• Announcements

    • rei

      Battle of the Anime Characters   02/10/17

      THE BATTLE OF THE ANIME CHARACTERS HAS BEGUN   Find it here http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?/forum/615-battle-of-the-anime-x/
NB96

WATER - Discussion

273 posts in this topic

People are being way too scared about these bricks. First, Damage Juggler and Hat Tricker are functionally just worse than Trick Clown when you play Brilliant, not to mention it's playing one more card for the same function, not to mention I think the whole "you can draw it under Maxx C" as the sole reason for something being ridiculous. I thought the same thing when people had 3 Maxx C and 1 Veiler. It's just so damn statistically negligible, and really should only be applicable if the deck OTKing you is a deck that special summons a shit ton like the Synchro deck from last format. Also, if you consider Ghost Ogre as another Light, it has the exact same relation with the Maxx Cs. Obviously Juggler does too, but we already discounted it with Trick Clown so the point is you still have a similar thing with Maxx but we're actually using both comparatively better cards when you're using Brilliant Fusion and also still have that marginal function, if you care so deeply about it. The conclusion? 1 Trick Clown and 1 Ghost Ogre/Veiler (whichever you think is currently better, I think most of us agree it's Ghost Ogre.)

 

On the bricks, people aren't understanding this isn't a 3-5 combo piece deck like pendulum decks are, it's a 1-3 combo piece deck. One for One, Diva, Neptabyss, Undine + Brilliant, Dragoons + a lot of cards, etc. Past that, going first, your hand doesn't matter as much but past that, going second, is the only time you might be more inclined to have more stuff to deal with what they did on turn one, be they Hand Traps, be they Twin Twister, etc. Even then you still leave 1-2 cards leeway and going second it's more like 1-3 cards leeway, and we're only talking about playing like 4 bricks anyway (Clown, Mizuchi, Garnet, Controller.) Where Undine + Controller and Garnet + Brilliant aren't that likely, and can still be mitigated with One for One, where you can otherwise draw like 2 of these and still be fine, I think we're really over exaggerating this. I actually originally wanted to play MORE of these, a second Controller, a second Garnet, etc to mitigate those small percentages under the idea that I'm not really comparatively increasing or decreasing my chances of seeing the actual combos, unless you count searching then using Upstart which is obviously also negligible.

 

I decided against this in favor of Water bricks that functionally solve similar problems. Namely, Beautuniful Princess, Steam Synchron for the Diva thing, the Mermails like Leed, etc. They're still functionally bricks but while One for One is only what mitigates Controller and Garnet, these are mitigated far more consistently via Megalo, Teus, and Leed. Princess actually isn't really even a brick, unless you draw it specifically with your one copy of Pike, in which case it's still just a Water to discard which is fine. The point of it is actually that when you draw One for One + combo, since you can already Nep One for One becomes superfluous so you use it to get Princess > Pike which combos with the nep that let you add Dragoons to then discard for the Pike.

 

This is what I'm operating on ATM (none of this is considering post-Monarchs right now):

 

2414007174d11274cad3faf6a5cea81a.png

 

Last 3 have been Maxx Cs but might take them out. Infantry is another one of kind of those Water bricks to me btw, and originally I only played 1 Infantry 1 Marksmen, but the Traptrix bitch presents kind of a problem for the normal summons in this deck so you want to discard the Infantry before-hand and shit with Teus, Meg, Leed, w/e. Also it mitigates some situations where you run out of Atlanteans to use with Nep. Also Steam Synchron isn't currently in here because it requires 2 Extra Deck cards and I can't figure out another to take out. I'm fine with taking out Dewloren because it's pretty useless but I think I would just use the other ones way more than the Synchron package and they would be more impactful because I can just do other shit anyways over the synchron play.

 

1bbcde19ebffded694f6b2f415cf5615.png

 

If anything, it would be taking out Trishula, which is actually summoned just way less than you think it is, but there are some times where you use the 2 tokens from Dracossack with Controller for it which is pretty cool and still lets you destroy a card before-hand tributing the Dracossack.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, I could just leave the Moulinglacia and not go for the Rank 8 I guess and just make Omega with the Tatsunoko and the only issue is leaving Moulinglacia up which I don't really even consider that much of a real issue. So I guess just those 14 + Accel.

