NB96

WATER - Discussion

273 posts in this topic

You are going 1st vs an unknown. (You picked going 1st and they do run an extra deck)

Your hand is:
Teus, Controller, Prince, Dragoons, Trick clown

What would be the best play? (You are playing the brilliant fusion build)
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Teus send dragoons get diva, summon diva get prince, prince dump dragoons get glacia, sync diva prince tast, tast and trick clown for a 7 drop glacia

Edit: I would get infantry off the prince eff and obv summon back my trick clown in def

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couldnt you grab infantry and normal summon the prince for the extra 2 levels to bump the 7 drop up to trish

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couldnt you grab infantry and normal summon the prince for the extra 2 levels to bump the 7 drop up to trish

Yes but then you can't moulin, because infantry is the 6th water, and if you don't decide to make tats, you cant synchro with trick from hand.
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I think Call of the Atlanteans is something worth bringing up, but I really don't think the atlanteans are that great on the field by themselves, however during your opponents end phase if you wanted you could summon 2 infantry off of it to make Herald of Pure Light and add back Diva you used earlier. You could also make Cat Shark and use it's effect to target itself detaching infantry, acting as a way to disrupt your opponents plays during their turn. 

The claus on call of the atlanteans stopping you from doing this the turn you use it is a problem of itself though :( 

 

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Ok with the new list this leaves room for innovation, I would %100 main 3 chalice now fiends suck no need for so many hand traps too 

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So we were going for the otk version because we could not out grind pepe but with pepe downgraded do we still go for the otk build? Or do we use a more mermail engine. Also kozmo is the deck to beat now and think sphere and linde will be needed again
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Haven't posted in a really long time but I fucking love water so I figured I would pop back in.

 

With Kozmo going to be prominent maybe we should consider maining some Kaijus. Hell maybe we should even consider Interrupted Kaiju Slumber. Only problem is it would require you to run a shitty non-water kaiju. Still, the card inherently helps with OTKs, gives you a level 7 2800 beater, and can be banished next turn to search a water monster/another kaiju. It also outs majesty's fiend(although chalice does this job better since it can out both vanity's and majesty's).

 

Maybe it's too impractical because it doesn't really do much vs already established Kozmo boards.

 

One up side Kaiju Slumber has over regular Dark Hole is if the opponent has Majesty's Fiend + March you can still beat over the fiend with the Kaiju you summon. Also, Kaiju's on their own out Majesty's Fiend + March, something chalice can't do.

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Haven't posted in a really long time but I fucking love water so I figured I would pop back in.

 

With Kozmo going to be prominent maybe we should consider maining some Kaijus. Hell maybe we should even consider Interrupted Kaiju Slumber. Only problem is it would require you to run a shitty non-water kaiju. Still, the card inherently helps with OTKs, gives you a level 7 2800 beater, and can be banished next turn to search a water monster/another kaiju. It also outs majesty's fiend(although chalice does this job better since it can out both vanity's and majesty's).

 

Maybe it's too impractical because it doesn't really do much vs already established Kozmo boards.

 

One up side Kaiju Slumber has over regular Dark Hole is if the opponent has Majesty's Fiend + March you can still beat over the fiend with Kaiju you summon.

 

 

I'd play Water kaiju but theres no reason to play any amount of slumber before you max out on System Down because with slumber they still trigger the ship

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Haven't posted in a really long time but I fucking love water so I figured I would pop back in.

 

With Kozmo going to be prominent maybe we should consider maining some Kaijus. Hell maybe we should even consider Interrupted Kaiju Slumber. Only problem is it would require you to run a shitty non-water kaiju. Still, the card inherently helps with OTKs, gives you a level 7 2800 beater, and can be banished next turn to search a water monster/another kaiju. It also outs majesty's fiend(although chalice does this job better since it can out both vanity's and majesty's).

 

Maybe it's too impractical because it doesn't really do much vs already established Kozmo boards.

 

One up side Kaiju Slumber has over regular Dark Hole is if the opponent has Majesty's Fiend + March you can still beat over the fiend with Kaiju you summon.

