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Paraliel

Arena Discussion

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Class: Hunter

[1] On the Hunt
[1] Brave Archer
[1] Bluegill Warrior
[1] Boneguard Lieutenant
[1] Direwolf Alpha
[1] Duskboar
[1] Flame Juggler
[1] King's Elekk
[1] Mad Bomber
[1] Scavenging Hyena
[1] Ship's Cannon
[1] Stonesplinter Trogg
[2] Twisted Worgen
[1] Animal Companion
[1] Kill Command
[1] Unleash the Hounds
[2] Carrion Grub
[1] Silent Knight
[1] Armored Warhorse
[1] Faceless Shambler
[1] Hungry Dragon
[2] Infested Wolf
[1] Tomb Spider
[1] Fel Reaver
[1] Pit Fighter
[1] Force-Tank MAX
[1] North Sea Kraken

Thoughts? I think this deck is ok, I've had a lot of recent success with very low cost Hunter decks that just go for damage instead of board control with a couple of top end dudes in case things go south. Predictions on how many wins?

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maybe 4-5 wins 

lack of good hunter removal cards (deadly shot, explosive trap, multi shot) makes it rough

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I'd say around that 5ish range too depending on what kind of deck quality/opponents you run up against.

The one thing Hunter has going for it is that you'll likely curve out just due to the WoG offering rates. Still, curving out isn't quite enough to get through the heavier decks out there, especially with the increased amount of taunts nowadays. I think you have the right approach aiming to convert to face damage. Playing Midrange in LoE was just saddening, and I can't imagine it got better this expansion.

Shadybunny had a guide for Hunter in LoE: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D3-Hvyh2ioi4Sa4Epj_NP0UIJYbJ8prsIIsRbedjHak/pub

I'm sure he'll update it eventually when the meta settles.

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I am very curious to see what dgz thinks are the best classes in arena, in order.

 

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Heh, could cheat by checking the class rankings by average on the Arena Streamer Leaderboard, but what fun would that be?

Without a doubt, top 2 are Mage and Rogue. They didn't lose out on too much in WOG. Mage can still play to its strengths and grind you out, even with spells diluted. The slower pace of the meta allows you to get the most out of your hero power. You can build a large deck and afford to miss out a bit on your curve -- it's not as punishing when other decks aren't guaranteed to curve with this meta's offering rates. All the better when you can draft things like Flamecaller and Ethereal Conjurer and play the long game out with your Bog Creepers and the like.

The increased amount of taunts in WOG probably doesn't help the Rogue's cause, but really... how much does the Rogue miss out on? Blizzard gave Rogue Shadow Strike to keep ahead in a heavy meta. Still probably one of the best decks you can draft for an aggro-ish style. Cheap spells always made it pointless to try to out-tempo the Rogue in the early game, and how many streamers have you heard saying playing this class is like cheating? Tempo out, deny the board for your opponent, and convert to face before your hero power becomes "useless."

In the hands of an infinite player, I'd say Rogue comes out on top. You have more freedom of choice in your moves compared to other classes that I feel you can probably miss optimal plays. Mage is probably safer for non-infinite players, but you can get so much mileage out of even the "unlimited" pings compared to the Rogue. Tough call, but I'm gonna say Rogue in first and Mage a close second. I've had lots of even matches against Mages, but more blowouts from Rogues that just knew what they were doing. You could convince me otherwise though... this meta is an ideal one for Mage.

I'd also be interested in hearing what you guys think are the worst 2 classes, in which order, and why. Heh heh.

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warrior is without a doubt the  worst class in arena, every other class is alright

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Pretty sure Priest is much worse than Warrior right now.

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On 5/24/2016 at 1:51 AM, Morgenmuffel said:

Heh, could cheat by checking the class rankings by average on the Arena Streamer Leaderboard, but what fun would that be?

