NB96

WATER - Discussion

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i dont think its that they dont want to go first, its that they less want to go second vs infinity/raff. oh i misread. well gaios, moulin, and abyss-scale are all you really have going first arent they, and gaios/scale needs merm

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Gaios gets hammered by mirror conductor and ignister which kinda sucks

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NB got the play right.

 

Matthew, does this mean you changed your view on not wanting to play bricks to justify other cards, considering you:

- Play one gemknight

- Play one trick clown, which isn't necessarily brick, but as you mentioned you also wouldn't really want to draw this most of the time

- Can double draw brilliant, or brilliant+garnet

- Drawing trick clown means brilliant only gets seraph and double summon, but not the dumping a good light monster

 

That seems worse than the 3/2 ratio in nekroz which already played damage jugg/trick clown

 

This is something I thought about a lot in building the deck. The first thing is, I didn't think and still don't think Brilliant upped the power that much in Nekroz (consistency aside,) whereas in Mermail it has a way more powerful function. I think the same holds true about it not being that powerful for the pendulum decks pre-bosh, where it was almost nothing more than a Foolish Burial for Damage Juggler (speaking of which, I actually think the card Jewels of the Valiant could have been incorporated that format a bit more.)

 

The other thing I realized about how Water works this format that also makes it a bit different from Nekroz is that as long as you see Diva/Neptabyss/Dragoons/Undine + Brilliant/Double Summon, it doesn't matter that much if you drew one or two bricks. When you don't see any of those, you're likely on a losing track anyway due to the power/consistency of the pendulum decks. This means you can actually justify a few more bricks once you maximize your chances of seeing those (within bounds of reason like we're not playing Into the Void etc,) because they're not actually decreasing the chance that you draw those cards. This might make you wonder about the justification for not playing Double Summon again, by that margin, and I'd say that it sort of falls into things like bounds of reason regarding consistency. Because the window for it is so narrow, it makes cards with a bit less power but that are able to be used /whenever/ drawn end up being justified over it. While I'm sure you're aware I think power is at least a little bit more important than consistency via the practical example I've given in the past, I just honestly believe this is one of those fringe cases.

 

Another point that I brought up to a friend the other day, opening double Brilliant in this deck, especially going second like you usually are, is actually pretty nifty in not ending up being that much of a brick because since this is sort of an OTK-centred deck, discarding the first copy for the second comes up often, and believe me also that if you were to play Double Summons, you would be seeing it come up even more because you had the same chance of seeing Brilliant + Double Summon as you did Brilliant + Undine.

 

The last point about that, yeah it almost is exactly just Double Summon when you draw the Trick Clown, but keep in mind the Level 5 with Diva even without the Clown is still going to be another discard making it more useful still than it would usually be in Nekroz. 

 

Hope the majority of that made sense, I just had to wake up to Ben Carson telling made up stories pandering to white people at a dinner table on TV.

 

I agree playing trick clown and brillant seems much better but I would still wanna play undine zzz

I don't agree with the mermails helping you go 1st they still don't really do anything at all

 

I do still play Undine x3, it wasn't nearly the problem in the function I believe, Double Summon Was.

 

On your second point, that's where I think you have it decisively wrong. Leed being the fourth discard might seem superfluous and fringe but it actually is both decently likely, makes Bahamut Shark a hell of a lot better (because I noticed you noting how you never played it,) and due to the power of the current pendulum deck we're obviously both aware how 3 cards can turn to several but how making nearly anything of only 2 is a stretch. There is also the function of increasing the chance you can discard Dragoons for cost going first with stuff like Teus, then again with the Trick Clown, to not have odd number of 4's Pike solves it (while doing the same with Dragoons etc.)

 

Yeah Gaios'd getting Mirror Conductored is pretty unfortunate, fortunately it's not a great deal of the time that they're able to do that before something like Joker to at least get it's effect off. Also, although I know you're probably talking about them attacking then m2 making it, but Gaios has a nifty effect that also makes Ignister unable to attack, and if equipped with a Spell, puts it above it to neg it's effect potentially.

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yea I think you have to play the clowns in some kind of capacity. when i played against kozmo artifacts at one point at regionals, I had to side out the veilers and ghost ogres because they didnt do anything and I forgot I was playing brilliant XD.

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I keep ghost ogre because wicked witch is hard to kill and you can still ghost ogre DD 

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Brilliant make Seraph revive Trick, normal Dragoon make Dweller, detach search Diva, summon and get Neppo, dump Dragoon add Moulinglacia and Atlantean, make Tatsunoko into Omega with Seraph, drop Moulinglace.

Not sure if theres a way to drop Trishula and Moulinglacia but I'm really tired so I wont get it no matter what

In builds that play enough spells (brilliant, double summon, upstart etc.), how would Summoner monk be?
It's basically another dragoons, works well with brilliant/double summon, and improves your odds of emptying the opponents hand. A build with maximized acces to dragoons/double summons, means you could also play Synchro fusionist. Dragoons/monk/undine search Diva, use brilliant/double summon, summon diva get prince, make Tatsunoko then make Trishula with synchro fusionist from hand and trick clown on field, search Instant fusion or brilliant fusion, play Moulinglacia. There might be a way to omega+trishula+moulin on the same turn as the 4th discard.