 

EDIT: Wait nevermind I'm retarded, forgot the combo doesn't actually work like that. It would need the Rank 8 negate guy with Accel.

 

EDIT 2: Kozmo is another reason in favor of keeping Trishula because otherwise I wouldn't have much to deal with big ships bar Dweller boards.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why don't you play cards like Chanbara or Meteorburst Dragon?

Or even Flare Metal over Draccosack.

 

FWIW, Flare Metal + vanity's is also a mini lock.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This may sound obvious but isn't dweller just game over for this deck? Have been testing a very similar build lately and I feel the mermail/atlantean engine is even more explosive than pepe and has less stuff to worry about. (If you play the pepe mirror you have to worry about stuff like juggler and wavering and infinite hate vs rogue whereas mermails I have noticed have very minor counters to their plays) The only problem is that dweller is ironically the hardest problem a deck has to deal with since it comes up a lot consistently than the hate pepe has to deal with. (Main deck outs vs extra deck outs, extra deck is more consistent than drawing the actual side deck card)

With the release of twin twisters, pepe also has a lot of easier time to deal with the hate. Their engine also lets them deal with cards like Naturia Beast, Vanity's Fiend etc.

Maybe it is not a good idea to compare pepe and atlanteans but pepe is widely regarded as the best deck, so I had to go off that idea to explain why atlanteans CAN be the best deck IF they can solve their issues as well as pepe does.

Possible solutions:

1) Forbidden Chalice: Again, obvious, but deals well vs dweller and infinity, occasionally vs rafflesia but who would make that over dweller against us.

2) Flying C: Stops the dweller from being summoned, but with 5 cards in your hand and a defense postion flying c as well as 2/3/4 pendulum monsters, it will be difficult to otk.

I don't consider the kaijus as an out, simply because the good player will activate dweller on standby phase and pepe should have no trouble beating you the next turn.

I am also not mentioning that dweller is not only a game 2&3 problem, but also a very real issue game 1 as the tournament goes on and people know what you are playing, so if you are in top tables or in top cut, you can give your opponent a free game win if they do their research and know you play the atlantean deck.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
does moulin count as a dweller out? I know you're not actually stopping the eff but its a dude u can kill em with under dweller. maybe chums was on the right track b4

by the same token if u really wanna get ur victor on under their dweller I'm p sure u can summon dragoons with masked chameleon n go to town
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

does moulin count as a dweller out? I know you're not actually stopping the eff but its a dude u can kill em with under dweller. maybe chums was on the right track b4

by the same token if u really wanna get ur victor on under their dweller I'm p sure u can summon dragoons with masked chameleon n go to town

 

I don't think you can go to town in this deck by limiting yourself to only special summon from the extra deck for a turn.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dweller, like with back with the BA deck, is something I also think people OD about. Games don't go that long and the deck is built to hand combos T1 so their T2 Dweller is irrelevant and if they go first they won't know to make dweller G1 and games are short enough so that if you're not busting their shit on T2, and they're able to make Dweller etc T3, you've likely lost regardless due to how many cards they amassed if it is to be assumed that you couldn't amass your own and kill them, which is proper to assume in this case.

 

The answer to Dweller then will not come from the main but from the side, and will only come when you plan to go second post-side (spoiler, against pendulum decks that want to go first like Ariadne you should also be going first against them when you can choose, albeit it isn't that likely, but that is the value of scouting in the current format.) Regarding the side deck in general, I have some ideas. First, the Effect Equip to switch out for the Spell one in match-ups where it is better, which isn't a very revolutionary idea, but I have another idea too. if we're not playing only Megalo (which again I think is wrong, and not being able to do this is going to be another contradiction of it,) we should side 1 Linde and 1 Sphere against Kozmo. Consider how useless all 3 Equip Spells are against Kozmo. Effect? They can bait it out with Wickedwitch/Tincan/Goodwitch/Strawman/almost every little guy but the attack level 3 thing who's name escapes me right now, but even then that card isn't that good right now anyway (edit: Farmgirl is the name of the card.) The Spell one? Kozmotown just makes it shitty. The trap one? Obviously garbage as well, between the deck not playing many traps and the window for it being very narrow if you can even summon Megalo BEFORE they set traps.