Without a doubt, top 2 are Mage and Rogue. They didn't lose out on too much in WOG. Mage can still play to its strengths and grind you out, even with spells diluted. The slower pace of the meta allows you to get the most out of your hero power. You can build a large deck and afford to miss out a bit on your curve -- it's not as punishing when other decks aren't guaranteed to curve with this meta's offering rates. All the better when you can draft things like Flamecaller and Ethereal Conjurer and play the long game out with your Bog Creepers and the like.

The increased amount of taunts in WOG probably doesn't help the Rogue's cause, but really... how much does the Rogue miss out on? Blizzard gave Rogue Shadow Strike to keep ahead in a heavy meta. Still probably one of the best decks you can draft for an aggro-ish style. Cheap spells always made it pointless to try to out-tempo the Rogue in the early game, and how many streamers have you heard saying playing this class is like cheating? Tempo out, deny the board for your opponent, and convert to face before your hero power becomes "useless."

In the hands of an infinite player, I'd say Rogue comes out on top. You have more freedom of choice in your moves compared to other classes that I feel you can probably miss optimal plays. Mage is probably safer for non-infinite players, but you can get so much mileage out of even the "unlimited" pings compared to the Rogue. Tough call, but I'm gonna say Rogue in first and Mage a close second. I've had lots of even matches against Mages, but more blowouts from Rogues that just knew what they were doing. You could convince me otherwise though... this meta is an ideal one for Mage.

I'd also be interested in hearing what you guys think are the worst 2 classes, in which order, and why. Heh heh.

I agree with you that it is rogue, then mage. I think at the end of the last format, mage had a slight edge, but atm I find rogue stronger. Huckster and shadowstrike are ridiculous

Those lists do not reflect your playstyle and some classes will be stronger in the hands of certain players. You could cheat by looking at lists, but if you play enough, you can see results for yourself. If you aren't tracking your results and know your data, then I would argue you don't know what the best classes are.

For example, I actually find druid to be terrible, I would easily rate it bottom 4, but most lists have it 4th-5th. I am not wrong, they are not wrong. For me druid sucks, for others, its mid tier.

My class rankings go

Rogue, Mage

Paladin, Shaman, Warlock

Druid, Warrior

Priest, Hunter

 

I suspect a reason my druid sucks is not being able to consistently make it out of the first 5 wins. Druid gets better the farther you go bc of its power late game. But that means surviving early game, which is tough with druid.

At the start of Wotog, I felt shaman stronger than paladin, but I have changed my mind the last few runs. Pally finds ways to wins, shaman struggles so much when its behind. They have a board of multiple shitters, I drop Flamewreathed, and they just ignore it and I cant race. People just assume you dont have board clears and have no punish, and they are generally right. Of course if you have a board clear, you insta win

 

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8 hours ago, slick said:

Those lists do not reflect your playstyle and some classes will be stronger in the hands of certain players. You could cheat by looking at lists, but if you play enough, you can see results for yourself. If you aren't tracking your results and know your data, then I would argue you don't know what the best classes are.

 

Indeed. For instance, Adwcta's Warrior win rate is at 8.10. I certainly wouldn't say Warrior is a top tier class, and my own tiny sample size wouldn't suggest a thing. Just bringing up the spreadsheet to give another kind of a gauge to see how the meta is unfolding.

I also agree the Druid dropped off quite a bit. Speaking of Adwcta, the Arena Coop guys made a rough tier list similar to yours. I think it was something like:

Mage, Rogue || Paladin, Shaman || Warlock, Warrior, Druid || Priest, Hunter

Might be a little "off", but you can arrange the classes to fit your own style and observations better.  

I think you can justify Druid's drop off from the "4th best" from a bit of analysis. Look back to pre-TGT, and you have a class that'll get you a good 7 wins at least with a solid curve/draft. Nothing remarkable about the class -- ramp being the only special feature. You have a ping and a bunch of overcosted removals, so no real "cheating" outside of a good ramp. Cut to TGT, and you have the ability to play aggro with the 25% increased offering rates: Roots, Darnassus, Saber, Combatant. Mulch was a luxury, but all the better of a tempo option when you had it. Heck, you could even play a solid Beast synergy deck with Druid of the Fang if you had the right deck. Then with LoE, aggro got harder to draft, but it wasn't like the Druid got the short end of the stick. Mounted Raptor was a decent curve card that also helped out for Beast synergy (and there were still ok'ish neutrals in Toad and Tomb Spider). Raven Idol gave you options to fill your curve or find initiative.

