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»Tygo    14313
2 hours ago, Jojo. said:

Why dopeople run abyssmander?

I figured this out reading the same page. Little effort goes a long way.

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Jujuuu.    37

My bad, I couldn't find it initially. Anyways, I feel running steam synchron alongside accel synchron is pretty neat because you can make number 38 alongside a treetoad (or two), for a more established board. It's worth the try imo. It only takes up 1 slot in the main and extra deck. Also for those running a 3/1 infantry/marksman ratio, it supports that.

Edited by Jojo.

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+Logic    2040

Does Inferno Reckless Summoning belong in the Toad deck? I don't play anymore, but it sounds good if a common board state just consist of XYZ's

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Mr Cook    474
10 hours ago, Jojo. said:

My bad, I couldn't find it initially. Anyways, I feel running steam synchron alongside accel synchron is pretty neat because you can make number 38 alongside a treetoad (or two), for a more established board. It's worth the try imo. It only takes up 1 slot in the main and extra deck. Also for those running a 3/1 infantry/marksman ratio, it supports that.

 

I don't understand how this helps make a 38, are you saying have a Megalo/Teus boosted by Abyssmander, and make an Accel Synchron boosted up to L8?

 

This doesn't seem like a reliable combo at all.

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+Digbick    7376
14 hours ago, Jojo. said:

Why dopeople run abyssmander?

Screenshot_6.png

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herbie ✌    1346

You dont need Mander for the combo, Moulinglacia is 8.

Edited by herbie ✌
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Mr Cook    474
1 hour ago, herbie ✌ said:

You dont need Mander for the combo, Moulinglacia is 8.

 

That makes more sense, I blanked that Moulin was an 8.

 

The standard Diva + Water combo being Diva > Nepta, send Goons add Goons add Megalo, summon Megalo, search Moulin and sync for Tatsunoko to set-up the 5 in grave.

You would then need to have hard-drawn Infantry to be able to make the Accel to send Steam to boost Accel to L8. This seems super situation since you need to hard-draw Diva and Infantry.

 

Are there any other realistic ways where you can make Accel during your combo and it be an optimal play if you do play the Accel + Steam engine? I'm seeing Diva + Marksman makes Accel but you almost always get Nepta/Infantry off your Diva, not sure what else really makes it, Crystron Quandax + Neptabyss? Or is there something I'm missing.

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Jujuuu.    37

You summon diva and activate its eff to special summon Prince.

You activate prince eff to search infantry.

You synch into child dragon (You should have a moulin in your hand through a dragoons search or by opening hand).

You summon accel synchron (you have 5 waters in grave now).

Special moulinglacia and activate its eff obviously.

Dump steam synchron to increase accel by 3, making it lvl 8.

Overlay into number 38 (and depending on your hand you still have plays to make for additional monsters).

 

and this only requires you to open diva and not draw steam synchron. lol I pull this combo off often and when I do so, I usually win from there (game one and post siding).

Edited by Jojo.
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Mr Cook    474
6 minutes ago, Jojo. said:

You summon diva and activate its eff to special summon Prince.

You activate prince eff to search infantry.

You synch into child dragon (You should have a moulin in your hand through a dragoons search or by opening hand).

You summon accel synchron (you have 5 waters in grave now).

Special moulinglacia and activate its eff obviously.

Dump steam synchron to increase accel by 3, making it lvl 8.

Overlay into number 38 (and depending on your hand you still have plays to make for additional monsters).

 

and this only requires you to open diva and not draw steam synchron. lol I pull this combo off often and when I do so, I usually win from there (game one and post siding).

 

Okay I'm dumb ignore my previous post.

 

I like the combo, does Accel ever come up aside from opening Diva?

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Jujuuu.    37

Since there's only two tuners in your deck, you can essentially use accel for that easilly accessible 3rd tuner (more acess to synchro summon plays and pops essentially). Decreasing it's level to 3 and make other synchro plays. I run coral dragon and gungir. 

 

Edit: If you draw steam, it's not the end of the world because it's a level 3 tuner and a pitchable w/ megalo.

2nd edit: I just though about it. It might not come up too often due to it being a synchro itself but outside of using it turn one it has it's applications.

Edited by Jojo.

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herbie ✌    1346

You will almost never use Accell as a level 2 tuner, honestly Im not sure its worth the spot considering the combo involves opening Diva or Teus/Megalo + Dragoons which usually mean you can just make Trish/Moulinglacia plays and not run bad cards just to make Hope.