 

 

I'd play Water kaiju but theres no reason to play any amount of slumber before you max out on System Down because with slumber they still trigger the ship

 

Yea, 2/3 gameciel + chalice is probably a better idea then running slumber even though there are some cute combos you can do with it.

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So we were going for the otk version because we could not out grind pepe but with pepe downgraded do we still go for the otk build? Or do we use a more mermail engine. Also kozmo is the deck to beat now and think sphere and linde will be needed again


I would still go for the otk version. The only cards that hindered otk were stuff like infinity or dweller anyways, and we will see them much less after the list. It is not like we can't otk kozmo through a ship and even if we can't, we can get them down to pretty low so that they can't really abuse kozmotown. Sphere and linde can be teched as one-ofs in the main though.

It is also not really a good idea to stall vs monarchs. If they go first and make their play with a return face-up, they can just get majesty which means you should just go for an otk although I am not sure how easy it is to otk through on board erebus and ehther in hand, not to mention prime in grave.
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So do you think cutting hand traps and replacing them with Chalice and Gameciel is the correct way to go. Because i'm not sure what else to cut in the deck, especially if we're main decking the sphere/linde package to have a stronger card to search with megalo against Kozmo. 

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It is too early and haven't tested much with the new list. I would wait for the meta to settle out a bit and adjust the deck after seeing how monarchs and kozmos adapt.

Assuming that the prevalent decks will be kozmo and monarch, name of the game is probably going to become: "beat majesty/vanity/destroyer" instead of "beat dweller" which is better for us since majesty and vanity don't really stop our turn if we get rid of them with raigeki/dark hole and destroyer/majesty loses to gameciel.

Overall, we got a ton of reliable outs to problematic cards (raigeki/dark hole/gameciel and chalice all seem viable whereas chalice was arguably the only truly viable out in the past) now that it is difficult to know which ones are the best and how many copies should be run.

Even book of eclipse is decent since it outs vanity/majesty backed up by march and turns your dead marksmans into free pops.
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There's no reason to wait for the meta to settle before determining tech cards when the majority of them just out all the same problems anyways. Gamciel answers all the cards you listed game one, which means the beginning of the format will be whoever has the better deck and understands the best card interactions to abuse, which IMO in this deck is ending games before other decks find their power cards like monkeyboard or skullcrobat joker. and unless they're pendelum summoning secondonkey or summoning feral imps they're probably relying on the Majester Paladin XYZ to add their combo pieces for next turn, or using ariadne (which is another issue altogether imo), so I really don't think waiting for the meta to settle is nearly as good as you say it is, when pepe as a deck will only get more consistent over time when people start to understand how to get to their best cards in their deck again. 

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In my opinion Water is gonna be the best deck since pepe isn't around. Monarchs are gonna see more play then kozmo and that's an easy match-up.

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I mean monarchs arnt an easy match up at all any fiend ruins your day they are also hard to kill

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chalice gameciel raigeki dark hole x2 for majesty alone

 

all of the above  with Undine and Prince (for vanity*

 

without fiends you shit on them with infantry and megalo

 

In all honesty, water out class monarchs in almost every way card for card. 

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Did you just say gameciel outs vanity

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misworded all of the above, of course gameciel does not out vanity.

 

even then the most common decks ive seen with monarchs dont play vanity because it does not have the stats 2400 / 1000, they usually side it instead. Game one is almost always a win if you both have a mediocre hand.

 

Monarchs win condition (Domain) doesn't affect monarchs in almost the slightest, they make weak boards without fiends and archlord krystia (if played)

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There's no reason to wait for the meta to settle before determining tech cards when the majority of them just out all the same problems anyways. Gamciel answers all the cards you listed game one, which means the beginning of the format will be whoever has the better deck and understands the best card interactions to abuse, which IMO in this deck is ending games before other decks find their power cards like monkeyboard or skullcrobat joker. and unless they're pendelum summoning secondonkey or summoning feral imps they're probably relying on the Majester Paladin XYZ to add their combo pieces for next turn, or using ariadne (which is another issue altogether imo), so I really don't think waiting for the meta to settle is nearly as good as you say it is, when pepe as a deck will only get more consistent over time when people start to understand how to get to their best cards in their deck again. 


