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Oh_The_Irony    771

 

5 hours ago, BigWizard3000 said:

Ik most people in this forum talk about the non brilliant variant but brilliant still seems to be the most topped version.  I'm not sure if it's just more people are playing it or if it's raw power simply makes it better than the other variants.  The speedroid engine is a great grind engine but in my playtest ING brilliant just blows people out.  

Gem knight crystal would be a horrible horrible addition to the deck.  If you wanna play a vanilla that works with the deck why not play metaphys armed dragon.  Seeing as how it works with all the monarch cards.  If you play brilliant there's no way to not have a chance you'll brick.  You will brick with the engine eventually.  But you play the deck with the notion that the chance of drawing double garnet etc is very very unlikely.  But it can and will happen you'll never always draw perfectly.  Adding another bad card to the deck for return is useless.  Most people run Jack's knight or the witch card becauze they're level 5 light and the witch thing I'm pretty sure is a fairy.  They both trigger return and set you up for xyz plays

2 hours ago, BigWizard3000 said:

I just couldn't bring myself to run a 2 tribute that does not work with the monarch staples for the sake of maybe unbricijg your hand.  Again Jack's knight or the witch would just be better imo.

 

What the thoughts on mega zaborg as a ba side or rogue deck ls that run dark law.  I feel like if you main mithra there's a great chance it will go off.  And then you lost c amount of extra deck cards but monarchs barely run thru 6 xyz in a game.  But u could straight up make it to where your opponent can't play.  I just really do not like ghost cherry.

I just want to make sure you understand this because it seems like you do not. Gem-Knight Crystal is a Gem-Knight monster. Dark Witch, Jack's Knight, and Metaphys Armed Dragon are not.

No one is saying you should run Garnet and Crystal, no one is saying you should run Lazuli and Crystal, and no one is saying you should run Garnet and Metaphys Armed Dragon. Obviously if you think it's worth it you'd run Lazuli and an appropriate normal monster, but if you don't then Crystal seems way better than Garnet. I'd say the highest contributor to bricks comes from not drawing a tribute monster, so if you can replace a shitty level four monster with a shitty monster that can trigger Return with no additional cost to you, you probably should. 

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»Digbick    7257
6 hours ago, Master Destroyer (Wu-Tang) said:

But Garnet is too good vs. demise as I think you mentioned before.

I've literally blow in out with just ganet, its weird. Even sided out brilliant and left garnet because brilliant was just bad (he was playing the fosiil dyna deck)


I think i've won around 7-8 games just by Ganet's attack and being able to normal summon it. Also, games where the opponent just sets backrow and passes its very clutch to use garnet as a way to play through trap cards and kill the opponent. 

I even had a garnet Drowning mirror forced this way and I had brilliant in my hand so I started jumping up and down and chearing.


Garnet = Life
Garnet = Love

Live & Breathe Garnet

why dont you just replace your entire deck with vanilla beater since you think Garent is so goooodd

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2 hours ago, Oh_The_Irony said:

 

I just want to make sure you understand this because it seems like you do not. Gem-Knight Crystal is a Gem-Knight monster. Dark Witch, Jack's Knight, and Metaphys Armed Dragon are not.

No one is saying you should run Garnet and Crystal, no one is saying you should run Lazuli and Crystal, and no one is saying you should run Garnet and Metaphys Armed Dragon. Obviously if you think it's worth it you'd run Lazuli and an appropriate normal monster, but if you don't then Crystal seems way better than Garnet. I'd say the highest contributor to bricks comes from not drawing a tribute monster, so if you can replace a shitty level four monster with a shitty monster that can trigger Return with no additional cost to you, you probably should. 

I understand that.  Personally I'd rather just run Garnet or Jack's lazuli.  In my own playing my bricks aren't from not being able to trigger return it's just drawing unplayable hands.  Being locked out of tenacity and stuff.  I just don't think it justifies running a 2 tribute vanilla just because it's a gem knight.  I feel that it would just clog your hand more.  Plus garnet can at least be normal summoned if u don't have stormforth Etc

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dexer008    805

It was mentioned a while back but dismissed pretty easily, but what do people think of the card 'The Tricky'. 

It is basically Red Layer 4-6.

