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+Satchmo    3226

This is it currently, it has yet to be moved to Deck Discussion for a few reasons. 

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Sanjura    6725
1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

This is it currently, it has yet to be moved to Deck Discussion for a few reasons. 

im a lazy sack of shit handed it over to this guy because I'm too busy atm to do another guide

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Axle    1215
2 hours ago, Satchmo said:

Are all of you just assuming they're going to ban every magician, abductor and sky iris? Because that's the only way this deck is gonna come in a sweep shit off the map, and I don't see that happening. I'd argue even with the OCG hits, Magician is just a far better pendulum deck than metalfoes is, especially when we're comparing hard drawing metalfoes to hard drawing magicians.

Nah if Pend Call goes to 1 then Metalfoes are definitely better. Metalfoes are just a better scales than Magicians and you'll have to play more magicians if you lose Call and Monkeyboard like the OCG hits, or just go really heavy on the Sky Iris to the point of just losing if they get rid of it. 

What even pre-inov Metalfoes have over Magicians
1) Generate card advantage off every Metalfoes effect (something Magician can't do without drawing (and setting up) Oaf

2) Through their card advantage, they gain good resilience to scale destruction (counter, comb)..Magicians doesn't have something like this w/o call.

3) They are strictly either 1 or 8, making them more reliable. Magicians get shittier if you have to run more if Call is hit or go heavier on the odd-eyes stuff.

4) With suboptimal hands they can setup walls (via 2 counter) which yes can be easily broken, but will prevent losing the next turn and  on your next turn use Counter effect in grave to add whatever you special summoned last turn to hand and  go off. 

5) gofu, jowgen, easy 2x ariadne eff, etc. Metalfoes can play better "power cards" because of their scale effect (sky iris can imitate this, but much worse). These cards are also always good without an optimal hand due to Gofu just needing another level 3 , Ariadne needing 1 Metalfoe, Speedroid always being good if you go that way. Speedroid or Gofu can out ASF/backrow as well.

6) free fusions which are relevant at times

----

What magicians will have over Metalfoes under those hits:
1) The ability to 1-1 backrow and monsters once per turn. 

2) their 1 copy of pendulum call

3) Sky Iris/abductor/etc shenanigans. 

I'm definitely underselling them a bit, but I really don't think the Magicians by themselves are that great and Call is entirely the deciding factor because otherwise Metalfoes just have much better searching, stickier scales and more card advantage. 

 

Can I see what your current build is so I can judge your experiences better? My current is what I already said of cards to run + whatever last 7 cards I'm testing. I don't even feel the current Metalfoes are much weaker than the current  Magician decks and I'm wondering what is causing you to have these experiences that you think the deck is really that weak where Call @ 1 and no Monkeyboard makes it still worse than Magician. 

 

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+Satchmo    3226

My build isn't optimized, I'm waiting for a list to really care. And I don't think this deck is worse than magician as much as I think simply focusing on the scales is underselling metalfoe when the niche it has is all its cards contact fuse. There are far better ways to play high scale low scale deck than this. 

 

Im on mobile cbf to open devpro and screenshot, so going off memory:

 

12 metalfoe

3 decision 

3 summoner art

6 majespecter

2 qlifags

3 desires

3 metalfoe fusion, but I was gonna cut it to 2 for an upstart

2 counter

3 gofu

Forgetting the last 3 cards but it should be some 3-of spell unless the build still plays abductor, not certain off hand.  I tested out Jowgen a while back, he was kinda neat when in conjunction with something else on board. I think I ended up cutting it on assumption it would be a mirror match format and you have cards to just run over lone jowgen and play in mp2. But depending on how the field shapes up itll probably be worth returning to. 

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Axle    1215

"3 Metalfoes Fusion..or even 2 w/ Upstart"

But why tho? It's so damn searchable and returns to deck after using it. 1 copy is all any deck should ever need. I don't see how you're in a situation of using it more than twice a turn and it's actually good. You were playing 1 before even. What made you decide to play more? 

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Regarding the specific points where Metalfoes is potentially superior to Pendulum Magician and variants.

1. Inability to play Desires like Metalfoes can. There are too many potential one-of's that Desires can send away forever. Off the top of my head Light Phoenix, Odd-Eyes Unicorn, Joker, Monkeyboard, Dragonpulse, Wisdom Eye, and Odd-Eyes Fusion are probably the most likely potential victims. Nobledragon and Majespecter backrow are other potential losses.