By waiting for the meta to settle, I was referring to some actual concerns. Will monarchs value vanity over majesty or vice versa? (Minor issue since vanity isn't that difficult) How will super quantums affect the deck's cosistency/popularity? Are magicians or other pendulum decks relevant, do we still have a relevant turn 1 dweller spam deck? (Major concern imo and I am honestly clueless about this, can go either ways.)

I am not saying that we should wait for a long time, but I still think it is too early to jump on the conclusions not even knowing whether magician pendulums will compete or not and what type of boards should we be expecting of that deck on a consistent basis.
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I think just main decking Gamciel is enough considering Vanity's fiend is outted so easily just by undine/prince like you said. The problem comes when you can't kill them because that deck has a way to disrupt your play and you give them another turn after outting their floodgate imo. I don't see very many good choices in outting a fiend and killing them in the same turn, especially if it's majesties fiend when you're forced to raw-draw Gamciel. 
And honestly any time you're forced to send infantry to out a fiend and you don't have a follow up play, although maybe unlikely depending on your megalo/tues numbers, it can happen, and you're probably gonna lose if you can't trigger dragoons you searched. 

Post-Adjusted list would you guys still play brilliant fusion? I actually just want to end games ASAP now, but I can really see how it might suck depending on what you're staring down, but really if you're playing 3/3 on prince and undine you're likely to see one of them, and brilliant fusion is still a way to trigger prince like we discussed before. 

Also, could the hand trap variant be better? The lightning Vessel for monarchs is catching on, so veiler isnt AS good, but it's still great in most match-ups, and Kozmos still let you draw off maxx"c under any strawman play or e-tele.

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I think just main decking Gamciel is enough considering Vanity's fiend is outted so easily just by undine/prince like you said. The problem comes when you can't kill them because that deck has a way to disrupt your play and you give them another turn after outting their floodgate imo. I don't see very many good choices in outting a fiend and killing them in the same turn, especially if it's majesties fiend when you're forced to raw-draw Gamciel. 
And honestly any time you're forced to send infantry to out a fiend and you don't have a follow up play, although maybe unlikely depending on your megalo/tues numbers, it can happen, and you're probably gonna lose if you can't trigger dragoons you searched. 

Post-Adjusted list would you guys still play brilliant fusion? I actually just want to end games ASAP now, but I can really see how it might suck depending on what you're staring down, but really if you're playing 3/3 on prince and undine you're likely to see one of them, and brilliant fusion is still a way to trigger prince like we discussed before. 

Also, could the hand trap variant be better? The lightning Vessel for monarchs is catching on, so veiler isnt AS good, but it's still great in most match-ups, and Kozmos still let you draw off maxx"c under any strawman play or e-tele.

 

 

I have been testing a lot and I still think brilliant fusion is 100% the way to go.

 

This is the way I see it:

In the brilliant fusion variant when you brick you REALLY brick and you probably lose that game.

In a more mermail-focused variant when you brick you might still be able to do some regular mermail plays. The thing is, regular mermail plays just don't cut it anymore. You probably still lose.

At least the good hands in the brilliant fusion version are really good. The brilliant fusion version also isn't terrified to go 1st.

Hell, there are many half-brick hands in the brilliant fusion variant that can still turn into the OTK if your opponent doesn't have a good hand.

 

Also, I tested Kaiju Slumber some more and it honestly is just pretty ridiculous vs monarchs. With a line-up of 2 gameciel - 2 radian - 2 slumber it felt like I couldn't lose game 1 unless I hard bricked.

 

The annoying thing about monarchs is they have lots of tools to counteract the OTK, but Slumber deals with many of these tools.

 

It wrecks majesty's fiend even under march(you can just run it over).

It clears clogged boards that smart monarch players will make to counteract the OTK.

It gives you a 2800 level 7 beater(that is often going face since you can easily infantry the kaiju you gave your opponent).

It gives you a few more options since you can banish it next turn to search a kaiju as another out to majesty's and dominion if you can't OTK.

 

Overall I think kaijus are actually pretty decent standalone cards vs the meta and slumber is just an extension of their usefulness. Sure, slumber isn't that good vs Kozmo, but I think it still might deserve a main deck slot. Slumber + dweller can be a blow-out in the same way geki + dweller can be a blowout.