To matthew monohan:
 

Regarding Sleed and the other mermails, it's probably going to depend on how much Waters you play, but a lot of the times I've found myself without 3 waters to discard for it, especially if you also have to have Moulin, meaning all 5 cards in your hand should be water. Could still warrant playing though because it's searchable and you can discard it with teus/megalo when drawn, meaning it really wouldn't have to be consistent at all in order to warrant playing, if it's going to steal some games that's already enough. And for the other mermails, I don't know which combinations of them you'd like to draw, but with one of each how are you going to make sure you can use them? I can see you discarting them for teus/megalo when bad, but honestly you already got the atlanteans for that, so what are spike/gunde going to do most of the time beside being searchable by Teus. You won't always draw teus, you'll draw spike and gunde etc. by themselve, what's the plan in that case, or is it just that you consider Teus so valuable that it warrants the risk of drawing dead gunde etc.? The atlanteans are way more 'searchable' than the mermails, and I don't see this 'sleed as 4th discard' combo coming up much at all, but when it does it's very good needless to say. 

Another thing I noticed is this deck plays so many bricks, that you really have to watch out and you might want to take another approach to this deck than you would with other decks. While playing 3 of each best card is mostly true for most builds, in this deck, which already plays so much bricks and combo pieces that are only good when combined with certain other combo pieces, you might consider things such as:
- Cutting all traps
- Playing 2 of each card you don't want to draw double (maybe even cards such as instant fusion(clearing an extra deck space by cutting 2nd norden as well, maxx c if you aim to go first, etc )
Reason being, yes there's only a few % chances of drawing a garnet, or double instant, etc, but all these percentages really stack up, and especially when your tactic is to go both first and second, you should adjust your main deck accordingly 

I also don't like how you have to play at least controller, trick clown and garnet, which reduces the amount of bricks but also means that when you DO draw them, your brilliant or undine become dead and you outright lose of you draw them. Undine still being water and brilliant still a spell for monk, but it still sucks. You can then play a 2nd controller, light and garnet, but the problem I have then is: You still can't draw any if you want to brilliant or undine twice, and because you just added another odds of drawing this brick actually increases. Yes, sometimes you're able to double activate brilliant or undine, but that'd require you to draw both and being able to play both before drawing any copy of controller, the light or the garnet. Out of this, of course the light issue is the easiest solved since people already main veiler/ghost ogre, so playing 2/3+ lights isn't unthinkable, but the controller/garnet are still problems. mizuchi also sucks to draw

 

You might want to solve these hands with cards such as moray of greed and magical mallet, but problems are:
- Moray of greed doesn't reduce the bricks since they're light/earth, actually the waters are never that much dead anyway, so this card doesn't do much
- Magical mallet is a -1 always, and you have to draw it in combination with some bricks for it to have value, but even then it's not a - or a +, it's also a combo card because you only want to draw it combined with bricks or monk, and it's useless otherwise 

There's always emeral, but I doubt games last long enough for you to play a controller/garnet, emeral it, then play brilliant/undine and it not being too late 
 

Also, besides the one quoted, could you name other Mermail combo's, or hand emptying combo's? I think I've missed out on some myself, therefore limiting myself in deckbuilding/play'testing'

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Probably not the most consistent build to date but watching Norden hit the field 4 times in a single turn is definitely satisfying.

 

BUkOGER.jpg

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I don't know how I feel about playing brilliant fusion in mermails tbh, undine is great as well but they can contribute to many bricks
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Has anyone considered Synchro Fusionist in this deck? Obviously you don't want to waste a normal summon on it but in Water you don't have to since Tatsunoko lets you synchro with it from the hand. That gets you either Brilliant Fusion or Instant Fusion to branch out your combos further, only problem is you need a Diva for Tatsunoko and in that case your hand is already good. It might be win moar but searching Instant Fusion sounds pretty powerful in Water.
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is brilliant fusion really the way we should be going with this deck?

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After testing it Brillant is fantastic

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r ppl really gonna play stuff like rainbow kuriboh and the vylon tuner instead of a minimal performage engine to support brilliant? u can't even use rainbow kuriboh on kozmo ships n they can chain farm girl to it :/
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r ppl really gonna play stuff like rainbow kuriboh and the vylon tuner instead of a minimal performage engine to support brilliant? u can't even use rainbow kuriboh on kozmo ships n they can chain farm girl to it :/

Wouldnt be the first time a DG poster couldnt tell the difference between an obvious joke deck and a legit deck.

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well no one's laughing. how about you either show a legit deck or just shut up? 

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Im actually playing brillant with one trick clown >.>

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yea i know with trick clown you can make trishula instead of a level 8 synchro with undine and brilliant. 

 

the only problem im having with the deck currently is that I need to fill the deck with more cards since I felt the mermail part of the deck was too awkward to play imo.

 

so I am considering playing posiedra and call of the atlanteans since they are searchable through nept

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O this deck is easy to fill in fact I had to find room :/

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skeptical that trick clown is actually necessary

 

card seems like the definition of win-more and is only really needed if you draw brilliant + dragoons + 3-4 bricks

 

the deck has plenty of shitty cards to draw already (garnet, controller, mizuchi, extra brilliants, extra instant fusions) which it makes up for by only needing a few cards to otk but i think trick clown is really pushing it

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But mum I wanna be greedy

does it not trigger you every time you draw that stupid little clown

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But mum I wanna be greedy

does it not trigger you every time you draw that stupid little clown

 

 

Not when I draw it for one for one =)

Seriously its not as bad as garnet or mizichi(thats the worst one)

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Wouldnt any number of juggler (possibly even 1)+hat tricker be better than trick clown?
At least juggler provides a decent hand trap in deck that gives you something to draw off maxx.
 

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current build now has 3 veiler 3 ogre 3 maxx 3 chalice 2 hole 1 raigeki

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