Jump to content
Mutavault

Grand Prix Quebec Cheaters!

Recommended Posts

Mutavault    2900

http://www.twitch.tv/magic/v/22430517

 

Jake Mondello: 1:25:33-1:27:35

 

This was caught on camera that he plays 2 lands in 1 turn but the difference here from Chapin playing 2 lands in 1 turn is Jake does so with clear ill intent. He plays Sactum of Ugin counts his lands out in piles knowing he has to put atleast 4 into Hangarback to trigger Sanctum but he goes through again counts then "oops" only 6 lands after the fact. So he pulls Ulomog and Processor to the front and decides to either do the right thing and just reveal Ulamog hopefully Omar will miss lethal on board or do the scummy thing and try to cheat with processor. So he grabs processor then gives his deck for Omar to shuffle and when he shuffles it Jake rapidly puts the forest into play puts processor into play and adds the counters to hangarback to get his attention off the play. Jake looks nervous as fuck after the fact and Omar misses it. (probably tries this often, especially in a ramp deck) but...your on camera retard...this is easily caught since the deck is only doing 1 thing. Play lands and play bombs. There is very little you can do to conceive a camera from a deck playing 7 8 and 10 drops while everyone else is playing a meta deck. So gets caught. Now decide if it was ill intent or if he just "forgot" he already played a land that turn. The land that may I add started the whole turn and is the only land that searches those Eldrazi. This is imo enough evidence to get him banned for intentional cheating.

 

Omar Beldon: 2:16:00

 

This one is just a basic use of fetching then manipulating your library. Then phantom cutting the deck to put the manipulated card back on top of deck. Watch him push what he wants towards the top then watch him cut the deck and follow his movements. The cards go right back on top at the end of it all. Then if you watch his opponent almost forgot to shuffle the deck after. Facts are he was manipulating his library even if the card he pushed to the top wasn't clear you can follow where the cards from that pile moved to.

 

Omar Beldon: 1:46:40

 

A Ugin resolves then Omar fetches while he fetches he scopes out a nice Utter End (1 of 2) and needing an answer to an Ugin at 9 loyalty. Seems like a good one. Then you see him do more weird shuffling and grab the Smoldering Marsh at 1:46:51 and put it in play. If you slow it down or replay the video (it happens fast) that Utter End is placed on top of the deck and manipulated like he did with the fetch land from the video prior. Keep watching and you'll see the Dig Through Time at end of turn he keeps stray Mantis Rider in grave which is very suspicious because at this time his hand is Dragon Outcast, Ojutai's Command x2 so no current answers to Ugin. After a fetch land Omar would have 5 cards in grave and 5 lands in play allowing Dig for a possible Stroke or Negate vs. just "hoping" for 1 of the 2 Utter Ends to answer the Ugin but he lets it go with no current answer in hand. After Dig resolves the first card is a mountain the next card is white then Utter End sure enough is in the top 7 so his Dig was 6 cards and Utter End the only real answer to Ugin at that much loyalty when he had a much greater chance answering it by having 2 counters in possible 7. So the Mantis Rider was for a "possible" Kologhans Command which will come up next 2 turns conveniently when he didn't have it in hand either before.

 

Outside of this evidence you can clearly see he shuffles over top to hide from the camera keeps his cards perfectly strait and hard for coverage team to make out what he's holding. He only held his hand a couple times when he fetched to lower it just a little to see what was going on. He has multiple Mantis Riders in every matchup outside of the mirror where it is the weakest in and has controlling less aggressive hands vs. the mirror in each game 1 not just after side boarding. I even went out of my way to ask Edgar Magalhaes if he mulligan'ed to 5 vs. Omar with an all or no land hand since the mirror is very forgiving on almost any hand outside of flood or no lands at all to the point mulling to 5 is pretty extreme. You also have to take into consideration he use to play Yugi-oh and got banned for cheating. So Omar was an easy target to investigate.

 

Let me know what everyone thinks please.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dro    25

Against my better judgement I decided to respond to this thread. Most of the supposed "cheats" you are catching seem circumstantial at best.

1:46:40- At this point its literally 1 negate 1 disdainful stroke vs 2 utter ends and i decide to make a calculated risk that i believed increased my odds of beating the Ugin as well as making my future topdecks live(mainly Kolaghan's commands which there were 3 to draw to in addition to already having 2 oujutai's command). 

2:16:00
The deck literally has a bunch of one of lands so finding a specific land isn't quick. also most certainly shuffled the deck thoroughly right afterwards.