2. Magician needs to play extraneous copies of identical or identically functioning cards to function. I see stuff like 3 Iris 3 Terraforming all the time, which causes issues with drawing multiples copies, though some address this by putting in a Secret Village or Necrovalley.

3. Magician is generally limited to 1 pop a turn due to Sky Iris's hard OPT, unless they draw or search Sorcerer. Metalfoes is generally able to pull off at least 2. This allows Metalfoes to more efficiently abuse floating effects or plus effects like Ariadne, Vortex Trooper, Scout/Monolith, Armageddon Knight/Archfiend Heiress, and the token summoning effect of Gofu. And in the OCG, Cyber-Stein.

4. Superior synchro access. I rarely see Pendulum Magician running Luster Pendulum/Ingister, and most of their levels are incompatible with Gofu, without only Bunbuku, and Eccentrick being able to sync effectively with him. Metalfoes can use Tzolkin (albeit with significant card investment), and Gofu alone can make lvl 8s with Silverd and lvl 7s with Steelen. Synchro access can be improved with E-Tele/Ghost Ogre.

5. Metalfoes have a built in method of scale recovery from field wipes. Pendulum Magician heavily rely on the targeting protection of Sky Iris. If they can't reach it turn 1 (41% likely assuming 3 Iris, 3 Terraforming, and an Upstart) then they have no real mechanism of recovery from a scale wipe (courtesy of Ignister, well placed Twin Twister, multiple Dragon Spirits of White, etc.). If given a single turn of setup, Metalfoe can set up multiple Counters, which will help with re-establishing scales.

6. Metalfoes has a greater pool of generic support and tech to draw from. Normal Psychic Pendulums have a large number of generics they can utilize. Painful Decision is the only one that's essentially mandatory. Luster Pendulum is there because unlike in Magician this deck is fully of level 4s and basically every pendulum is there in multiples. Then we can get into the really, really weird shit, like Tyrant's Throes (Igknights all over again), Psi-Impulse, E-Tele along w/ Ghost Ogre, Box of Friends w/ Master Pendulum, Fluffal Owl/Poly/First of the Dragons.

7. Ability to put pressure without reliance on the pendulum summon. As noted before this deck is better at using Gofu, meaning that it is better at making synchros before the pendulum summon. The searchable fusion spell also allows you to put beaters on the board without committing to a *pray that isn't a Strike* pendulum summon.  And Orihulk can be popped to clear backrow.

8. Better scales. The Foe's 1-8 scales' consistency lets you tech in stuff that Magician can't really afford to (Jowgen comes to mind). Getting mismatched scales can be played out since if at least one is a Foe you can pop for Combination to set up a search next turn.

Axle has covered the comparative strengths of Pendulum Magicians. And on the subject of Speedroids, Red Eyed Dice can give Black Rose access. 

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Sanjura    6725

i can't really see the merits of anything more than 1 fusion unless you think that you're going to get pooped on by white and cosmic cyclone homie :/

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+Satchmo    3226

Avoiding situations where I can't search before desires and it's come up where I've resolved it twice in a turn. The point in which I was playing 1 was a point in which I wasn't playing Desires because I didn't know it existed. 

---------------

I also don't think any card that isn't limited is a factor along side desires when you can just play more copies of (x). Alternatively, (x)  can just be cut (specifically dragonpulse). The rest I'll try to refrute tomorrow. 

-----------------------

Edit:

"f ur saying to use 12 metalfoes, 3 arts, 3 painful, 3 eccentrick 2 traps 1 fusion spell (these should be counted among the metalfoes) that is 24/40= 3/5. the chance to draw 4 or more of these in 5 cards is 3/5^4=81/625 so i already get like 12%. but there's no reason to argue odds when u can just follow the ocg like a good sheep."

This is another thing, I didn't account for those cards but if you're gonna account for eccentrick then I'm uncertain how that card is much better than summoners art if it's clogging as well and only functions as an engine piece with 2 other cards. 

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10 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I also don't think any card that isn't limited is a factor along side desires when you can just play more copies of (x). Alternatively, (x)  can just be cut (specifically dragonpulse). The rest I'll try to refrute tomorrow. 

Monkey, Joker, and Wisdom-Eye are limited. The others are run at low copies because they're terrible or situational draws that the deck wants kept in the maindeck until it actually needs it. Then you're in a bit of a potential lose-lose situation with Desires. You can run 1 to keep the risk of drawing them at a minimum, then if you use Desires and banish that one copy it is lost forever. You run 2, then you are more likely to brick with it. Pendulum Magician opening with any of Phoenix, Unicorn, Fusion, or any Majespecter backrow is usually the same a opening with 1 less card.

