Jump to content

Recommended Posts

+Satchmo    3226
On 7/27/2016 at 5:02 PM, Axle said:

Playing Pot of Desires(cupidity) is better than maxing Painful Decision. It improves your draws far better. 2 Desires is minimum, but 3 is worth it for sure. 

One thing to note about Summoner and how this deck works...Yes it boosts your odds of having proper scales but you also want to be playing enough non-MF power cards (especially pre-inov) or else you just brick. The deck is shit if it doesn't draw Kirin/Gofu/whatever, so it's best to make sure you have enough of those before you think about going 3 decision/3 Summoners Art. Therefore if you're going the Summoner's Route, 1 Scout/1 Monolith is pretty much mandatory to make your Summoners also pull a power card..otherwise just cut the Summoners all together. 

 

Can you explain how Painful Decision/Summoner's Art and Cupidity/other power cards are mutually exclusive, because I don't see how you wouldn't be able to fit everything pre-INOV

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Axle    1215

You can fit it. And people have. It's the Qliphort build. But the Qliphort build isn't the end all build and if you're not playing Qli then Summoner's Art isn't worth the deck space nor the scale consistency boost. 

I think the deck needs 3 groups of power cards to be able to get pretty consistent strong boards pre-INOV. 

The mandatory power cards because of how good they are is:
6 Majespecter

 3 Gofu

After that the engine mandatory cards are

12 Metalfoes

3 Eccentrick (Search Combination with your 1 Metalfoe scale, destroy it with Eccentrick to get any scale. Then there's everything else it is known for in other pend decks)..few people say 2 Eccentrick but I disagree, it's amazing in this deck.

4 Metalfoes S/ts (2 Counter 1 Combination 1 Fusion)

Thanks to Combination, Eccentrick is a better searcher for getting the second scale than Summoner's Art is. It can get low or high. It's also flexible beyond that for other purposes which is another reason why it's better than just playing 3 Arts and no Qliph.

Then 3 Pot of Desires

2-3 Painful Decisions (3 really can become dead with Desires and getting 2 in your opening hand sucks. But you can play it).

If we go on the low side of every optional we only get 7 open slots unless we go over 40. These slots will be the only difference between any competitive Metalfoes builds.

That's where you have room for your Qliphorts (and Summoner's Arts) comes in. Ariadne, Speedroids, Apex Avian, single staples (Vanity/Luster Pendulum), MaxxC/Ogre, Jowgen,  etc.


But wasting these slots on just 3 Summoner's Art is pretty crap, because the deck isn't good enough with just Gofu and Majespector for power plays(pre-INOV). It really needs a 3rd engine of sorts for that consistency boost. You don't have trouble getting scales, you have trouble getting the non-scales. 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Satchmo    3226

On the contrary, every metalfoe related play you make needs 2 metalfoe cards. It's not about just scales, it's the fact that you can't even fusion summon with the second metalfoe, and that's the point in which this deck differs from Magician. Magician is just outright the better deck on the turn you don't fusion summon, ignoring Desires. Gofu, a card you say should be played at 3 but itself needs 2 metalfoes to be powerful but you want to drop that consistency rate for more off-theme cards that just aren't good unless you have 2 scales.

I'm not sure how you can compare 1 card in summoners art to a 2 card combo in Eccentrick/Combination (a 4 card combo if you're searching combination), especially when that 2 card combo's only benefits are "You can search a low scale as well" assuming we're playing Eccentrick regardless. Keep in mind Summoner's Art can search low scales as well.

If you want non-metalfoes to play a more powerful deck, I definitely don't think cutting down on scale access is the way to achieve this, considering all those non-metalfoes need 2 scales to make a difference unless they summon themselves and are tuners.

-------------------------------

I don't know the calculations for how likely it is that Desires makes Painful Decision dead, but It's almost certainly not high enough that you can't resolve 2 Painful Decision, and if you make it to the point in which you are drawing dead Decisions, you'd be very deep into the duel, assuming you haven't banished a Decision by then (this is more likely to happen than having your second Decision dead after 1 Desires.) Additionally, if you're really worried about Decision being dead that often, I'd argue you should fear banishing the 1-of fusion/Combination, considering you won't always be able to search before activating Desires and you definitely will not be able to search both consistently before Desires if you only have 12 Metalfoe 2 Decision (58% chance to draw 2 before desires).