Seems like we you are just grasping at straws here if you ask me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dro    25

Not trying to imply I was playing super tight btw. By this point Iwas super exhausted from 2 days of magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
itswhatever    3286

Omar Beldon is the guy who won a ycs with 2010 infernity and then got banned right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Turkey    1515

The Mondello cheat looks blatantly intentional to me. I'm not sure if you've escalated this to anyone privately or publicly yet, but I would be willing to help out with that if you haven't, as I know the right people to talk to.

I'm not buying the Beldon "cheats". As far as I'm concerned, in neither circumstance does he manipulate his deck in a suspicious manner. Futhermore, there is very little to gain from the alleged deck manipulation, as the opponent is 100% to shuffle his deck after searching in a GP Top 8. However, if you are reading this Omar, I would highly recommend that you make it a habit of shuffling your deck more thoroughly after searching to avoid any future accusations.

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JAndrees    109

A yugioh player that was banned is suspected of cheating with deck manipulation?  I'm shocked.

 

 

(I'm not)

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dro    25

The Mondello cheat looks blatantly intentional to me. I'm not sure if you've escalated this to anyone privately or publicly yet, but I would be willing to help out with that if you haven't, as I know the right people to talk to.

I'm not buying the Beldon "cheats". As far as I'm concerned, in neither circumstance does he manipulate his deck in a suspicious manner. Futhermore, there is very little to gain from the alleged deck manipulation, as the opponent is 100% to shuffle his deck after searching in a GP Top 8. However, if you are reading this Omar, I would highly recommend that you make it a habit of shuffling your deck more thoroughly after searching to avoid any future accusations.

 

Will definitely make a conscious effort to shuffle more thoroughly to avoid all ambiguity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Relianah    4515

A yugioh player that was banned is suspected of cheating with deck manipulation?  I'm shocked.
 
 
(I'm not)

he was banned because there was 4 dust tornadoes written on his deck list, don't be ignorant Joe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
POLLUTEDxDELTA    1887

The Jake Mondello one is obvious.

 

For Omar Beldon at 2:16:00 - he had to go through his whole deck to get to the one Island. He briefly stopped at Mantis Rider, but not in an overly suspicious way. I do think Omar didn't shuffle his deck enough, but he also didn't clearly manipulate it either. For Omar to have been cheating here, the positionings of certain piles would have been needed to be moved more meticulously, which they were not. Additionally, Dan Lanthier also shuffled Omar's deck fairly well, so even if there was a cheat in place, it would have been prevented. 

 

For 1:46:40, I do not like that Omar has a Mountain in his deck upside down. After rewatching it a couple times, I'm undecided. Omar knows the location of Utter End, it doesn't change as he shuffles, and Jake also doesn't sufficiently shuffle either, so Utter End is in the top few cards of Dig. 

 

Given that these are the only two instances we have of Omar, I'm more suspicious than Tenjum, but I don't have any conclusions either. Omar, I know you were on the PT a while ago, and now are going back. It's great to see old Yugioh players doing well. You owe it to yourself to shuffle more thoroughly so that these accusations don't come up. 

 

*

 

A couple months ago, I tried calling out a local cheater, Soohwang Yeem, for cheating in the top 8 of GP San Diego. The shuffle cheating was much more clear, and after a review from a few other people, I did a reddit thread, facebook post, and emailed the DCI suspensions committee. Most of his cheating was against Michael Majors, where Soohwang clearly manipulated his deck and Majors only cut Soohwang's deck in half, not fully shuffling it, so Soohwang got every card he needed for multiple turns. Majors still won, because UR Tutelage is pretty busted against Esper Dragons. 

 

I had known Soohwang to be a cheater because him and I both played Yugioh, were he did it before, and continued to do it in Magic. Magic judges are not adept at catching cheaters, so he has been able to take advantage of it and see some levels of success. I was happy when he finally cheated on camera, because I thought I had the evidence I needed to remove a cheater from the Magic community. I can't go too deep into detail, but the end result of the investigation was a slap on the wrist and "shuffle better next time please". I talked with a few other people, and they shared my concerns - not only are judges not properly trained to catch cheaters, but DCI is also very lenient in any action they take. 

 

One of the most blatant ones was when Erin Diaz drew 8 cards vs Chris Vanmeter in the top 8 of an SCG Open. He tried to hide it as best as he could, got caught, then said "I was tired, sorry!", and didn't get banned. 

