freed Africans who upon receiving their freedom needed to be incorporated into the american system of voting and given the same basic rights as every other american citizen. when is the last time you had to deal with that, instead of the current situation where illegal immigrants and their children cost US taxpayers tens of billions of dollars a year at the state and local level?

 

 

Although I think the founding fathers were pretty clear with the statement "shall not be infringed", but if you want to talk about the "relevance" of the constitution, that's fine. Just remember, it goes both ways. People writing the 14th amendmant in 1868 had no idea that many generations later people would migrate to the US while circumventing the legal process only to have children here, fight against deportation on grounds that their children are citizens, and be a net-negative to society as a whole. I include people riding out expired H1B visas in this same bracket of people.

 

 

in addition to the other points

 

4f8f1c12ffec50da9c17efa9076973a1.png

 

we are 23rd in this list.

 

Did you look at what other countries are ahead of us other than the obvious ones like Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, etc? I wonder if you've ever visited countries such as El Salvador (18), Columbia (13), and of course, Mexico (10). I guess the standard of happiness is a little too high in America considering we aren't a narco-state living with an extremely corrupt Federal Gov't at constant war with cartels dumping beheaded and mutilated bodies of their rivals and other citizens on overpasses and public streets. Shit, you would think we would be fleeing into their countries judging by your happiness statistic. But hey, at least they have gun-control. It's not like the bad guys can get guns if you ban them.

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»Noelle    5849

You seem to have missed the entire point and context of that statistic. It was to help rebut the Switzerland argument of the guy on the last page where he talks about less gun violence but more guns, where the factors for that in that particular country aren't necessarily applicable to the US on the grounds that the Swiss army likely makes up most of that, and less dissenting constituents can make for less violence overall.

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dopespot    34

The other guys argument wasn't well constructed at all but I don't think you should use a completely unrelated statistic to reinforce your argument; that is just adding to the confusion. It's pretty obv that several of those countries ahead of the US on that list have severely lower standards of living than we do and as such relative "happiness" isn't a good metric to follow for a possible correlation to gun-violence.

 

I agree that comparing the US to pretty much any other country in the world right now is difficult (especially Switzerland lol), and I don't think it should be done in regards to domestic policy.

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»Noelle    5849

The premise in defense of a correlation to the statistic is that happy people are less logically likely to commit acts of violence. Rather or not that's true for the other countries I don't know, and obviously correlation doesn't imply causation, but I think there's a sound argument asserting that there IS a causation (obviously not the only factor though,) but that just circles us all the way back to the mental health argument in a way.

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SSJ Grumpig    5621

Just wanted to chime in that this:

whether or not the second amendment is open for interpretation is irrelevant - it was written almost 250 years ago in a vastly different world. when is the last time you had to deal with a foreign nation occupying your city and telling you what to do? besides, the founding fathers had no way of knowing what would happen with guns - at the time, they were single shot and barely accurate up to 50 yards. also, did you know that even in colonial times, the states kept records of who owned guns, and you could be fined and occasionally arrested for not reporting to a local militia muster for training? oh, and if you owned weapons the state government could walk into your home and inspect them pretty much whenever they wanted. when is the last time you had to deal with that?

 

 

is no different than this:

whether or not the fourteenth amendment is open for interpretation is irrelevant - it was written almost 150 years ago in a vastly different world. when is the last time you had to deal with a group of people who went from being literal property to being released freemen and second class persons. the lawmakers  had no way of knowing what would happen with illegal immigrants entering our country in the future - at the time there was a vast diaspora of recently freed Africans who upon receiving their freedom needed to be incorporated into the american system of voting and given the same basic rights as every other american citizen. when is the last time you had to deal with that, instead of the current situation where illegal immigrants and their children cost US taxpayers tens of billions of dollars a year at the state and local level?