So, what does Druid have now? Well... with the bonus WOG offering rates in effect and the removal of C'thun cards in arena, you'll be seeing a hell of a lot of Mark of Y'shaarj and Feral Rage. Your rares comprise of Mire Keeper and Addled Grizzly. Mark is an ok'ish card, but how likely are you to get Beast synergy now? Grizzly is your one new (rare) beast, and won't be anywhere near as effective as Questing Adventurer. The only neutral common Beast is Duskboar if I'm not mistaken. Mire Keeper suffers the split stat problem. Otherwise, you're paying quite a bit to ramp late and leave a tiny body on board. And to compound the problem, your likelihood of drafting those precious few (inefficient) spells to help you stabilize on board are much lower these days, especially with Mark and Feral taking up common slots. Well, if it's any consolation, you're one of the two classes that can take advantage of Silithid Swarmer, haha. 

So yeah, the dropoff had been predicted by the Coop boys, but no one thought it'd be so severe. Maybe things can shape up in the next few months when people get used to playing around with Druid a bit more. I'll wall of text about Pally and Shaman later, but yeah, I agree with you on your conclusion there too (I was a bit skeptical before the expansion on just how much the Shaman would improve though).

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^nice post, nice to discuss thing with someone who actually knows how to arena

Main surprise so far for me has been mage underperforming, but, in fairness, i think a lot of it is variance and bad luck. Tried mage today and had a fair result. Things should correct with more runs I suspect. In the same light, my paladin seems to be over performing, again will prob correct over time.

IMO warlock is prob the most underrated class and druid overrated, but people ARE noticing this. With druid, it feels like an all or none class but getting out of those first 5 games can be a nightmare because of the early tempo loss. Losing the bonus on roots hurts so much, roots was such a great card and the new stuff like Feral Rage simply does not fill the hole.

I am liking warlock a lot, but I can't say its better than shaman. Shaman is such a steamroll deck, if you have tempo, other decks will just play from behind until you bleed them out but if you are behind, its so hard to catch up. Warlock is great tempo with a cool late game since the hero power is so strong but the 2 LP bleed is real, esp vs anything with a sudden burst like mage or a weapon class.

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this is cool, 8 minutes is when they talk tier lists

LMAO, my personal tier list is almost identical to Kripps, which I think is funny because we have such similar play styles, ie passive, control, value, grind late game

Ratsmah is a great player but plays very aggressive, its cool to watch him bc of that different playstyle, whereas ADWTCA/MERPS are in the middle, so it makes complete sense that their lists are different. Warlock is much better in the hands of an aggressive player for example

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Something about Kripp has always rubbed me the wrong way.

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On 23/05/2016 at 1:42 PM, slick said:

I am very curious to see what dgz thinks are the best classes in arena, in order.

 

Without a tier listing...

 

Mage
Rogue
Paladin
Warlock
Shaman
Druid
Hunter
Warrior
Priest

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Is Mage currently focused more on drafting spells atm as compared to the past?

It seems all my mage drafts are going poorly. I know I have picked poorly a few times and sometimes its just shit rares/epic but for the supposed best Arena deck it seems like shit compared to 1.5-2 years ago. Now I aint gunna say spells are shit, what I am talking about is picking borderline spells like Ice Block and Frost Nova in order to make your shit creatures like Flamewalker into and overpowered force. Of course you'll never know if you will get all the spellcreatures but at the same time by picking mediocre creatures over shitiocre spells like Frost Lance it decreases the potential ability of said creatures, making your deck infinitely shittier. :/

There is also the idea that mage is best when not given shit choices because removal/burn is good. I'm just not sure I would want to pick Mage over Paladin. :/

Probly am just salty and confused.

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Not any more than before? It's more like draft anything useful because your odds of getting removal/AoE are much lower.