 

Linde/Sphere on the other hand are floaters and the deck struggles with floaters as exemplified at that one ARG with Yang Zing. We should be switching out, in siding, the main decked Equip Spell against Kozmo, then, for those two. Regarding other side shit, with this build in particular, more Marksmen is pretty obvious. Twin Twister for going second against the Ariadne builds is probably a very good idea too, Hand Traps, Game Ciel, etc.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Worded that awkwardly, I mean switching out the Spell one from the main for the effect one in the side*.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

r ppl really gonna play stuff like rainbow kuriboh and the vylon tuner instead of a minimal performage engine to support brilliant? u can't even use rainbow kuriboh on kozmo ships n they can chain farm girl to it :/

Wouldnt be the first time a DG poster couldnt tell the difference between an obvious joke deck and a legit deck.

 

http://imgur.com/UJ9vLDX

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

does moulin count as a dweller out? I know you're not actually stopping the eff but its a dude u can kill em with under dweller. maybe chums was on the right track b4

by the same token if u really wanna get ur victor on under their dweller I'm p sure u can summon dragoons with masked chameleon n go to town


I don't think cards like raigeki, dark hole or moulin are outs to dweller. Consider the following case:

We are playing against pepe and we won game 1. They go first and make their standard plays, ending with a combination of infinity/dweller, dweller/rafflesia, imps/dweller and maybe an ignister in the mix. In all of the cases above, I can't see the atlantean deck winning. Pepe is so consistent that it will almost always make those xyz plays turn 1 effortlessly vs us and we simply can't effectively deal with those cards. There is also the fact that, given the speed of the format, sticking a dweller on board turn 1 and shutting the atlantean/mermail deck for a whole turn is enough for pepe to win. (If we draw hole/raigeki, somehow survive the next turn and have a hand that can combo while playing around infinity, we might make a comeback but I doubt we will be that lucky) But the idea is, pepe doesn't need to ride to victor with dweller, they just need to make sure we don't get to play a turn, which is pretty crucial since the whole game is going to be 3/4 turns.

Possible Solution:

Gorz, the Emissary of Darkness: Obviously, prevents us from getting OTK'ed. Complements well with maxx c, allure and seven stars (ordering from most relevant to least). Good vs kozmo and basically any rogue deck.

Paradox in g2&g3: Do we go first or second vs pepe?

Obviously, given the high OTK "affinity" of this deck, I think going second is more efficient. The problem is that pepe going first means dweller, which means we won't OTK for sure (unless there really is a possible hand that we can OTK under dweller). And if we go first, can we consistently make a board that can deal with pepe? Can we play around maxx c efficiently? etc.