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wduartes    77
53 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Keep in mind Summoner's Art can search low scales as well.

im missing something or you are talking about playing Foucault's Cannon/Dragon horn?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Axle    1215

Yeah. Foucault for 2 scale.

 

 

@SatchmoI deleted my last response because I want to take my time for a better response with more factual information rather than just what it feels like.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
buckwheatloaf    190

 

3 hours ago, Satchmo said:

Can you explain how Painful Decision/Summoner's Art and Cupidity/other power cards are mutually exclusive, because I don't see how you wouldn't be able to fit everything pre-INOV

 

summoner's arts really adds negligible consistency if ur already maxing on metalfoes and eccentricks and playing some painfuls. ocg decks that use arts and qlis went up to 50 cards to make the added consistency worth something, and added more good monsters to keep a good ratio of those to all the metalfoes and scale searchers. at 40ish cards summoners arts and qlis is mostly just 4 copies of cyber infinity and a monolith that u have to play. but unlike jowgens multiples are totally fine and both can serve a purpose.  i think its similar to speedroids since thats 3 terrortops and a taketomborg  (which can be any scale with grampulse) or be a negater (totem bird). terrotops aren't good in multiples, but they are great going 2nd with breaksword.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M.C.B.    173

I don't think you NEED to play Qli if you max out on Art. Getting to more Volfram is good enough. You can never have enough Metalfoes in play for Fusion. (am not saying you shouldn't play Qli though, Infinity access is great and they are LV5 for Gofu-Tzolkin)

I don't think you even need to play Combination, this far I find Counter better. Or at least easier to get both effects from in  decent amount of time. Saves you from dyint while at the same time brings a new scale into the game. A scale you can (in case of emergency) put to extra deck and take to hand with the very same Counter.

And last, I see how having +1 is nice, but is it really a good idea to play Desires? The way I see it this deck has many +1 cards so you shouldn't be falling behind in card advantage. Going second you have one more anyway. Is it really worth banishing key cards by accident? If you search out Fusion, you could banish Counter (combination) by accident, locking yourself for a while. You coud banish Kirins, monoith etc resulting in dead draws later on. 

It isn't that easy to OTK with this deck over established boards and it isn't that easy to leave a lockdown field after killing their setup, so every next draw phase counts. I think we should go back to 2 years ago, when we were still buiding the decks for the long haul and not glass cannons like today. I would hate this to turn out to be just another Kozmo. 

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Satchmo    3226
8 hours ago, M.C.B. said:

And last, I see how having +1 is nice, but is it really a good idea to play Desires? The way I see it this deck has many +1 cards so you shouldn't be falling behind in card advantage. Going second you have one more anyway. Is it really worth banishing key cards by accident? If you search out Fusion, you could banish Counter (combination) by accident, locking yourself for a while. You coud banish Kirins, monoith etc resulting in dead draws later on.

This deck will be ending the game in a few turns, I actually do think you should play 3 Cupidity since you can just play multiple copies of everything. It's ok to banish a Kirin or a Fusion if you still have access to more in deck. Banishing a Qli sucks, but you can play very easily without them.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
-yzan424-    4

So I've practically never posted in Dgz (except a couple times in 2008 or somethign when I was like 12 years old) but thought I'd chime in because I am in Tokyo for the summer and have been topping couple cash tournies here with this deck (which are basically the equivalent of mini regionals here).

The ideal opening for this deck is getting a low and high scale as well as at least one power monster (as discussed above).

The former is actually not very hard to accomplish at all, since the scales in this deck are pretty evenly distributed on both sides and you run a fuckton of em (12 metalfoes, 3 eccentrick, 1 luster, 6 majespecter, 2 painful decision = 9-11 low scales 13-15 high scales). I'd say about 10% of my openings didnt have a high and low scale (including after playing desires, which i play 3 of) but probably a majority of those hands werent bad either because they might have included cyber stein, emptiness, etc. Just drawing a single metalfoes is honestly enough as long as you dont die because you can just pop something to get combination, which you can pop next turn to get your engine going, so it still puts the opponent on a one turn clock to get rid of your single metalfoes (though you have a super high chance of just drawing another one next turn). For this reason, i've elected not to play qli's and neither have the majority of metalfoes players here. 

I also don't know why summoner's art is even being discussed, that card adds absolute no value to this deck. It only lets you search the level 8, so you have to run some shitty high level normal pendulum to give it an actual toolbox use, but the problem with that is a) you're playing an additional shit card like cannon or scout and b) you can very easily mill that shitty card with desires, which reduces art's utility by a half. Painful decision is so much better because it can almost always search either a high or low scale that is a metalfoes monster, and has the extra benefit of giving you food for combination's less known effect. 