 

I haven't been as involved in Magic the past 8 months or so anyways, but these things have really made me doubt my desire to play Magic professionally / competitively. One of my biggest reasons for quitting Yugioh and playing Magic was because I thought cheating was taken more seriously. It hasn't been.

 

tl:dr Jake was cheating. Omar needs to shuffle more. DCI needs to toughen up. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Noelle    5848

for the guy that tried to report the op as slander, and whoever might in the future, stop

 

this isn't slander

 

even if logistically he ends up being incorrect on whatever logic, he didn't just make baseless claims, he supported them, and on top of this calling out people we think are cheaters if we can back that shit up in one way or another isn't slander but is something we encourage, cus we don't like scummy players and we wanna know just in case for the future.

 

not saying anyone did or didn't cheat or w/e i rly don't care cus its magic, but just in general as a forum this is our collective mindset so dont be a pussy please 

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Schism    986

The Jake Mondello one is obvious.

 

For Omar Beldon at 2:16:00 - he had to go through his whole deck to get to the one Island. He briefly stopped at Mantis Rider, but not in an overly suspicious way. I do think Omar didn't shuffle his deck enough, but he also didn't clearly manipulate it either. For Omar to have been cheating here, the positionings of certain piles would have been needed to be moved more meticulously, which they were not. Additionally, Dan Lanthier also shuffled Omar's deck fairly well, so even if there was a cheat in place, it would have been prevented. 

 

For 1:46:40, I do not like that Omar has a Mountain in his deck upside down. After rewatching it a couple times, I'm undecided. Omar knows the location of Utter End, it doesn't change as he shuffles, and Jake also doesn't sufficiently shuffle either, so Utter End is in the top few cards of Dig. 

 

Given that these are the only two instances we have of Omar, I'm more suspicious than Tenjum, but I don't have any conclusions either. Omar, I know you were on the PT a while ago, and now are going back. It's great to see old Yugioh players doing well. You owe it to yourself to shuffle more thoroughly so that these accusations don't come up. 

 

*

 

A couple months ago, I tried calling out a local cheater, Soohwang Yeem, for cheating in the top 8 of GP San Diego. The shuffle cheating was much more clear, and after a review from a few other people, I did a reddit thread, facebook post, and emailed the DCI suspensions committee. Most of his cheating was against Michael Majors, where Soohwang clearly manipulated his deck and Majors only cut Soohwang's deck in half, not fully shuffling it, so Soohwang got every card he needed for multiple turns. Majors still won, because UR Tutelage is pretty busted against Esper Dragons. 

 

I had known Soohwang to be a cheater because him and I both played Yugioh, were he did it before, and continued to do it in Magic. Magic judges are not adept at catching cheaters, so he has been able to take advantage of it and see some levels of success. I was happy when he finally cheated on camera, because I thought I had the evidence I needed to remove a cheater from the Magic community. I can't go too deep into detail, but the end result of the investigation was a slap on the wrist and "shuffle better next time please". I talked with a few other people, and they shared my concerns - not only are judges not properly trained to catch cheaters, but DCI is also very lenient in any action they take. 

 

One of the most blatant ones was when Erin Diaz drew 8 cards vs Chris Vanmeter in the top 8 of an SCG Open. He tried to hide it as best as he could, got caught, then said "I was tired, sorry!", and didn't get banned. 

 

I haven't been as involved in Magic the past 8 months or so anyways, but these things have really made me doubt my desire to play Magic professionally / competitively. One of my biggest reasons for quitting Yugioh and playing Magic was because I thought cheating was taken more seriously. It hasn't been.

 

tl:dr Jake was cheating. Omar needs to shuffle more. DCI needs to toughen up. 

 

If the DCI is so lenient on banning cheaters than why did they ban Boettcher/Berticini/Saito/Humphries/Etc. after people noticed them cheating? Not trying to disagree with you I just want to hear your thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
POLLUTEDxDELTA    1887

It took a combination of multiple incidents (on and off camera) and community outrage for those players to be banned. iirc, all those players also weren't very good at hiding their methods of cheating, so they weren't difficult to catch.

 

Like I said before, my concern is that there are players in Magic who are good at cheating. They generally avoid attracting attention to themselves, and even if they get caught, judges / DCI do a catch and release. There is supposed to be a system where judges communicate with each other on incidents and certain players, but based on my experiences, that system is not being utilized. I have had multiple PTQs/ PPTQs where I caught my opponent trying to cheat against me, and I had to stop and tell the judge what my opponent was doing - either because they weren't paying attention, or they couldn't recognize what was going on. Even then, I would follow up in later events and ask what was done about the incident, and the answer is (effectively) nothing.