 

 

Although I think the founding fathers were pretty clear with the statement "shall not be infringed", but if you want to talk about the "relevance" of the constitution, that's fine. Just remember, it goes both ways. People writing the 14th amendmant in 1868 had no idea that many generations later people would migrate to the US while circumventing the legal process only to have children here, fight against deportation on grounds that their children are citizens, and be a net-negative to society as a whole. I include people riding out expired H1B visas in this same bracket of people.

 

 

i'm not sure what this has to do with anything, not only is it a different debate it's a completely different subject

 

and i definitely sense a tone of you comparing illegal immigrants having kids in the US to the country's gun problem

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»Satchmo    3224

If guns are the problem, why is it that cities such as DC and Chicago have seen significant decreases in their crime after and their gun bans were overruled? 

Ok there are some incredibly stupid people in this thread, but you are just on a whole new level of faggot. Since other people won't explain it, I'll explain as a citizen of Chicago.

 

Between January 1st and October 23rd, there have been nearly 2500 shooting with over 400 resulting in death. The main reason for the alleged drop in crime rate is because investigators were at one point (and potentially still are) marking some homicides as a separate crime to make it appear like the city is "safer" for tourists. The crime rate has stayed more or less static since last years court ruling. Unless you're looking at statistics from 2003 and prior and comparing them to post 2004 and later, which is both due to the aforementioned statistic tampering and the fact that gang culture has changed and evolved from what it was in 80s and especially the 90s (where large scale street warfare actually took place).

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iDunnoBro    822

the "GUN FREE ZONES" comment is silly - the issue is that firearms are so oversaturated and easily accessable they effectively become impulse tools. When regulated and controled it requires more foresight and planning to commit crimes with them - while this doesn't remove all firearm homicides, considering how many are emotional outbursts, spur of the moment choices, or even accidents, it's a relevant point of contention

And if you're going to use switzerland as an example of 'everythings fine and they have guns' I point to every other country in the western world with gun control as an exampel of 'everything's better without em

 

While gun ownership is mandatory in Switzerland, so is Gun Training. This is extremely important as an actual healthy gun culture leads to actually healthy gun legality. Also countries with gun control aren't really much better on average. This is a myth often perpetuated by the reasoning "firearm related crime is lower" but that's it, other forms of violent crimes never cease to compensate for the drop in firearm related crime because people are just gonna find the next best thing to commit the crime with (as well as protect themselves) But the UK is a shining example of Gun Control doing fuck-all for crime prevention.

 

I don't have a stake in the gun legality for america, due to the location and environment of America especially, I don't think banning would help or even be as easy as other routes.

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Laser Cat    5612

How about starting simple:

 

Federal funds for gun violence related research? 

 

I mean, if pro-gun folks are so convinced guns aren't the root of the problem then they should encourage this research as it could bolster their argument.  And if research says the opposite, it's clearly the evil muslim kenyan fascist socialist Marxist obama who is forcing scientists at gun point to agree to his america destroying liberal agenda and they can safely ignore it. 

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+rei+    34993
isn't the government funding anything the 'liberal agenda'?

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Wilson    12516
I think that must be the shortest atem post in history.
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Laser Cat    5612

isn't the government funding anything the 'liberal agenda'?

 

With the stalin + hitler + satan incarnate obama (the muslim terrorist anti-christian socialist marxist stalinist pianist facist guy who is redistributing all the wealth to the poor people like a tyrant), he will enact his evil liberal agenda on a throne of gold (paid for by christian republicans obviously) and puppy skulls. 

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iDunnoBro    822

How about starting simple:

 

Federal funds for gun violence related research? 

 

I mean, if pro-gun folks are so convinced guns aren't the root of the problem then they should encourage this research as it could bolster their argument.  And if research says the opposite, it's clearly the evil muslim kenyan fascist socialist Marxist obama who is forcing scientists at gun point to agree to his america destroying liberal agenda and they can safely ignore it. 

 

 

Contrasting gun violence vs violent crime would be more effective, though it's essentially already been done and honestly not hard or lengthy enough of a process to really justify federal spending.

 

The main advancement that could be made is confirming/disregarding cultural effects, which would be super helpful but I don't see how it could be done satisfactorly.

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