For power monsters, i use 3 stein (banned in US still i think?), 2 jowgen, 6 majespecters, 1 luster, and 4 speedroids, each which i can discuss:

-Stein is just stupid, especially game 1 you just win if you resovle it at any point cuz nobody maindecks outs to last warrior from another planet. even if you draw it midgame, you can still use it if you have enough life/have no backrow to worry about (noone plays veiler here) and if not, you just pend summon it and then pop it for a metalfoes card. 

-Jowgen is probably the nuttiest card of OCG format. It's just so good to have going first or second. if you open it, most decks actually cant reliably out it even if you have nothign to protect it because most decks dont have normal summonable monsters over 1100 attack (except the mirror, but then they have to normal summon a metalfoes which is not ideal). since i run terrortop, ive summoned angineer with jowgen on multiple occasions and they just scoop unless they main swords of concealing light. going second, it shits on especially DDD because they rely on boss monsters to have board presence, which jowgen can just wipe out unless they have a crystal wing, and spirit dragon can no longer tag out. only thing it cant reliably destroy is BA cuz beatrice, but you already wreck that deck by floating better and having kirins. 

-luster and majespecter are obvious, basically autowins BA for you.

-speedroids provide utility in almost any situation with just one card whether you go first or second. going first you usually just stick a totem bird, which is insane against blue eyes because they rely on that discard spell to get alternative and vanilla (there win conditions) and you get so much ahead by just negating it. going second, it's basically your extra eccentricks that work under anti spell fragrance and dont take up a normal summon thanks to granpulse/break sword. breaksword is especially neat cuz you can pop their card and your combination to further your plays. but yeah being able to out spirit, beatrice, fragrance, solemn strike, etc with just a single card is insane, and you can just combo off after that. really good post side as well obviously.

i dont play gofu because i like jowgen better, but i think it's probably the best card to play over stein.

another misconception is how unnecessary fusion is. it's definitely a good way to utilize any extra steelerens you might have, and the 2x piercer is definitely strong, but by no means is a win condition for the deck. the first tourney where i got 4th place, i played fusion maybe twice in my 10 matches of the day. all your power monsters are usually better than the double piercer, and having access to two metalfoes monsters after comboing off is surprisingly rare unless you just drew like 3-4 of em. even then, it may not even be worth it because counter is the nuts and you probably want to set both copies before even thinking about searching fusion. most of the games i lost due to desires was not when desires milled fusion but when it milled counters (this actually happened a good amount so always search for counter if possible in opening hand before playing desires).

 

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M.C.B.    173

You spent a whole lot of words to say that 6 copies of Volfram is somehow worse than 3 (I don't agree about Foucalt/Scout either, I find both of them REALLY good, especially Foucalt, I would much rather pendulum Metalfoes for Fusion than use them as scales). And to say that Jowgen is good. Which no one disputed, because we are taking this to TCG, where meta is still unclear untill banlist.

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Axle    1215

He's just putting his input from his OCG format. Nothing wrong with it. No need to get aggressive there. 

And there's  a downside to running too many search cards in this case. The math was done on drawing 2 metalfoes with 3 Summoner's Art, but it wasn't done on drawing 4 Metalfoes (and foucault/monolith if you run both lol), which is where you get your bad hands. If the math is done, remember to do it while counting pot of desires. It won't be a high number, less than 10%. But that number will be the amount of times you just brick and lose the game. Anything over 3 Metalfoes in your hand is pretty meh.

TCG players do think they know better and "ocg is just casual" is a common misconception..  this is a tier 1 deck that thousands of people already play (even before INOV it was tier 1.5..now it's basically the best deck in japan), and the people who play it in OCG regions do have experience to add that is greater than yours from just theory-ohing and not actually playing the deck. Clearly Stein creates a very different experience, but the rest is fine. You should at least test what has been established and decide for yourself instead of just instantly tossing it under the rug.

 

I think the biggest difference is that OCG players have a lot of experience playing Pot of Desires that we don't. Hundreds of games per person. In some situation this card does shake up deck building we've known for years, and  certain concepts in deck building become weaker thanks to it. But the card is powerful enough that you drop the concept of searchable 1-ofs(For example, the draco face-off engine which needs to be tested again with desires) that can become dead/mediocre cards after a desires resolution in favour of playing Desires. In this case, Summoner's Art is in that same situation for OCG players and convinces them to omit it. 