Toadally Awesome basically does what Hope does without making as many concessions in your main/extra deck.

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Carter Wix    4

Since this thread has been dead I would like to add things to it. Recently there has been a rise in popularity in go 2nd build of water playing cards such as twin twisters, kaijus, maxx, and raigeki dark hole and while this version has the added advantage of always getting its desired die roll it has many problems with overly large boards or any strong board that you dont have go 2nd cards for so does that mean the toad go 1st build is correct as you can just win every game you go first with a good hand and hopefully win around 50% of the time you go 2nd or just build a deck completely made to go 2nd

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Punctuation will go a long way. For your point, I think that siding into a build that is best going first when you know you'll be going first (if you think the sided build is stronger going first after losing a game or if your opponent's deck will want to go second post-siding and they lost the previous game) and maining a build that will be a lot better going second (since most decks right now prefer going first and you'll have the other 50% of the die roll to choose second) is ideal.

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Mr Cook    474

I think it's always worth exploring blind 2nd in a format where everyone wants to go first, that being said I had a look at a going 2nd build and it just doesn't beat the standard openings of other decks consistently enough.

 

Like, even when playing the going first variant, and siding 12 cards into a going 2nd variant going 2nd vs ABC/Metalfoes you can't consistently win those games. That's with 3 System Down, 3 Reaper, Twins and Kaijus in against ABC, and too often your openings just don't beat their openings. Same goes for Metalfoes, your removal doesn't always line up well with their openings, i.e. they have Kirin when you have Twins, or they have double Alkahest when you have board clears. The issue with a going 2nd variant is that this deck doesn't grind well, you have one turn to kill them and too many of the boards made going 1st are just really resilient to you dealing 8k through them (Fullmetalfoes/Alkahest, and Buster floating into 4 guys + Traps) - you also open yourself up to Hero boards which are a nightmare to deal with, and you can't realistically OTK paleozoics going 2nd either.

 

Getting to go 1st is just super important this format, even with people maining/siding Maxx C, there are ways to sorta play around it. Your standardish T1 openings should very rarely be worse than double Bahamut double Toad, more frequently there's a Moulinglacia involved and you have so many auto-wins. The reason to play this deck would be that it has as many auto-wins as the other top decks when going 1st, and is able to steal a few G1 wins due to the higher ceiling when compared to something like ABC, in practice I don't believe this deck can be played as a "go 2nd" deck, the Atlantean "kill you"cards were really good a few years ago, but are just super weak this format to almost everything.

 

For what its worth, I'm talking a break till YCS Prague to focus on other stuff, but here was my most recent list if anyone wants to play about, I played it at Bochum and scrubbed, but there was a lot of theory behind the choices and a lot of practice etc.

 

3 Neptabyss/2 Infantry/2 Dragoons/1 Diva
3 Teus/2 Megalo/2 Pike/2 Gunde/1 Ocea/1 Mander
3 Swap/1 Ronin
3 Aqua Spirit/1 Moulinglacia
2 Gameciel
3 Moray/2 Desires/1 Upstart
3 Instant/1 One for One
1 Abyss-Sphere
-
3 Toad/2 Bahamut
Dweller/Castel
Gaios/Big Eye/Draco
Tatsunoko/Quandax/Coral/Gungnir
Norden
-
3 Reaper/1 Buster/1 Dark Law
3 System Down
3 Typhoon
2 Twin Twisters
1 Megalo/1 Gameciel

Edited by Mr Cook
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Carter Wix    4

Im actually terrible with punctuation so I just dont use it but anyways I agree with the point of even the going 2nd build doesnt consistently beat the good boards where people go first making you give away a lot of games where you win the roll that you should have just won because your deck does more going first than theirs does

Edited by Carter Wix
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There's also another pretty neat combo that came up with ocea.

 

Hand starts with IF, pike, hilde.

 

Summon pike, eff pitch hilde, search ocea, hilde eff summon ocea.

 

Ocea eff on pike, summon mander.

 

IF for norden, norden target hilde. 