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Axle    1215
26 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

 

-----------------------

Edit:

"f ur saying to use 12 metalfoes, 3 arts, 3 painful, 3 eccentrick 2 traps 1 fusion spell (these should be counted among the metalfoes) that is 24/40= 3/5. the chance to draw 4 or more of these in 5 cards is 3/5^4=81/625 so i already get like 12%. but there's no reason to argue odds when u can just follow the ocg like a good sheep."

This is another thing, I didn't account for those cards but if you're gonna account for eccentrick then I'm uncertain how that card is much better than summoners art if it's clogging as well and only functions as an engine piece with 2 other cards. 

How does Eccentrick only function as an engine piece? It's also an s/t destruction, reusable exiled force and rank 7 scale. Then you have the Metalfoes exclusive added ability to give any scale you want as long as you can search out Combination. It's a highly flexible card which is why I love it. The only dead card in this "engine" is hard drawing Combination. Which can suck but worst case scenario it's a free search on your next turn or can be used for it's fusion summon revive effect. 

Yes Eccentrick needs 2 other cards, but if you can't fulfil the condition of 1 other Metalfoe and something to destroy, you probably weren't going to have a playable hand anyway.

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+Satchmo    3226

Going down that list

Joker and Wisdom-Eye are on point
Monkeyboard functions as a second copy of joker, I wouldn't be worried about banishing it as much as banishing Joker itself.
I wouldn't be playing Fusion and Majespecter traps together, iirc this deck is meant to go first, so I'm not sure you would need to keep Fusion in the main as opposed to siding it in going second. And vice versa with majespecter traps. I've seen decks playing 2 traps as is, that's not out of the question.
I don't think Phoenix and Unicorn are as awful as you make them out to be, assuming the odd-eyes scale 8 coming out in a few weeks doesn't get played. You could arguably still play 1 phoenix and just not care if it gets banished.
 

3 minutes ago, Axle said:

How does Eccentrick only function as an engine piece? It's also an s/t destruction, reusable exiled force and rank 7 scale. Then you have the Metalfoes exclusive added ability to give any scale you want as long as you can search out Combination. It's a highly flexible card which is why I love it. The only dead card in this "engine" is hard drawing Combination. Which can suck but worst case scenario it's a free search on your next turn or can be used for it's fusion summon revive effect. 

You keep reading my posts wrong. I said it's not an engine piece unless you get to combination, a card a lot of you are playing 1 of, so you need 2 other cards to hit it. I don't know how many real decks are playing traps, because right not it's just Majespecter and Demise decks. Exiled Force isn't very good, since most of the monsters you'd be popping have some sort of built in protection, barring the mirror I'd think. 

Also, the only reason we're talking about dead engine pieces is because Buckwheats pointed out my semi-flawed math. Mind you, it was because you said hands of 4 metalfoes are bad and wanted the math on that, which kind of contradicts what you say here.

--------------------------------------
also the last 3 cards in my deck were abductor but I'm cutting that for something else. It's not as good as I thought it was.

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Axle    1215

You can destroy:
3 Raccoon

3 Kirin

2 Qliphs

Any wrong scale Metalfoe

1 Luster

3 Gofu's tokens

and a few other things

So that's around 25 cards in your deck that count as something to destroy and search Combination for Eccentrick? After destroying them you just Pend them back with the scales you fixed. 

Then the remaining cards are like Pot of Desires, Painful Decision, maybe Summoner's Art, etc which will get you what you need anyway. 

That's a bit different than me suggesting that having a lot of Metalfoes is a good thing. If I have 2 proper Metalfoes then I'll probably using Eccentrick as S/t destruction and some other stuff then do power play stuff. 

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buckwheatloaf    190
Quote

This is another thing, I didn't account for those cards but if you're gonna account for eccentrick then I'm uncertain how that card is much better than summoners art if it's clogging as well and only functions as an engine piece with 2 other cards. 

 

summoners art does nothing helpful going second. searching scout is no good cuz trying to pend out machines if the pend summon even works to then try to overlay for infinity is never gonna happen unless u had a bunch of stuff to clear their defenses first. which is what u need to emphasize in ur deck building and why gofu and eccentricks are so good. they do good stuff going 2nd but also add consistency (eccentrick destroy combination) and power (gofu) going 1st. 

by playing sumoners arts u totally are saying you want to lose when you have to go second game 1. ur basically yelling that to the world. 40 card decklists with 3 arts and qlis says "I WANT TO LOSE WHEN  I GO SECOND".