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
buckwheatloaf    190

good poast

to have the insight of an actual ocg player is so neat. like we dont test with ocg decks here so we can only make guesses to why they side or main this or that. we cant really see it for ourselves since we'd have to really know their format and there's only so much u can grasp from pouring over decklists. like i saw mirror of the ice barrier dozens of times before it finally clicked for me what it was used for there. i asked tcg ppl, no one ould tell me. but if i knew a ocg player they coulda explained it right away cuz they actually play in that format.

 

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M.C.B.    173

I honestly don't see why you would respond that way.

2 hours ago, Axle said:

TCG players do think they know better and "ocg is just casual" is a common misconception..  this is a tier 1 deck that thousands of people already play (even before INOV it was tier 1.5..now it's basically the best deck in japan), and the people who play it in OCG regions do have experience to add that is greater than yours from just theory-ohing and not actually playing the deck. Clearly Stein creates a very different experience, but the rest is fine. You should at least test what has been established and decide for yourself instead of just instantly tossing it under the rug.

 

I think the biggest difference is that OCG players have a lot of experience playing Pot of Desires that we don't. Hundreds of games per person. In some situation this card does shake up deck building we've known for years, and  certain concepts in deck building become weaker thanks to it. But the card is powerful enough that you drop the concept of searchable 1-ofs(For example, the draco face-off engine which needs to be tested again with desires) that can become dead/mediocre cards after a desires resolution in favour of playing Desires. In this case, Summoner's Art is in that same situation for OCG players and convinces them to omit it. 

No one said anything about OCG players and how they play ffs. Their experience you mention is shown in the decklists that top. Not one event, not one player, but parallels that can be drawn from a while now and lots and lots of decklists. TCG went and saw what was shown. I really don't think expanding theory further on OCG lists is needed because;

Their decks are made to fight Blue Eyes, ABC and Mirror. OCG players and OCG lists gave what they had on the deck. Now TCG has to take it a step further and come up with a strategy that disregards ABC and stands it's ground vs BA and Kozmo, maybe Odd eyes dcks too. 

I will say this though(taking a page from US or Hobans articles). TCG has a way of doing things on paper first. So telling me to go test something is exactly opposite of what should have been done. Just like how you said they tested Desires more. There is nothing to test. How good a card as playin as Pot of esires is, can be solved theoretically. 

And don't assume I didn't playtest. I have been testing for about 2 weeks now on Devpro unrated. While I have to play all kinds of crappy mob there I did play some serious games vs Blue eyes, Odd eyes, Kozmo and BA. Learned a thing or two. Some of the things were discussed here earlier.

 

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Axle    1215
On 02/06/2016 at 11:20 AM, Satchmo said:

I don't really think just following card for card what OCG does is a good idea, especially not with there major circuits being small locals. But just searching another metalfoe from Abductor to fuse with is pretty strong. I cut Sky Iris'nem for cupidity and a few other cards. I also don't think that going into a field where pendulum decks based around fusion/synchro summon makes Kirin at all that strong, like if I can just fuse every turn or run over it, then Kirin's value isn't that high. Summoners Art pushes the ammount of time you hit the Gofu combo or just fusing in general a lot higher and completing the scale with Kirin doesn't sound appealing at all by comparison. I also ended up adding the Qli stuff, but it's only really filler, since there wasn't anything else good that came to mind.

This post sure did say OCG is casual. Almost everything in this post was terrible too,  like calling Kirin weaker than fusing, but it was months ago and I'm hoping the poster doesn't have the same opinion now. 

 

Anyways..in response to you saying that their lists don't matter because we have different match-ups...Um..no? Lol

If the lists are what you are talking about, then 99% of lists don't play Summoner's Art (sometimes 1), and they sure as hell don't play it without Qliphort. 

http://ygodr.blog.jp/?p=6

Everything on page  6 and after are pre-inov builds 

The individual choices we are talking about are consistency, not match-ups. Whether we play 3 Summoner's Art or not does not affect the ABC match-up in the slightest opposed to any other deck. At the end of the day we always want a full scale and power cards. The perfect between the two should be found and there is such thing as leaning too much towards searching scales. You should at least try playing without Summoner's Art and more power cards, or actually do more in depth math behind obtaining scales other than "You're playing essentially 18 Metalfoes, this is how many times you draw 2 or more".