 

Now you have a field of 2 4s and 2 3s that doesn't require teus/megalo in hand. This is probably already known but I thought I'd share because I've not run into this situation until now. Additionally, I definitely think it's still optimal to build the deck to go first. I played around with it a bit (obviously not enough to be statistically significant but that kind of time doesn't exist) and I think the additional win % one would get going second with the build meant to blind second doesn't increase the overall winrate enough to compete with the build built to blind first. The blind second deck would have to have more than a 60% winrate when going second to be able to compete (I assumed it would go second 90% of the time and win going first 50% of the time while the blind first deck would go first 60% of the time and win going first ~80% of the time while winning going second ~30% of the time.) The problem is that even with these assumptions, the blind first is just slightly ahead. The problem with the assumptions is that I think the 60% winrate for going second is overstated, for reasons Mr Cook outlined in his post. If we drop the winrate to 50% from 60%, the overall winrate is now 50% vs the 60% for the blind first deck. While the exact numbers used aren't exact, the moral of the story is that the blind second version of the deck is incredibly reliant on a high winrate when going second, while the true nature of this winrate prevents the deck from being the superior option. 

 

The deck I'm currently looking at (and probably taking to the Atlanta Regional) looks something like this

 

VkkfmXB.gif

 

For siding, it typically looks like -1 mander, gunde, pike, ocea, hilde, and typically upstart or whatever the matchup calls for. This gives 6 slots in the main, which can fit 3x reapers + system downs for ABCs, 3x reapers + 3x monster removals against the mirror, heroes, etc. I'm not sure if reapering mithrillium against metalfoes is more significant than having monster removals and twin twisters but that matchup probably follows the same siding scheme as for the mirror. 

 

I originally had kaijus mained, however I concluded that they could be better cards going first and didn't do enough going second. While decreasing the winrate of the blind first build going second, it increased the winrate of the deck when going first. After moving them from the main into the side, I also concluded that I never really sided them in, as system down/raigeki/dark hole were typically better for getting rid of targets. 

 

I was on the fence about sphere vs abyss-scale but preferred sphere as mizuchi was typically easy to get over (activating scale/field spell, continuous spell, etc) while using sphere to get out pike and pitch heavy infantry was a much stronger play. The deck still has enough OTK potential without the +800, so I haven't really missed it much in that respect. 

 

I'm more than welcome to criticisms of my build and my explanations for card choices and thanks for taking the time to read.

Edited by LukeMatkovic
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I don't think I can edit my post anymore, but I'll give a brief writeup of my experience at the Atlanta regional. I went 5-3, where two of my losses were due to either incredibly bad luck (moray'd two monsters into 3 spells with one for one in hand, desires'd into two heavy infantry and banished both dragoons with the desires, bricked second game and just general average hands in the bubble against ABCs) or a single stupid mistake in which I banished heavy infantry from grave instead of neptabyss for aqua spirit because I didn't consider I'd get heavy infantry back with toad for the sphere I searched and instead searched for megalo with my last dragoons search instead of the second infantry for the sphere, which cost me the game because heavy infantry'ing my opponents guiturtle would've prevented him from having two scales and left him with a completely open board. My field was sphere, megalo, neptabyss, toad, and shark.

 

The card I'd consider cutting is moulinglacia, but even then I wouldn't really know which card would be better in its position. I've seen some people argue in favor of dropping the single marksman but it has come in handy with synchro plays (tatsunoko + marksman in hand for coral dragon) in addition to being a card I usually wanted to see when going second g1. Another smaller point to consider is that it allows for neptabyss to have a 5th card he can send/search, which minimizes the chances of him being dead in the case of using desires before being able to use neptabyss. I think this advantage is pretty small but it came in handy today at least once. I feel the side deck was good but I never got to use cherries on dark law/baxia because I never played against heroes or yang zings. Twin twisters didn't really come up but raigeki/dark hole won me at least 2-3 games. If I had to play again today, I don't think I would change the side deck at all. I also think the extra deck was either optimal or maybe one card off, though I wouldn't change it, either, if I got to play again.

 

After writing this up, I could see an argument for replacing the moulinglacia with a third megalo because you can still get the megalo (assuming you draw into multiples) onto the field with gunde or hilde, as this would open up a higher probability field for which you have a sphere + gaios. Overall, I'm a bit disappointed that such a silly mistake cost me a match and possibly an invite but I definitely enjoyed playing this deck.

 

Quick side note: I think sphere is absolutely the best card megalo can search because mizuchi can be so easily beaten (most any field spell, any pendulum scale, almost any continuous spell, dead spells, etc) while sphere can be used almost whenever you need to get rid of a card and it forces your opponent to make even more suboptimal plays than mizuchi would.