If you're thinking of say constructed-level shenanigans (Mech synergy, Mana Wyrm/Flamewaker nonsense, multi-aoe, burn, etc), the odds of drafting such a deck are astronomically low now. It's much harder to play like an aggressive Mage; the last I've ever gotten a deck like that was probably during the transition weeks between TGT and LoE (when the bonus wasn't enabled).

Just do what you can to make a read of your draft as it's in progress. What kind of deck is it trending towards? What do I need at this point? Potential upside or curve? You will run into some terrible choices, yes, but the important thing is understanding what you need to salvage a draft and at least make a functioning deck. You may get decks that look underwhelming, but as long as you understand your win condition, you can eke out even a few more wins from your deck. 

I wouldn't focus too much on any particular card synergy unless a draft really unfolds in a certain direction. It's a bit hard to offer more advice without knowing how your draft picks went, but if you'd like to share, I'm sure everyone could chip in with suggestions. As far as anything else I can point back to, I think my other post kind of hinted at the more control/card advantage style you can aim for. If you're drafting enough "big" cards, anything that'll draw you more stuff and/or eat up multiple cards, you can play for the long game. It's just a matter of assessing how greedy you can be based on your opponent's card quality and pace of game. Scenarios like...

Can I afford to hold back a card and ping?

Should I hold my removal (for something bigger)?

Can I set up a better Flamecaller/Blizz/Strike/Seer/etc?

Do I just have good enough large stuff coming up that I should just be focusing on getting enough tempo on board so I don't get SMORC'D -- can I win by attrition?

Am I in a mirror match? How's my card quality compared to theirs? Should I be accelerating/pushing to end the game faster? How much reach do I have?

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Thanks for the advice!

Another Mage run done, gave up after loss 2. Only playable spells I could draft were 1 Torch and 1 Polymorph Sheep. :/ Had decent creatures but too high of a curve (started at 3 but lots of 5 and 6s) and with the lack of spells I couldn't deal with creatures favorably. :/ 0-3 with mage now... but I guess I'll keep trying.

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I'm sure you'll get there with time. Also, keep going in the 2 loss bracket. Sometimes things get easier from there. Or if it's been a tough string of losses, perhaps look over your gameplay logs if you use a decktracker. Even if your plays are sound, there's still something to remember/learn as to how your deck functions (or fails). And yeah, sometimes it's just hard losses against high quality stuff or fast smorcdowns. You might want to step away at that point and come back later. I can recall a run that was struggling to reach 3-2; I was questioning my choices/deck and just had enough for the night. Came back days later, surprised that the deck could go well over 5 wins. 

It's rough without spells, but most of my runs had little more than a pair of hard removals (Lance/Poly) and maybe a one of Torch/Bolt or an AoE. So it is important to try an aim for a working curve when possible, but you'll run into drafts where you'll be missing drops. Still, with high enough quality, you can get by with even minimal 2 drops. In turn, you'll need to look at ways to slow the game down or have sources of damage without the spells to do so. Some examples...

- Taunts

- Frost Elemental

- Bombers, Flamecallers, pings

- heck... chargers

- Corrupted Seer

 

On 3 drops: they're not as "important" as you may think. On the one hand, you'd like to have something to do on 3 mana, especially if you miss your 2 drop. Outside of turn 3 though, they're as awkward as it gets. You know that something like a Spider Tank is going to get eaten by a Yeti... but nowadays Yetis are getting pretty much eaten beyond turn 4. Plenty of sizable 5/5 or better bodies now. So we know their size is just eh, and the mana consideration outside of turn 3 just makes tougher (Ain't that happy with Tank + Ping/2-drop on 5. Or Double 3's on 6). So if you're not flooded with 2 drops and going fast... eh. You can still make do with more 3 drops than usual if you have the rest of your curve filled out, but I honestly wouldn't be that upset if a draft gave me fewer 3's. Just be happy to take the premium Crusaders/Harvests/Ogres/Prophets and be on your way.