To the pot thing: I'm not talking about whether you should play Desires. That's obviously a 2-3 of. What I'm talking about is how pot of desires influences the rest of your deck building. Something that no one here has done any calculations on and all probability posted has omitted the card in it. This card does influence how often you see your scales but wasn't mentioned in Satchmo's post.

Look, I'm not saying the OCG builds even matter. It's better people don't look at them so we can get fresh ideas. But what I'm irritated by is you getting pissed at that guy for posting real discussion on the topic that actually hasn't been talked about or is still going on (Value of Speedroids, or Summoner's Art + Desires, how overrated fusing is). It really makes you look awful. 

 

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
M.C.B.    173

The way I saw that post was a bunch of text saying things that are either incorrect (Art thing) or apply to OCG only (Jowgen). Everything else was common knowledge.

 

To further expand why I think Art is way better than you two claim.

Art is an unlimited card with 0 restrictions. The fact that it tutors a specific card you know you can use makes it better than most other cards, including Desires, despite the obvious 1 card total difference. In TCG (my perception of it) we (at least used to) always go consistency over power as long as there is enough power left to be able to win games. A lot of time was spent debating this and the proof is in the putting. Hoban topped a shitload of events with various decks.

Obviously we are not all Hoban and the only reason I mention him so much is because he could put the theory behind it to paper best. He wrote countless articles explaining the theory behind it. All that was a tiny bit forgotten in the last year or so because Konami released a bunch of decks at most unfortunate times (banlists) so we were kind of forced to play strong inconsistent cards, just so we stay in the game (Kozmo Demise is like the perfect example of a fair deck falling behind because of lackluster design compensating with a bunch of traps and a really strong, yet limiting, draw card. I hope all that changes now and we will be able to build a deck for 11 rounds of YCS and not you tube videos of someone getting it on and wrecking another noob on devpro. 

I may end up being wrong about Art (OCG does in fact NOT use it as much). But in theory, Art is an extension of the decks core which only increases the percentage of hands of 2+ Metalfoes. You need 2+. Two or more. You can't decide to open exactly 2. There will always be variation. The percentage to open 2+ is the highest when you paly the highest number of tutors.

 

I will let this particular subject be. If you guys come up with a decklist that wins without Art and I don't feel like I am missing scales all the time, I will netdeck you. I will be glad this conversation made you go in depth to further prove or discard opinions. Untill then, I will continue using Cannon (ATM better than Qli).

 

I would like to ask OCG players now, why didn't anyone use Gadgets in the OCG with Metalphosis? 

2x Gold, 2x Silver and 1x red+green+yellow

Gold and Silver trigger after Metalphoes card, summons Yellow, get Green. Pendulum summon Green (+other stuff), go for Gigant X (or Rafflesia, Giant Hand, Dweller etc.). Gigant X searches Ally of Justice Quarantine (if you still have the normal summon) or Aly of justice Cycle reader vs BE. You can make easy double rank 4 plays too, depending on the hand.

I have been testing this for a few games earlier (without Gofu to fit everything in) and it was amazing.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
-yzan424-    4
4 hours ago, M.C.B. said:

The way I saw that post was a bunch of text saying things that are either incorrect (Art thing) or apply to OCG only (Jowgen). Everything else was common knowledge.

 

To further expand why I think Art is way better than you two claim.

Art is an unlimited card with 0 restrictions. The fact that it tutors a specific card you know you can use makes it better than most other cards, including Desires, despite the obvious 1 card total difference. In TCG (my perception of it) we (at least used to) always go consistency over power as long as there is enough power left to be able to win games. A lot of time was spent debating this and the proof is in the putting. Hoban topped a shitload of events with various decks.

Obviously we are not all Hoban and the only reason I mention him so much is because he could put the theory behind it to paper best. He wrote countless articles explaining the theory behind it. All that was a tiny bit forgotten in the last year or so because Konami released a bunch of decks at most unfortunate times (banlists) so we were kind of forced to play strong inconsistent cards, just so we stay in the game (Kozmo Demise is like the perfect example of a fair deck falling behind because of lackluster design compensating with a bunch of traps and a really strong, yet limiting, draw card. I hope all that changes now and we will be able to build a deck for 11 rounds of YCS and not you tube videos of someone getting it on and wrecking another noob on devpro. 