I haven't tested the deck much more but having played a list so similar to Matthew's, I think mermails are a pretty good choice (could even be better than pepe but that is just me) if only we can solve the dweller problem (I read Matthew's post about dweller but I think this is not the same case with BA since they had a lot of traps to deal with/prevent dweller and the format wasn't as fast as this one. Also, the general idea that an OTK deck dedicated to go second but gets halted by a turn 1 dweller, a card that is pretty easy to make, still needs to be adressed unless I am really overexaggerating the dweller problem. I seriously want to be proven that dweller is in fact not a serious problem.)
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chalice is the answer. I don't think there's anything remotely similar in handling dweller/raff/infinity. Also, Matthew mentioned cutting dewloren which I have done as well but my question is specifically regarding whether or not cards like Nothung or Red Wyvern should be used. For the Moulinglacia combo I find myself wanting Red Wyvern going first to rip cards and have some sort of defense. Another extra deck card is obviously rafflesia and treacherous where we could then side a single copy of Deep Dark to pair with cyber dragons utility with brilliant fusion (sending core). Obviously nothung allows for otks thru upstart but it hasn't come up for me where it was THAT necessary. Can we agree on the staples in the extra? ID be interested to hear Matthew explain Bahamut/Trite's utility. IMO you need:
1 Seraphnite
1 Norden
1 Rafflesia
1 Dweller
1 Emeral
1 Castel
1 Bahamut
1 Trite
1 Gaios
1 Tatsunoko
1 Level 6 sync (Red Wyvern)
1 Level 7 sync (Gungnir)
1 Level 8 (Omega)
1 Trish
1 Leo (for Teus Dragoons Glacia)
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Then for those final 3 slots in Matt's build we can play 2 maxx, 1 treacherous.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chalice is the answer. I don't think there's anything remotely similar in handling dweller/raff/infinity. Also, Matthew mentioned cutting dewloren which I have done as well but my question is specifically regarding whether or not cards like Nothung or Red Wyvern should be used. For the Moulinglacia combo I find myself wanting Red Wyvern going first to rip cards and have some sort of defense. Another extra deck card is obviously rafflesia and treacherous where we could then side a single copy of Deep Dark to pair with cyber dragons utility with brilliant fusion (sending core). Obviously nothung allows for otks thru upstart but it hasn't come up for me where it was THAT necessary. Can we agree on the staples in the extra? ID be interested to hear Matthew explain Bahamut/Trite's utility. IMO you need:
1 Seraphnite
1 Norden
1 Rafflesia
1 Dweller
1 Emeral
1 Castel
1 Bahamut
1 Trite
1 Gaios
1 Tatsunoko
1 Level 6 sync (Red Wyvern)
1 Level 7 sync (Gungnir)
1 Level 8 (Omega)
1 Trish
1 Leo (for Teus Dragoons Glacia)

 

what makes gung better than meteroburst?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Valid question. Meteor helps otk while Gungnir attempts to break boards. I'm interested to see what others thoughts are. I just assume no one has damage juggler (borrowed from the no valk "they dont search it they aint got it principle)
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When not running any other Lights/hand traps yet, 1 Cyber Dragon 1 Cyber dragon core could also be mained. When drawn, they beat Kozmo and Infinity, but ideally you sent Core to grave with Brilliant, synchro serap with tatsuko into omega, then special cyber dragon from deck. This'll probably only be relevant if Kozmo keeps getting played and it depends on going 1st/2nd as well, cyber dragon itself can make for some trish or omega plays depending on your hand, where Core would be the card you hope not to draw but it still does something when you do draw it 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also, what are we using Gameciel against? Just pepe? We already established why the card isn't for Dweller, it works well vs Infinity and Rafflesia going second but that means we are bringing in 4-6 cards going second. What's the right number? And what is coming out? Gunde, Leed, and then what? We could main Gameciel as a one of?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, what are we using Gameciel against? Just pepe? We already established why the card isn't for Dweller, it works well vs Infinity and Rafflesia going second but that means we are bringing in 4-6 cards going second. What's the right number? And what is coming out? Gunde, Leed, and then what? We could main Gameciel as a one of?

 

Dweller, Infinity, Rafflesia, Dark Destoryer,  X Monarch, Raid Raptor thing, rank 12 quantum guy

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its removal that also happens to be a water monster... in a combo deck that wants lots of water monsters.
Mind you I usually only play it vs kozmo as I think chalice is far more important when combating pepe(dweller).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah honestly chalice is the answer for dweller as we can use it defensively or offensively but how many should we side ? 2 or 3?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would personally side 4-5 if I could.


This. 100%. Right now my side is:
1 Gameciel
1 Mermail Abysslinde
2 Cyber Dragon
1 Cyber Core
2 Twin Twister
3 Chalice
3 Anti-Spell
1 Deep Dark Trap Hole
1 Abyssphere
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Whoops. 1 Chimeratech. I'm maining the Gameciel
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
are the cydra cards really needed when Megalo alone can run over everything Kozmo throws on the board?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is there any reason not to main 3 anti spell right now other then the fact that it's not a combo piece? It may not be a combo piece in a sense, but it's still winning you the game on its own
-2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any reason not to main 3 anti spell right now other then the fact that it's not a combo piece? It may not be a combo piece in a sense, but it's still winning you the game on its own

 

Yeah, the reason is that this deck blinds 2nd.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.