It can ditch erebus from hand, or a dead pantheism if you're unlucky to draw any other s/t. You can also ditch red layers in hand to later add back when you summon another red layer. 

It's lv5 for xyz plays....

 

I was going to play monarchs for the WCQ this year but my fear for the inherent problems with monarchs made me chose pendulum instead. If I did however had chosen to play monarch it would have been this more then likely, (the side would have probably been different). It was originally running 1 garnet and 3 brilliant, because garnet still sucked to draw, but the deck plays more rank 5 plays to make the durandal to shuffle it back so there is that. The main idea with the deck in the first place was to run 6 cards that let you double tribute summon turn 1, which is what I think makes the deck get so far ahead. That felt slightly inconsistent  though in comparison to just running the deck more focused on what it does best, tribute summon and make rank 5 power plays, and running more monarch combo pieces. I'ld thought I'd post it for those still yet to have their event or have something coming up and wanted to try something different. A friend of mine even took out some of the tricky's and extra deck to make it more like the old domain/thestalos builds which still a pretty potent vs most things in the meta. But I really think the card is neat and people dismissed the idea too quickly and are instead are trying to fit cards in the deck that try to raise the decks's power level and lower it's consistency when really running more cards that just make it do the same thing might just be what you need to play 11 rounds to the best of your ability without being flunked over by something you can control in your deck building if that makes sense....

http://imgur.com/4xsZqFI

 

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Muntz    52

Why play The Tricky when you can just play Quickdraw and have Ultimaya access?

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Blacklisted    1329
4 hours ago, digbick the pickleman said:

why dont you just replace your entire deck with vanilla beater since you think Garent is so goooodd

Why don't you just marry Garnet?

 

 

In regards to The Tricky, you're just better off either playing Quickdraw or even Primitive Butterfly

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»Jeff Jones    13262

Clearly I'm one of the biggest QuickDraw fans, however I feel like Quickdraw sucks in the mirror, and tzolkin really only shines against Kozmo which is already a great matchup for you.

its just alright against BA turn 1. It's really just super underwhelming.

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Odin_21    9
22 minutes ago, Jeff Jones said:

Clearly I'm one of the biggest QuickDraw fans, however I feel like Quickdraw sucks in the mirror, and tzolkin really only shines against Kozmo which is already a great matchup for you.

its just alright against BA turn 1. It's really just super underwhelming.

I agree with Jeff here, tzolkin and crytsal wing is only really good against kozmo turn 1 and with island there also have ways to play around it. Against all other decks you need also a monarch besides quickdraw, but realisticly the chances of drawing a monarch + quickdraw + discard + panth, prime/BF + domain are imo too low. So I also wouldnt play it.

But I have a question to your deck at ycs origins, you played with the squires and with BF, can you explain why you choose to play squires over speedroids, quantums, mithra and why you play BF pls? Because imo if you play BF with garnet you just adding more extra power to your deck wich is not essentially needed, if you play with 1 lazuli and 1 jacks knight/dark witch, BF gets you to your best play (ehther, sf) with just 1 card. However I also wouldnt play this BF engine, becausw mike convinced me with his arguments in this thread that this also concedes into more bricks with lazuli and jacks knight. 

To the squires: There are important in the mirror match, but outsides there loose to erf negation and if you play terrrortop there will negate your monarch, so you can trigger return and you still have a 2800 beater on the field. Also with speedroids you can out floodgates and try to unbrick hands with dante.

 

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dexer008    805
8 hours ago, Muntz said:

Why play The Tricky when you can just play Quickdraw and have Ultimaya access?

While no doubtly that quickdraw leads to some amazing monsters in the form of crystal wing etc, It eats up the extra deck I feel which could be more freely use to include multiples of volcasuarus or other rank 5's which you might want to run multiple of or gaia charger, and keep in mind that quickdraw requires you to discard a monster which limits the amount of plays you can do, while the tricky can make anything work. Yaowei I didn't know that buttefly card was even thing, so it's interesting, I think though the tricky might have more value due to it's 2000 atk and like I've mentioned you can make the discard do work for those awkward hands.

Those ultimately are the differences I see but this is the second time now the idea has been shot down so I'll drop it since it looks to be unpopular opinion. 