I may end up being wrong about Art (OCG does in fact NOT use it as much). But in theory, Art is an extension of the decks core which only increases the percentage of hands of 2+ Metalfoes. You need 2+. Two or more. You can't decide to open exactly 2. There will always be variation. The percentage to open 2+ is the highest when you paly the highest number of tutors.

 

I will let this particular subject be. If you guys come up with a decklist that wins without Art and I don't feel like I am missing scales all the time, I will netdeck you. I will be glad this conversation made you go in depth to further prove or discard opinions. Untill then, I will continue using Cannon (ATM better than Qli).

 

I would like to ask OCG players now, why didn't anyone use Gadgets in the OCG with Metalphosis? 

2x Gold, 2x Silver and 1x red+green+yellow

Gold and Silver trigger after Metalphoes card, summons Yellow, get Green. Pendulum summon Green (+other stuff), go for Gigant X (or Rafflesia, Giant Hand, Dweller etc.). Gigant X searches Ally of Justice Quarantine (if you still have the normal summon) or Aly of justice Cycle reader vs BE. You can make easy double rank 4 plays too, depending on the hand.

I have been testing this for a few games earlier (without Gofu to fit everything in) and it was amazing.

 

 

This isn't a pride thing because all I'm trying to do is give my input as an above average player who has played a ton in both TCG and OCG and give back to Dgz in some form, but yeah I agree with Axle in that I'm confused why you're so quick to say that what I say is simply "incorrect" when I have had the chance to play metalfoes a bunch in actual tournament level play with success while you're just theory-ohing.

I'm sure you just skimmed over my Art explanation because you were convinced I am so wrong. I never said tutoring Metalfoes is bad, I said Art isn't the card to do it. Painful decision is infinitely better because it can search 1 of 12 metalfoes cards extremely reliably, while art can only search 3 + shitty alternative vanilla pend that could get banished by Desires before it sees light of day. Your logic of "I like foulcalt because i much rather fuse with metalfoes than put them in pend zone" is also flawed because getting to fusion requires you to get metalfoes in pend zone (at the cost of not getting counter instead, which is infinitely a better card) and that foulcalt can just be replaced by a metalfoes monster (a 3rd painful decision even) and the result would be much better. but again id say biggest downside is high potential to mill off the foulcalt with Desires. 

The gadgets just aren't worth it because there are better power cards like I listed. even with the engine you describe, getting to two level 4's in hand is extremely hard to get any real value without fusing like you mention (plus you're fusing just to get the vanilla 2500 fusion, which is garbage without gofu). But again, fusing is just so unimportant in this deck that having cards that only get utility from fusing is so so bad. Fishbowling won't help you figure this out, playing against actual decks will only make you realize that counter is the way to go 80% of the time, combination 15% (when you get all your counters first, have an eccentrick or break sword play), and the other 5% fusion. most of the times ive ever played fusion were either pretty late game or when i hard drew it. 

8 hours ago, Axle said:

I think the biggest difference is that OCG players have a lot of experience playing Pot of Desires that we don't. Hundreds of games per person. In some situation this card does shake up deck building we've known for years, and  certain concepts in deck building become weaker thanks to it. But the card is powerful enough that you drop the concept of searchable 1-ofs(For example, the draco face-off engine which needs to be tested again with desires) that can become dead/mediocre cards after a desires resolution in favour of playing Desires. In this case, Summoner's Art is in that same situation for OCG players and convinces them to omit it. 

This. Pot of desires changes the game dynamic so much it's not even funny. I'd say a solid quarter of the games i've lost were due to desires milling off some card I needed to search (back when i played DDD, i straight up milled all 3 of the searching contract spell and lost despite opening amazing). Most of the times it's cuz i milled counters, but other times it's because milling metalfoes spell/trap made me lose the opportunity to use the pend effects. i've contemplated playing 3 counter before, which i might test out this weekend. in that regard, fusion is awesome because it always guarantees at least 2 metalfoes effects working per turn no matter how late in the game it is, unless of course you mill it with desires. decking out is almost never a concern.

That said, i'd say Desires is a three-of in this deck because you dont really care what you mill if you use it after searching your counters and the +1 is a big deal. Deck thinning before playing this card means you have a pretty good chance of hitting your power monsters which is again instrumental for this deck. 