 

 

 

 

 

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M.C.B.    173
1 hour ago, buckwheatloaf said:

 

summoners art does nothing helpful going second. searching scout is no good cuz trying to pend out machines if the pend summon even works to then try to overlay for infinity is never gonna happen unless u had a bunch of stuff to clear their defenses first. which is what u need to emphasize in ur deck building and why gofu and eccentricks are so good. they do good stuff going 2nd but also add consistency (eccentrick destroy combination) and power (gofu) going 1st. 

by playing sumoners arts u totally are saying you want to lose when you have to go second game 1. ur basically yelling that to the world. 40 card decklists with 3 arts and qlis says "I WANT TO LOSE WHEN  I GO SECOND".

That would be true if you took out Gofu or Eccentricks to fit Arts, which you wouldn't. 

Going second (which you would ideally want with this deck) gives you an extra card and you would want that card to be a Metalfoes monster because of possible opponents removal cards and because you have to use Eccentrick/Kirin to deal with opponents field and not be used as scales. So if a Metalfoes card #1 and an Art card (volfram/cannon) are used as scales that leaves you with the Metalfoes monster #2 for Fusion (out of 2 Metalfoes monsters everyone is saying you want to open on the previous page).

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buckwheatloaf    190
25 minutes ago, M.C.B. said:

That would be true if you took out Gofu or Eccentricks to fit Arts, which you wouldn't. 

Going second (which you would ideally want with this deck) gives you an extra card and you would want that card to be a Metalfoes monster because of possible opponents removal cards and because you have to use Eccentrick/Kirin to deal with opponents field and not be used as scales. So if a Metalfoes card #1 and an Art card (volfram/cannon) are used as scales that leaves you with the Metalfoes monster #2 for Fusion (out of 2 Metalfoes monsters everyone is saying you want to open on the previous page).

if u just advocate speedroids i wouldn't have any reason to argue. more ocg lists used speedroids than summoners arts and qlis by far, and they are just the more sensible inclusion to a 40ish card metalfoes deck than summoners arts.

im not sure u want to go 2nd with this deck. i know u def dont in the ocg but that may be more due to their meta than anything about metalfoes. since they've abc and d/d/d and dark synchro running around and u cant give any of those decks the luxury of going first.

but if u do want to go second then qlis and arts are even more mysterious to me. after you do a successful pendulum summon infinity would just be win moar. so u'd have to be playing the arts for consistency. but more redundant consistency is the last thing u need when u go 2nd.

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2 hours ago, M.C.B. said:

That would be true if you took out Gofu or Eccentricks to fit Arts, which you wouldn't. 

Going second (which you would ideally want with this deck) gives you an extra card and you would want that card to be a Metalfoes monster because of possible opponents removal cards and because you have to use Eccentrick/Kirin to deal with opponents field and not be used as scales. So if a Metalfoes card #1 and an Art card (volfram/cannon) are used as scales that leaves you with the Metalfoes monster #2 for Fusion (out of 2 Metalfoes monsters everyone is saying you want to open on the previous page).

Going second with this deck is generally a terrible idea. Dealing with Spirit Dragon, an opposing Jowgen + Spark Dragon/Kirin setup, or Strikes is something I would rather not do. The only real reason to run Summoner's Art is if you put in the two Qlis, and the Qlis have their own inherent issues, that being that they conflict with Desires (banish one, make other useless), Monolith bricks, and going second since the only way Infinity is going to hit the field is if they have no answers at all.

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M.C.B.    173
1 hour ago, buckwheatloaf said:

if u just advocate speedroids i wouldn't have any reason to argue. more ocg lists used speedroids than summoners arts and qlis by far, and they are just the more sensible inclusion to a 40ish card metalfoes deck than summoners arts.

im not sure u want to go 2nd with this deck. i know u def dont in the ocg but that may be more due to their meta than anything about metalfoes. since they've abc and d/d/d and dark synchro running around and u cant give any of those decks the luxury of going first.

but if u do want to go second then qlis and arts are even more mysterious to me. after you do a successful pendulum summon infinity would just be win moar. so u'd have to be playing the arts for consistency. but more redundant consistency is the last thing u need when u go 2nd.

Just to be clear I myself dropped Qli for Cannon. They were win more or dead. Arts are to get to Volfram or the low scale. 

In TCG we have Dark hole+Raigeki (which are key for going second) and those cards solve just about any field single handed.