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Dunko_Sekka    15

My issue with the quickdraw build is the discard cost. To stop the discard being as bad I'd want to play lots of copies of edea and eidos, but I've stopped liking those cards in the first place due to effect negation. So quickdraw would then make me play a bad ratio of another card to justify it, which I don't think is correct to do. Then there's all the situations where making ultimaya isn't the best play, such as if I have to stormforth, if I can't clear return, if I know they have any real traps/dark destroyer/ehther + stormforth, in all those other situations I'd rather just have another red layer. 

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8 hours ago, Odin_21 said:

I agree with Jeff here, tzolkin and crytsal wing is only really good against kozmo turn 1 and with island there also have ways to play around it. Against all other decks you need also a monarch besides quickdraw, but realisticly the chances of drawing a monarch + quickdraw + discard + panth, prime/BF + domain are imo too low. So I also wouldnt play it.

But I have a question to your deck at ycs origins, you played with the squires and with BF, can you explain why you choose to play squires over speedroids, quantums, mithra and why you play BF pls? Because imo if you play BF with garnet you just adding more extra power to your deck wich is not essentially needed, if you play with 1 lazuli and 1 jacks knight/dark witch, BF gets you to your best play (ehther, sf) with just 1 card. However I also wouldnt play this BF engine, becausw mike convinced me with his arguments in this thread that this also concedes into more bricks with lazuli and jacks knight. 

To the squires: There are important in the mirror match, but outsides there loose to erf negation and if you play terrrortop there will negate your monarch, so you can trigger return and you still have a 2800 beater on the field. Also with speedroids you can out floodgates and try to unbrick hands with dante.

 

Where did u see his list at

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Also today is my best of the city tournament.  This is what I've decided to play. Any comments or tweaks for the build would be appreciated.  But I have decided to play BF and will not play another variant.  I really like brilliants raw power and my local meta is mostly monarch and ba so the otk power is real.  I do need help selecting card 15 for the side

 

Screenshot_2016-06-25-11-53-23.png

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In a Deck with searching, Squires and especially Brilliant Fusion it might actually be better than 40 without the Upstart or at least not as terrible as it looks. It only really goes against the hand traps.

Should still cut 1 card tho.

 

 

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»TS Fearless    7067

There are decks where you can maybe justify Upstart as the 41st card. Monarch is not one of them. You can't activate Upstart after thinning your deck if you can't play at all lol.

I wrote an article about a program we've been using to test ratios. Maybe it might help someone. Please excuse the padding.

 

 

I've been more active in real life Yu-Gi-Oh lately than I have been over the past few years. Up until recently I hadn't actually attended a Regional Qualifier since 2013. I got my invites for the 2014 and 2015 World Championship Qualifiers at YCS Chicago two years running so there was no need to play in any Regionals. When I first read the Monarch and Performapal cards I knew this year's WCQ format was going to be complicated and skill intensive, so I decided that this year I'd be more active in the dueling community and go to events I would've skipped otherwise.


At the beginning of March I went 9-0 at a St. Louis Regional with a Monarch deck featuring Thestalos the Firestorm Monarch, no Edea, and triple Escalation of the Monarchs. Next I went to YCS Last Vegas where I failed miserably, losing to Super Quantums and two Performapal decks, getting knocked out in Round 8. My next event was a Regional Qualifier again in St. Louis where my friend and I piloted the same deck; he went 8-0 and I made Top 8 as well. The next event – a Regional in Altoona, Iowa - was another failure. I took a 3-2 record and dropped.

But those failures at YCS Vegas and Altoona were showing me something; I needed to prioritize consistency with any Monarch deck ran, and I needed to be more realistic about what I was and wasn't allowed to do when it came to deck building. Those losses were way more important than the Top 8 finishes, which only taught me something I already knew: that Monarchs have the most powerful engine. That was effectively useless information.