The 4th list is mine where I topped basically a massive locals (62 people, the other one with 128 people i got 3rd didnt release lists but was basically identical -2 effect metalfoes +2 wolflame cuz it was pre-INOV): http://ygodr.blog.jp/archives/1059480044.html

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Satchmo    3226
11 hours ago, Axle said:

And there's  a downside to running too many search cards in this case. The math was done on drawing 2 metalfoes with 3 Summoner's Art, but it wasn't done on drawing 4 Metalfoes (and foucault/monolith if you run both lol), which is where you get your bad hands. If the math is done, remember to do it while counting pot of desires. It won't be a high number, less than 10%. But that number will be the amount of times you just brick and lose the game. Anything over 3 Metalfoes in your hand is pretty meh.

6% to draw 4/5 Metalfoes in a 5 card hand. About 2 out of 33 games.

 

None of you understand the implications of this deck, you keep talking about "Metalfoes are just an engine to summon (x power monster)", and if that is the case, you need to understand that this deck is fucking garbage compared to Magician Pendulum, or hell, just 40 good pendulum + Sky Iris. The ONLY reason to play these cards are the fusions that go along in conjunction with those cards. No amount of searching chump blocking traps or combination delayed search traps is gonna make this deck better than just playing an outright better deck. The fusions don't do this either, but one is require for Tzolken- keep in mind you're all playing gofu unless you're the guy in Tokyo, why the fuck would you want to decrease the amount of times you can resolve Tzolken, a play that needs 2 metalfoe? And the other is useful for small utillities, but that itself isn't enough either. What the fusions do, however, is give you a niche over these obviously better decks, give your Metalfoes actual use and increased Damage potential.

The OCG guy's input is useful, but his meta and landscape is very, very different from us. I don't agree with everything he said either, and I'm recovering from alcohol poisoning so I'm not going to bother right this second, other than this point:

Literally anything you want to argue "loses value because you milled it with desires" isn't a very good argument, because that applies to literally everything in your deck. If you want to assume the 34% chance you opened duality and milled all the cards to make summoners art or painful decision good/better/etc happened every time, I mean that's fine but that's not what going to happen. Ignoring the chance you banished the an excess Decision or Summoners art (which is just as likely if not more likely than specific targets).

8 hours ago, Axle said:

This post sure did say OCG is casual. Almost everything in this post was terrible too,  like calling Kirin weaker than fusing, but it was months ago and I'm hoping the poster doesn't have the same opinion now. 

Something that no one here has done any calculations on and all probability posted has omitted the card in it. This card does influence how often you see your scales but wasn't mentioned in Satchmo's post.

That post didn't say OCG was casual you fucking mongoloid, read again. Our friend in Tokyo can confirm or deny this, but as far as I understand, doing better at your locals circuit is more important than a 11 round event. You have to perform consistently well to get an invite to the Japanese WCQ, and there are very few if any regionals to earn your invite. This is where their deck building can differ from ours- they are focused on going undefeated in 4-5 rounds while we need to focus on only losing twice or fewer in 9-11 rounds. So their drops in consistency affect them far less than it affects us because they have to play fewer games to qualify for nationals. @yzan424 if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and explain the Japanese tournament structure to us, but this is how it's been explained to me before by members of the org.

EDIT: Finding out that this information is no longer correct, they switched from this system to a regional system similiar to the US. This just happened this WCQ season from what I'm being told, so I'm not really surprised Im wrong considering I'm using 2 year old info. That still doesn't excuse you twisting my words to suit your agenda like that.

I also never said anywhere Kirin was weaker than fusing, my point at the time was this deck can Clear/Bait Kirin very easily, although I no longer think that Kirin should be passed up on.

I didn't feel like having to calc and aggregate shit by hand because I know it's not that high of an increase. Forgive for not spoonfeeding you for something that I have a compilation of information on in the article subforum that literally teaches you how to calculate damn near everything yourself.

If you want an estimate, Pantheism digging for 1/12 tribute summons (3 red layer 9 monarchs) in 37 cards was like 2.5%. Pantheism was estimated to be live 33% of the time. So, if we apply that to Desires in 39 cards, I would estimate:

3% increase for drawing 1/12, fluctuating based on how many you drew
4% for drawing 1/15 including 3 Decision
<2% for drawing 1/6 or anything less than 6 copies.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Axle    1215

You don't seem to understand the deck either. It's a post banlist deck, yes it's barely weaker than the current Pendulum decks that probably aren't going to survive the list (and if they do, yes this deck will be shelved until INOV).