As for your 5 and 6 situation, I have no idea how the rest of your draft went. With what I just said about the Yeti at first though, it should give you a bit of perspective too on the size of creatures now. Heck, Boulderfist Ogre is probably "medium" sized now. You'll still have to be concerned about larger things like Bog Creeper/Kraken/Eldritch Horror/Jormungar/etc. If you got smorc'd down or even outsized in the long run, I don't blame ya if that's just how the draft ended up. 

 

If you need inspiration or something to sponge, here are some sample Mage runs from the GrinningGoat channel (if you care to slog through them):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS3mFrDAoBE

https://www.twitch.tv/grinninggoat/v/72836890?t=01h42m47s

https://www.twitch.tv/grinninggoat/v/70969238?t=02h38m22s

https://www.twitch.tv/grinninggoat/v/71536236

Haven't watched my way through all of them, but the last 2 are probably different scenarios of what can go "wrong."

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Just wanted to mention for anyone playing arena that Heartharena has a new app: Heartharena Overwolf, that I highly recommend. It will give you an overlay during the draft with card ratings that pop up and then during the run, it serves as a deck tracker.
My only caveat is that it recommends drafting too much early/aggro and i definitely find I disagree with its draft picks a lot after card 20. If you wish to draft aggro, it is more likely to guarantee a 4 to 6 win run, but if you want to hit 12, you need to draft some heavier stuff.
TBH I use the app primarily for the deck tracker but it saves a lot of stats from your runs so you can look back on it later, which is really awesome

 

http://www.heartharena.com/overwolf

 

edit

Not sure if its due to a patch but this app won't work for me anymore, at times crashing HS altogether. Hopefully they will fix it, but I haven't been able to use overwatch for at least a week

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Video was made before the Brode told everyone about Purify being removed. That said, expect an enormous boost to Priest of the Feast offering rates (like non-C'thun cards in OG) once the full adventure is released.

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Arena is really interesting post MSG

I'm still not sure what the class tier list is but priest, warlock and paladin are incredibly strong and mage def seems worse (at least in consistency, its always possible to just get a lucky draft and steam roll with mage)

Of course, there are a lot more noobs right after any new expansion, so it makes things hard to gauge, but farm em while you can

 

I just found Heartharena's tier list with initial data

#1 Warlock
... ...
#2-4 Mage, Priest, Rogue
...
#5 Paladin
#6 Shaman
#7 Warrior
... ...
#8-9 Druid, Hunter
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Pretty much agree with that list based off of what I've seen from arena streams. Kabal classes on top, most of the Goons on the bottom, and Jade not being a thing. Aligns also with the expectations of how the common/rare offerings shape the classes. I'll spare ya'll the wall of text and instead recommend the weekly Lightforge Podcast. The coop boys do some decent Arena meta analysis, and this week, there's an overview of how to tackle the classes - https://youtu.be/GUUl2CLKOWI?t=9m38s

 

Warlock's been hilarious to play. Didn't even have a control deck for one of my runs -- I just kept tempoing out and finishing folks with the damage from the AoE's. It's been fun straddling the line between killing yourself and winning. There's been a draft where I could have taken 5 or 6 Abyssal's if I hadn't thought about offering bonus at all. Also, hard removal for Warlock? Yes please.


 

 

 

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NstGBHV.jpg

 

this is data from the Chinese server

pretty much all as expected except that I didn't think Druid was THAT bad. I would still pick druid over warrior because of consistency tbh. You can easily draft a 0 weapon warrior and flop hard or you can draft a solid 4 weapon warrior and ride easy 7+. I don't like to draft classes that have that much variability

 

 

My personal class tier list atm would be

  1. warlock
  2. paladin, priest, mage, rogue (to me all 4 are really close)
  3. shaman
  4. Hunter, Druid
  5. warrior
   
   
   
   
   
   
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Was in a shitty mood and made a 5 Flamestrike meme mage deck yesterday for shits and giggles.

Went 7-3. Made it to front page of reddit. lmao Worth

fs2.jpg

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Congrats to Jae for hitting #1 in NA

Good job bro!!!

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