 

Still a lot of testing to do, but figured I'd give my 2 cents on my recent findings.

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I've been maining 3 Book of Eclipse, something Bringer of Death noted but didn't seem to be picked up on. One of my lists even mained 3 Chalice and 3 Eclipse, even though functionally because they're likely not making Dweller G1, Chalice ends up being functionally worse. Perhaps Book of Moon should be played as well, or before any copies of Chalice if it's theoretically better. The thing I like is that going first they're at least a pseudo-defense and going second Game 1 they're huge problem-solvers of almost any board, which Eclipse easily being the best going second rather it be not targeting against Kozmo and potentially forcing their little guys, setting Monarch's Majesty/Vanity even around March, or dealing with both Raflesia and Nightmare or any non-Infinity combination like that at the same time. They also tend to be comparatively better than Gameciel due to their function turn one whereas Gameciel can only serve a T1 function as a Water to discard which tends to be a superfluous function to begin with anyway, especially when it becomes the only purpose which is true of that situation. 

 

The best thing about making a deck than can go both first and hand loop or second and address boards is the progressions of tournaments and top cuts where people realize you're playing water and can be more likely to blind second, especially if they hear you're maindecking the aforementioned 3 Chalice and worried about the reliability of going first and Dwellering as a strat. You can also capitalize on these trends when noticed by switching to blinding first as well to completely switch and avoid even the people that want to go for that, or at least make going for that less likely. Essentially, the progression of tournaments in combination with the fact that even though blinding first is in the majority, it's not in the majority enough to want to base a strat off only going second, along with the aforementioned Dweller points, this deck remains very strong under these theories. It remains even stronger under the new list, letting you play more relaxed variants, one I'm particularly interested in deals with going all-in on the level 7 Mermails and Gunde and making Rank 4s, possibly dropping the Undine and Brilliant package as the average power in the format may no longer match the need for them to solve.

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I've been maining 3 Book of Eclipse, something Bringer of Death noted but didn't seem to be picked up on. One of my lists even mained 3 Chalice and 3 Eclipse, even though functionally because they're likely not making Dweller G1, Chalice ends up being functionally worse. Perhaps Book of Moon should be played as well, or before any copies of Chalice if it's theoretically better. The thing I like is that going first they're at least a pseudo-defense and going second Game 1 they're huge problem-solvers of almost any board, which Eclipse easily being the best going second rather it be not targeting against Kozmo and potentially forcing their little guys, setting Monarch's Majesty/Vanity even around March, or dealing with both Raflesia and Nightmare or any non-Infinity combination like that at the same time. They also tend to be comparatively better than Gameciel due to their function turn one whereas Gameciel can only serve a T1 function as a Water to discard which tends to be a superfluous function to begin with anyway, especially when it becomes the only purpose which is true of that situation. 

 

The best thing about making a deck than can go both first and hand loop or second and address boards is the progressions of tournaments and top cuts where people realize you're playing water and can be more likely to blind second, especially if they hear you're maindecking the aforementioned 3 Chalice and worried about the reliability of going first and Dwellering as a strat. You can also capitalize on these trends when noticed by switching to blinding first as well to completely switch and avoid even the people that want to go for that, or at least make going for that less likely. Essentially, the progression of tournaments in combination with the fact that even though blinding first is in the majority, it's not in the majority enough to want to base a strat off only going second, along with the aforementioned Dweller points, this deck remains very strong under these theories. It remains even stronger under the new list, letting you play more relaxed variants, one I'm particularly interested in deals with going all-in on the level 7 Mermails and Gunde and making Rank 4s, possibly dropping the Undine and Brilliant package as the average power in the format may no longer match the need for them to solve.

I feel like slumber is better then eclipse in many of the situations you mentioned, especially if you are aiming to OTK that turn. However, slumber doesn't have any utility going first so that is a definite downside.

 

My main problem with a heavy mermail line-up is if you want to be versatile going first/second the mermail package offers little in the form of helping you do hand loops, unlike the brilliant fusion version.

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