The most recent event I attended saw me returning yet again to the city of St. Louis, but this time it was for an ARG Circuit Series tournament. I was extremely confident in my deck list and barring Burning Abyss, actually felt like it was the most consistent deck in the room. Here's what I played to a Top 16 finish:

3 Ehther the Heavenly Monarch
2 Erebus the Underworld Monarch
3 Kuraz the Light Monarch
1 Mithra the Thunder Vassal
1 Mobius the Frost Monarch
1 Speedroid Taketomborg
3 Speedroid Terrortop
1 Super Quantum Blue Layer
2 Super Quantum Red Layer
Monsters [17]
1 Domain of the True Monarchs
2 Emergency Teleport
2 Instant Fusion
3 Pantheism of the Monarchs
3 Return of the Monarchs
3 Tenacity of the Monarchs
3 The Monarchs Stormforth
2 Twin Twisters
1 Upstart Goblin
Spells [20]
3 The Prime Monarch

Yes, I know it's Monarchs. I also know that Monarchs have a bad rep for bricking the most out of every deck currently in competition, but I want to attribute that to subpar deck building. I really do think this deck draws un-winnable hands less frequently than strategies like Fire King Kozmo, Demise Kozmo, and Performapal.
By “unplayable” I mean hands that aren't good enough to win the game against an opponent who drew any kind of decent hand, not straight unplayable hands. You don't get any bonus points for making a couple of plays before you lose the game, so scoring a win with a sub par hand should mean the same thing to you as straight bricking in the grand scheme of things.

Mathematics
I think this deck's well built for a lot of different reasons. The first is the strong math behind the card choices and ratios which is something most players ignore during deck building. It was important to us to figure out how many cards to run that we could reveal for Tenacity of the Monarchs. We needed to find the point where we'd suffer diminishing returns on the percentage increase of a live Tenacity; we wanted to run as few reveal cards as possible so we could avoid hands clumped with tribute monsters.


To do that we first had to pick a range of cards to test. We went with seven as a minimum and fourteen as a maximum. Then we wanted to find the odds that Tenacity would be live if it appeared in our opening hand of five cards. To do that we'd just assume our opening hand had Tenacity, because you don't care about what happens when you don't open with it. At that point you just need to find the odds that a four-card hand contains one of your seven to fourteen reveals, since the last card of the five is Tenacity itself. To do that you just use a Hypergeometric Calculator, like the one that can be found here.

Notice that we ignored small variables like Pantheism of the Monarchs, because those aren't plays that you can rely on seeing in every opening hand. You put 39 in the population size, the number of reveal cards in the successes slot, four for the sample size, and one of the successes in the sample slot. Do that, and this is what you end up getting:

7 = 56%

8 = 62%

9 = 67%

10 = 71%

11 = 75%

12 = 79%

13 = 82%

14 = 85%

As you can see from 7 to 8 is a huge jump in percentage at 6%, and from 8 to 9 is still a 5% increase. 9 isn't a horribly high number of Tribute Summons to play, so we want to take advantage of those high percentages. From 9 to 10 is where things start to diminish; at that point your chances only go up 4%, and it continues that way from 10 to 12. That means you start seeing diminishing returns after crossing the nine card threshold, which is what led us to play 9 Tribute Summons for Tenacity.

The cool part is that these percentages increase when you're going second and start with six cards instead of five. Seven Tribute Summons is actually the correct number when you start with six cards, which means you can side a couple out going second without messing up your consistency. Once you have the numbers figured out, you get to pinpoint exactly how changes and Side Decking can affect your deck, and you can do a better job of managing your ratios and percentages. That's important to any deck if you want to keep consistency up, but it's especially key in a strategy like Monarchs, that has a more significant chance to draw unplayable hands if you aren't careful.

Probability And Ratios
There's a program created by a group called GlasgowYGO that helped us a lot. The first step is to type your main deck into the program. Then on the side you tell the program a certain combination. For example, you could type Speedroid Terrortop + Erebus the Underworld Monarch and then the program will run 100,000 test hands and tell you the likeliness of opening that specific combination over that many hands. We were able to go into the program and change it to 1,000,000 hands at a time to get an even more accurate number, even though it was only a slight difference.
The best thing about this program is the fact that you can put as many card combinations in at once and it'll run the probability of seeing at least one of those combinations in every hand it draws. That let us input every single combination of cards that we felt would give us a good enough opening to win the game. But remember, if you do this you mustn't forget any combinations. Take the card Speedroid Terrortop for example. There are a ton of combinations to input for just that one card:

Terrortop + Erebus

Terrottop + Ehther

Terrortop + Kuraz + Return

Terrortop + Kuraz + Tenacity

Terrortop + Kuraz + Panth + Prime

Terrortop + Kuraz + Panth + Stormforth

Terrortop + Kuraz + Panth + Domain

Terrortop + Kuraz + Panth + Panth

Terrortop + Mobius + Return

Terrortop + Mobius + Tenacity

Terrortop + Mobius + Panth + Prime

Terrortop + Mobius + Panth + Stormforth

Terrortop + Mobius + Panth + Domain

Terrortop + Mobius + Panth + Panth

Terrortop + Red Layer + Return + Stormforth

Terrrotop + Red Layer + Return + Tenacity

Terrortop + Red Layer + Panth + Prime

Terrortop + Red Layer + Panth + Stormforth

Terrortop + Red Layer + Panth + Domain

Terrortop + Red Layer + Panth + Panth

Terrortop + Emergency Teleport + Return + Stormforth

Terrortop + Emergency Teleport + Return + Tenacity

Terrortop + Emergency Teleport + Panth + Prime

Terrortop + Emergency Teleport + Panth + Stormforth

Terrortop + Emergency Teleport + Panth + Domain

Terrortop + Emergency Teleport + Panth + Panth

I don't have the program on me so there may be more combos we had to account for, but just off the top of my head, these are all the combos with Terrortop that will give you a good start to the game; draws you're happy to see in your opening hand. The list is so extensive partly because Pantheism can search Return from your deck, so you can include Pantheism plus any monarch spell or trap and still count that as opening with Return.

After Terrortop's finished in that fashion, you have to go through every card in the deck until you're done. Once you've done that you can tell the program to draw 1,000,000 hands and you'll be able to see how many "good" opening hands you can get out of your list of 40 cards.

All you have to do when you make a single change is to tweak your deck list and add the new combinations including the new card. You don't have to go back and erase the combinations with the card you took out, because the probability of the old combinations including it will automatically go down if there are fewer copies, or become zero if there are no copies left.

The program let us see the small percentage differences each card carried with it, and it's how we arrived at our number of Tribute Monsters, tribute fodder, and also how we decided which cards of each type we ran, whether it was double or single Tribute Monsters, or specifically which fodder we used. Cards like the one Mithra the Thunder Vassal offered a ton of combos and thus boosted the overall consistency of the deck. Knowing that, the seemingly random copy makes more sense.

The best part is that all our numbers are ignoring opening the notion of Pantheism drawing you into new cards, and it also ignores things like Terrortop played into Dante, Traveler of the Burning Abyss which then mills Pantheism or Erebus. Although rare, those things do happen and only boost the consistency of the deck even further beyond the base calculations. By figuring out the bare minimum, you get a number you can realistically expect, but you always know that it has the potential to be even better.

Boosting Consistency Through Solving Other Problems
Once you use math to figure out the numbers, there isn't much more you can do as deck building with ratios goes. One thing you can do is to look at the other reasons why your deck loses outside of bricking. For Monarchs that includes floodgates and powerful game changing trap cards like Mask of Restrict, Chaos Trap Hole, and Magic Deflector. It also includes cards that can stop your Normal Summon before you get to make a Tribute Summon and trigger Return to search for Ehther the Heavenly Monarch to play on your opponent's turn. If you can fix those other problems you're indirectly boosting the consistency of your deck, because you can essentially compensate for "bricking more" if you're eliminating these other losses.


Speedroid Terrortop fixes both of those problems singlehandedly and that's why I'm such an advocate of the Speedroid engine as opposed to Edea the Heavenly Squire and Eidos the Underworld Squire. Terrortop doesn't use your Normal Summon, so even if it gets stopped by a trap card or Effect Veiler, you might still have a play depending if your hand's good enough. Terrortop's also a Level 3 monster that gives you access to the Rank 3 Super Quantal Mech Beast Grampulse to destroy those powerful traps, before you use it as tribute fodder.

The major downside is drawing Speedroid Taketomborg, but even the impact of that can be mitigated. Instant Fusion gives you access to Dragoness the Wicked Knight, a Level 3 Wind monster. It lets you Special Summon Taketomborg for double Tribute Summon or for a Dante to try to mill Erebus if you have to. Emergency Teleport pairs with it as well; if you don't have a tribute monster or way to get to Return you can simply make a Grampulse with Super Quantum Blue Layer and Taketomborg instead.