 

I understand how to protect myself from cheaters from playing Yugioh for so long, so I don't mind too much. What I do mind is how lax judges are about the whole subject of cheating. They seem to think it only happens at Pro Tours, and not at every level of the game. As long as their are prizes on the line, there will always be temptation and motivation for certain people.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Turkey    1515

The problem with enforcing cheating is that DCI can't justify banning someone without irrefutable evidence. Cheaters probably get away with it all the time and it sucks, but you can't just go banning people without knowing for certain that they cheated. I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is, but it's certainly not the one that bans innocent players without evidence. 
 

FWIW, I think the LEAST amount of cheating happens at Pro Tours. Professional players are generally the cleanest and most respectful players in the game, and a VERY minuscule number of them have a history of cheating. I personally believe the largest amount of cheating happens at SCG Opens where there is a large amount of money on the line, but generally the players don't have a reputation to lose. 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
POLLUTEDxDELTA    1887

My problem has been when there is irrefutable evidence in place, judges / DCI still haven't taken any action, i.e. Erin Diaz. 

 

I agree that Pro Tours have the least amount of cheating, compared to other events. I think most people who cheat are local players who aren't serious enough to travel, and don't have much to lose by being banned or disqualified. Like you said, SCG Opens are perfect for this. Most cases of cheating end up in DQs or being banned from a store, where the player can continue to cheat elsewhere. 

 

I understand that cheaters are going to find ways to cheats regardless of how strict policies are. I just wish that the consequences and likelyhood of getting caught outweighed the motivation to cheat. For some people, it never will, but DCI could set the bar a lot higher.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
»Turkey    1515

My problem has been when there is irrefutable evidence in place, judges / DCI still haven't taken any action, i.e. Erin Diaz. 

 

I agree that Pro Tours have the least amount of cheating, compared to other events. I think most people who cheat are local players who aren't serious enough to travel, and don't have much to lose by being banned or disqualified. Like you said, SCG Opens are perfect for this. Most cases of cheating end up in DQs or being banned from a store, where the player can continue to cheat elsewhere. 

 

I understand that cheaters are going to find ways to cheats regardless of how strict policies are. I just wish that the consequences and likelyhood of getting caught outweighed the motivation to cheat. For some people, it never will, but DCI could set the bar a lot higher.

The issue with the Erin Diaz cheat is that, while we are fairly certain that it was intentional, the judges have no idea. By definition, cheating has to be intentional. Intention can be the difference between a warning and a DQ w/o prize and 3 year ban. Judges don't like making subjective judgments about whether something is cheating or accidental. That is why Boettcher and Humphries were banned right away, while it took years to ban Bertoncini -- the former cases were blatant deck manipulation while Alex's were a series of opportunistic cheats that could easily be accidents if not for an obvious pattern over several years of play.

Opportunistic cheating frustrates me as much as anyone. In the case of the Mondello cheat above, I am 99% sure he intentionally cheated, but no one is talking about it and just brushing it off as an accident. It's impossible to prove that it was intentional by any method other than subjective judgment. This is a serious matter because this type of cheating is just as much cheating as stacking your deck, but it goes unpunished the most. However, the problem is I don't know how this can be enforced to a greater extent when people can just ALWAYS use the backdoor "it was an accident" excuse. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
POLLUTEDxDELTA    1887

I'm not an expert on this, but it feels like that's what Professional REL is supposed to be. At the beginning of every GP day two, they make an announcement that players are expected to play at a certain level - in these cases, knowing if you played your land for turn, or shuffling your deck thoroughly without looking. I know DCI has been hesitant to publish an "approved" method of shuffling, because there is so much gray area in that subject, much like altered cards' tournament legality.

 

I have been one of the few people against recent changes, such as drawing or revealing extra cards or failing to reveal morphs being downgraded to warnings. When you sign up for a competitive / professional event, certain things are expected of you. Forgetting things and fatigue are legitimate problems, but those are also things that can be mitigated by preparation and taking good physical care of yourself. Early in my career I made certain mistakes, such as deck list errors or short cutting, and learned to discipline myself so that those mistakes would never happen again. 

 

Obviously no one wants to get game losses, but this is one thing the DCI could have taken a stronger stance on. Instead of "making Magic fun for everyone", they could have kept some of the best tools for catching and punishing cheaters. Technically judges can still issue higher penalties if they believe there was an intention to cheat, but as you mentioned, intent cannot always be proven, and the system errs on the side of innocence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×