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3 hours ago, M.C.B. said:

Just to be clear I myself dropped Qli for Cannon. They were win more or dead. Arts are to get to Volfram or the low scale. 

In TCG we have Dark hole+Raigeki (which are key for going second) and those cards solve just about any field single handed.

There is this card called Majespecter Unicorn - Kirin, and you won't believe what doesn't work on it. Also, Return of the Dragon Lords' graveyard effect. The only thing they work on is a White Spirit Dragon without Return in the grave. I would actually prefer Sword of Concealing like because they work around these and it stay on the field for a potential Metalfoe pop.

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Hey @themaninblack don't be so hard on Buckwheats for what he did on Pojo. I mean I could have come here FIRST for instance; it was bound to happen one of these days

e9e1de9c47e045ff9d590b75a03a2810.png

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So I'm trying not to get spoonfed but I'm new to theory. I'm trying to figure out how jowgen got into the deck. Is it to slow the opponent down until you can set up a board and being able to pop it on command with any metalfoe scale? I need to know if my thought process is on the right track. 

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buckwheatloaf    190

the ocg just used it all the time so thats where it came from. they were either maining or siding 2 or so. now they mostly only side it, and just sometimes. but u have to remember they've stein and the last warrior from another planet, so they've been using jowgen on top of that this whole time so if anything we should be prepared for jowgen to make a bigger splash in tcg metalfoes than it did there.

its mostly good just cuz its a vanity fiend that u can destroy on ur turn like u said. infernoids have used fire barrier statue, mermails have used the water one, and majespecters have used the wind one. jowgen/pachy r metalfoes's barrier statues. the d/d ocg decks love their vanity's fiend. why? not only does it floodgate their opponent but it but  stops their things from being tributed to lava golem and santa claws which are both popular there atm. one of their things can negate a spell so swords of concealing light wont even help. the same reasons for vanity being good in d/d apply to jowgen being good in metalfoes. it protects ur stuff (kirin, crystal wing/void ogre) from being tributed, and ur stuff (kirin, cyrstal wing/voidogre) protects it. and then on top of that its its own floodgate. 

oh yeah and kaijus and slumbers dont affect jowgen anymore than golems and santa claws, so its a pretty safe bet it'll be just as effective here.

now its not being used as much in the ocg since ABC replaced a lot of the decks that jowgen was really good against there and many main mst for fragrance.

 

 

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Dang people why all the downvote hate? I just thought I'd joke around with buckwheat and themaninblack over something that happened over in the Pojo Metalphoes thread. I swear I'm not gonna interfere with your sacred thread here guys so lay off.

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2 hours ago, AperfectKING said:

So I'm trying not to get spoonfed but I'm new to theory. I'm trying to figure out how jowgen got into the deck. Is it to slow the opponent down until you can set up a board and being able to pop it on command with any metalfoe scale? I need to know if my thought process is on the right track. 

Jowgen is being used here in the same vein that it was used in Judgment Spellbooks. You get it out early, protect it, and slowly poke your opponent to death. Spellbook would summon Jowgen in defense, Fate would deal with their normal summon, and the other guy would get beaten by multiple Blue Boys eventually.

In here it's the same thing essentially. Say you open Jowgen, Bunbun/Kirin, and 3 other cards to get a full set of 1-8 scales. You do your thing and set up scales, the pendulum summon everything including the Jowgen in defense, Kirin, and at least 1 other pendulum monster. Jowgen stops them from doing anything, and Kirin protects the Jowgen by bouncing back the other pendulum monster. Jowgen + Kirin alone is easily beaten since you can't pendulum summon the Kirin back if he has to use himself for his effect.

Then your opponent is usually on a 2 turn clock to out the field or die. Because if you open like this you would use one Metal scale turn one to pop for Combination. Turn 2 you pop combination for Goldriver.

So for example

Your turn 1

Open Jowgen, Kirin, 1 and 8 Metal Scale, random pendulum OR Jowgen, Bunbun, 1 and 8 scale, random card

Pop random pendulum w/ Metal, set combination, ps Kirin, Jowgen, and random pendulum/Bunbun in defense, other Metal pops first scale for Counter

Their turn 1

Summon monster, get Kirin bounced targetting random pendulum/Bunbun

Your turn 2

Second Metal scale pops Combination to search Goldriver (1900 atk)

Goldriver and Kirin attack for 3900 total

Their turn 2

Same as their turn 1

Your turn 3

Turn Jowgen into attack. Attack for 4100 total to kill them.

 

Then they are other plays involving Stardust Spark Dragon w/ Gofu, but let's not go there right now.

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