If any of the current format decks dodge some good hits, Blue Eyes will be a shit deck too. It's a given however (and why anyone is testing any new decks) that in less than a month we're going to have basically nothing survive but Kozmo with consistency hits (still decently new + tcg exclusive deck might mean lasting longer) and maybe one more deck surviving. That's because Konami has to push all their new product that is weaker than the current format. 

I'm not going to make my deck weaker for fusing because there (currently) exists a deck that does pendulum better. You're just making it shittier for the sake of it. The fusions pre-inov are fucking garbage and you only really grab the fusion for Gofu or if you're later in the game. I don't understand playing Summoner's Art without Qli, I really don't. Which is what this whole thing is about. It just takes up slots from cards that can actually progress the game state to winning. A deck has only 40 cards, and you're just turning the deck into draw majespecter/gofu or bust. Not to mention if you don't draw them together you create a board that all good decks can beat (1 crystal win or just kirin), which is why you play a 3rd engine of cards (Qliphort if SA, otherwise any 7 good cards), so you can have another group of cards to draw in the mix of the original 9 power cards. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
buckwheatloaf    190
Quote

6% to draw 4/5 Metalfoes in a 5 card hand. About 2 out of 33 games.

if ur saying to use 12 metalfoes, 3 arts, 3 painful, 3 eccentrick 2 traps 1 fusion spell (these should be counted among the metalfoes) that is 24/40= 3/5. the chance to draw 4 or more of these in 5 cards is 3/5^4=81/625 so i already get like 12%. but there's no reason to argue odds when u can just follow the ocg like a good sheep.

if u want to play the deck where u rely more on metalfoes you should be using anteatereatingant, searching 2 combinations, summoning that, and using it with gofu for tzolkin or ur fusion for durendal. anteatereatingant is perfect for pure metalfoes. but its still not quite so good because generic power monsters still end up being better than the amazing anteatereatingant.

Quote

The fusions don't do this either, but one is require for Tzolken- keep in mind you're all playing gofu unless you're the guy in Tokyo, why the fuck would you want to decrease the amount of times you can resolve Tzolken, a play that needs 2 metalfoe? 

the extra deck can be tight after inov, so u end up having to choose  between stein or gofu in the ocg. gofu is punished by maxx c so thats not good. but why ocg players still keep playing it i think has to do with how it can let u make lv 8 synchros before u pendulum summon when u go 2nd.

Quote

and if that is the case, you need to understand that this deck is fucking garbage compared to Magician Pendulum, or hell, just 40 good pendulum + Sky Iris.

magician pendulum hinges on abductor or iris resolving when it goes first. it flat out lose to typhoon and gosr (both seeing a lot of play in ocg and will here too for abc) but metalfoes are much more resilient to those. plus metalfoes can main stein and jowgen/pachy. thats the main things that metalofes have over other pendulums pre inov. that and recovery from the traps and fusion spell and being able to use cupidity to its fullest, and its  all those things combined that just makes it a bit more solid of a  pendulum deck all around.

 

 

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Squiddy    9278

ya, i agree with some of yzans choices and engines like speedroids and jowgan. tbh hes one of the only bridge we have bitween tcg and ocg and with experience in both big major tcg and ocg tourneys so we should definitely use his insight to compare and contrast methods of thinking. i think its safe to say that the ban list is going to render the current 3 decks unplayable so that leaves metalfoes and blue eyes as potential continders and im not sure how blue eyes outs jowgan at all. it sounds like the only time that deck can win is if they go first and stick a spirit and it definitely feels more cluncky and brickworthy in comparison to metalfoes

 

imo pot is also a staple at 3 in every deck worth playing and this one especially. instant +1 with basically no drawback, but i do like the point of playing smart wit pot and activating it after u establish all of the resources ie. searching counter etc. i see the ocg players playing 1 painful at most and am not sure how this deck really needs any search carts since all u need is a high and low scale + monster as we established above. carts like painful and art seem really dead after t1 and i dont think they are worth playing multiples just to increase consistency when the deck already seems super consistent due to high numbar of scales and also pot of desires (|:|)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+Satchmo    3226

Are all of you just assuming they're going to ban every magician, abductor and sky iris? Because that's the only way this deck is gonna come in a sweep shit off the map, and I don't see that happening. I'd argue even with the OCG hits, Magician is just a far better pendulum deck than metalfoes is, especially when we're comparing hard drawing metalfoes to hard drawing magicians.

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×