It's nowhere near a power play, but it's far better than nothing. If you can catch your opponent on a hand where they need to resolve cards like Fire King Island, Return of the Monarchs, or Pendulum Scales, your Quick Effect Grampulse is going to buy you some time to draw out of your brick hand.

Terrortop does everything you want in one card. In my opinion it's severely underrated.

The Win Button
The last thing I want to go over is the Zaborg the Mega Monarch plus Escalation of the Monarchs combo that people either seem to not know, or choose not to play. It almost guarantees a win against any deck as long as you draw the right cards to combo off and your opponent doesn't stop it. You just need to open with a hand that lets you trigger Return and search Escalation. You're going to search Ehther off Return and have a tribute summoned monster on your field.


On your opponent's turn you're going to tribute your monster for Ehther and trigger its ability and Return's effect. You're going to search Mega Zaborg off Return and special summon Erebus off Ehther by sending Prime and another card to the graveyard. Next you're going to bring back Prime, and then flip Escalation to tribute Prime and Erebus for Mega Zaborg. You're going to target Ehther with Mega Zaborg to yard eight cards of your choosing from your opponent's Extra Deck while sending copies of Omega to the graveyard for yourself. At that point you have Mega Zaborg, Return, and Escalation on the field with Ehther and Erebus in your grave. If you have a monarch spell or trap in your hand you can use Erebus to bring Ehther back to your hand and Summon it again that turn.

Is this combo needed, or is it just win more since it's assuming that you're already opening with a hand that could trigger Return? It's hard to say, especially since including the combo in your deck is taking away valuable space and adding potential bricks. But it's there, and I think it's important to think about.

That's it! Hopefully now you have a better understanding of how Brady Brink, Mitch Noggle, and I built our Monarch deck for this event. Hopefully this article helps in your future deck building endeavors; a lot of these concepts are easily transferable to other decks. Until next time!

-Mike Steinman

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»Satchmo    3220
27 minutes ago, TS Fearless said:

There are decks where you can maybe justify Upstart as the 41st card. Monarch is not one of them. You can't activate Upstart after thinning your deck if you can't play at all lol.

I wrote an article about a program we've been using to test ratios. Maybe it might help someone. Please excuse the padding.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Can you inbox me the link to the article? I needed something like this since I wanted to post about mathematics on the forum anyway.

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Oh_The_Irony    771

Where do you post these articles/have you written any others? And where is the link for the program created by GlasgowYGO? I tried looking for something similar a couple days ago, but all I could find were the programs created by Inexorably, which unfortunately do not seem to work on Macs. Thanks!

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»Noelle    5847

I haven't been playing much (but am relearning for nationals) and am a bit confused about the Mega Zaborg thing. It's mostly for BA and Pendulum I assume? Also, are you talking about Psy-Frame Omega or a different card, and either way, what's the benefit to having whatever that card is in the Graveyard?

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Gibbination    307

When you send your xyza for zaborg you send omegas and you can use then to recycle a card in either players grave  ask to the deck

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Gibbination    307

When you send your xyza for zaborg you send omegas and you can use then to recycle a card in either players grave  ask to the deck

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Ling Ling    2
13 hours ago, Oh_The_Irony said:

Where do you post these articles/have you written any others? And where is the link for the program created by GlasgowYGO? I tried looking for something similar a couple days ago, but all I could find were the programs created by Inexorably, which unfortunately do not seem to work on Macs. Thanks!

I didn't actually know that the program existed either, but I assume that this is what he's talking about. https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9qm7ko7lt0bis2/GYGO Combo Calc.zip?dl=0

As for running .exe's on mac I'm currently using winebottler which is basically an alternative to boot camping your mac or just buying a pc.

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»TS Fearless    7067
23 hours ago, Oh_The_Irony said:

Where do you post these articles/have you written any others? And where is the link for the program created by GlasgowYGO? I tried looking for something similar a couple days ago, but all I could find were the programs created by Inexorably, which unfortunately do not seem to work on Macs. Thanks!

Tcgplayer

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