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»victor    6400

^ Why don't you play Rare Fish?

 

------------------------

 

This is an idea but the fact that Rare Fish is now available means that XYZ Remora finally has enough targets. E.g. you can make a XYZ with 2 Fish and revive them for Bahamut.

 

E.g. it lets you make Bahamut at 2600 who can attack + Bahamut + Toad + LV 4 WATER on field (to Trib for Megalo for example, or make another Shark).
 

The WATER restriction is not too bad because you can make Hope Woven Spider Shark (if you make that for the double detach, it still floats), Silent Honor ARK to attack for 4700+800, Ragnazero vs Tenki, Dweller, etc.

 

If anybody can think of a way to break XYZ Remora, that card SSes 3 LV 4 WATER monsters, that you can still Synchro with.

 

Does anybody have any ideas?

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Thanks for the reply. I have considered running rare fish as it not only allows for norden not to be wasted in the double shark double toad start using the little mermails but apparently also allows for use with remora. The biggest downside seems to be that it's nonsearchable, though it seems to fit a better purpose than moulinglacia would be when going first if the goal is double shark + double toad or anything really, as it can still be pitched just like moulinglacia but it is also a norden target when in grave. Hope woven seems especially good with this because you can start with 37 + megalo and end up with double shark, double toad, and megalo or similar.

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»victor    6400
6 hours ago, LukeMatkovic said:

Thanks for the reply. I have considered running rare fish as it not only allows for norden not to be wasted in the double shark double toad start using the little mermails but apparently also allows for use with remora. The biggest downside seems to be that it's nonsearchable, though it seems to fit a better purpose than moulinglacia would be when going first if the goal is double shark + double toad or anything really, as it can still be pitched just like moulinglacia but it is also a norden target when in grave. Hope woven seems especially good with this because you can start with 37 + megalo and end up with double shark, double toad, and megalo or similar.

 

You can search it with Generation Force or Mermaid Shark, but the latter wastes your NS for a weak Stratos.

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atem16    286

I know extra keeps getting tighter but there's a combo with diva and instant fusion that lets you end with ultimaya, crystal wing and moulin glacia

 

Diva summon prince send dragoons add infantry
Dragoons adds moulinglacia.
Synchro diva and prince for tatsunoko
(3 in grave )
Synchro tatsunoko and infantry for level 5 synchro
( 5 in grave)
Summon moulinglacia
Instant fusion for new fusion tuner
Send fusion and level 5 synchro for ultimaya summon crystal wing or whatever

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2 hours ago, atem16 said:

I know extra keeps getting tighter but there's a combo with diva and instant fusion that lets you end with ultimaya, crystal wing and moulin glacia

 

Diva summon prince send dragoons add infantry
Dragoons adds moulinglacia.
Synchro diva and prince for tatsunoko
(3 in grave )
Synchro tatsunoko and infantry for level 5 synchro
( 5 in grave)
Summon moulinglacia
Instant fusion for new fusion tuner
Send fusion and level 5 synchro for ultimaya summon crystal wing or whatever

Is that combo not objectively worse than making norden with instant fusion, summoning dragoons, making shark, sending goons to make toad, and searching something off of dragoons? You end up with the same number of negates but with an extra search + the recovery off of toad when you negate with it. Furthermore, you'll likely have enough cards in hand to change the order of the combo to also have leo on field with sphere set and heavy infantry/marksman in hand. Instead of tzolkin, crystal wing, and moul, you can have mou, leo, shark, toad, and sphere with pretty much the same cards unless you drew straight bricks with the rest of your hand.

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atem16    286
4 hours ago, LukeMatkovic said:

Is that combo not objectively worse than making norden with instant fusion, summoning dragoons, making shark, sending goons to make toad, and searching something off of dragoons? You end up with the same number of negates but with an extra search + the recovery off of toad when you negate with it. Furthermore, you'll likely have enough cards in hand to change the order of the combo to also have leo on field with sphere set and heavy infantry/marksman in hand. Instead of tzolkin, crystal wing, and moul, you can have mou, leo, shark, toad, and sphere with pretty much the same cards unless you drew straight bricks with the rest of your hand.

Most definetly it's a better play, but the off chance bahamut gets hit or something this can be an option. But yeah right now ultimaya and crystal aren't needed since we have access to bahamut with toad and Norden.

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