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Conspire

N'Zoth Rogue

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Conspire    2391

RogueDeathrattle.PNG

 

https://gyazo.com/a1da9b090e0c47f399b91970551eccda

This is the deathrattle Rogue build I've been playing lately.  I've used it exclusively this season and played it a lot near the end of last season.  I peaked at legend rank 114 before losing a few to aggro Shaman.

I wanted to post this because it feels like an incredibly strong ladder deck in this meta.  I've been farming Hunters, Warriors, Paladins and Druids and have a fair match-up against zoo, mid-range Shaman and Rogue.  Poor match-ups are aggro Shaman, Renolock and Pirates.   The deck is basically Miracle Rogue minus the clunky combo pieces.  Instead of playing Cold Blood, Leeroy Jenkins and Conceal you're playing Undercity Huckster, Journey Below and N'Zoth.  I've also stuck with Mr Yagut's build and swapped 1 copy of Gagdetzan Auctioneer for Sprint.  The general idea is still the same but you trade off the ability for huge combos to gain more consistency and less reliance on a game-winning combo.

The varieties of ways this deck can win are plentiful.  Mana cheat cards like Backstab and Preparation let you get ahead on board, even against zoo and Shaman, and gaining tempo and pushing chip damage happens frequently.  This gives you routes for both burst and advantage wins.  A big Van Cleef play is a win condition vs some decks.  Journey Below -> Anub'Arak is a win condition vs Control Warrior.  If Xaril gives you the shadowstep poison saving it + coin for the N'Zoth turn can win a control match-up.  The conceal poison can also lead to winning plays, most commonly with Auctioneer or Van Cleef.  Voilet Teacher can snowball as well.

Overall I've found that even without the late game miracle combos the deck has more than enough to beat control.

Has anyone else been playing this deck?

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».ben.    7438

I tried similar variations of the deck for a while last season but to little avail. Sometimes it worked, but when a deck with so little survivability aims toward making it into the late game, I found it failing quite often. The issue was magnified by the hero power being rendered essentially useless. 

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+Paraliel+    8030

Question, what makes this more well positioned than the Paladin variant?

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Conspire    2391

N'Zoth Paladin is much slower and less flexible.  It can't cheat mana, develop early threats, maintain pressure or burst.  It requires more specific 2 card combos (2 out of conc/pyro/equality) and they cost more mana.  Rogue can board clear as early as turn 3 and develops a threat at the same time.  Rogue presents threats starting turn 3/4 and Paladin has to wait until turn 6/8.  Paladin can't run Azure Drake with any effectiveness while Rogue can utilize Azure/Bloodmage exceptionally well.  Rogue gets to play Sap which is an absolutely disgusting tempo card.  Finally, Rogue has more tricks and is harder to play around.  Huckster draws are pretty much impossible to play around.  Xaril poisons/Journeys can give you a lot more combos/tricks/routes that throw a wrench in your opponent's plans.

The deck is actually not trying to make it to the late game.  It's not afraid of going late, and often that happens because you keep making value trades and building advantage over the opponent, but it's certainly not trying to stall for a big N'Zoth.  N'Zoth is just a huge threat that provides a lot of gas even if your opponent has a board clear in reserve.

I would also strongly disagree that the deck lacks survivability.  Mana cheat is the best way to survive early game rushes and Prep/Backstab in combination with other cards prevent you from taking much damage early.  Dealing with minions while at the same time playing your own gives you the power of attacking so you can keep dealing with more minions.  Sure, you lose out to an aggro Shaman god hand but there aren't many decks that beat that, and the decks that do tend to run into unfavorable match-ups far more frequently on the ladder.

I do agree that the hero power is not a focal point of the deck at all.  It's generally 2 instances of "deal 1 damage with your face" which does help you clear some stuff off the board in the early stages of the game.  It's pretty decent against zoo and Hunter.  Otherwise it's a liability to Harrison.  I make sure to never have a 2 durability dagger up, even if it means replacing a 1/1 dagger before attacking face or just dealing 1 damage to face on turn 4.  I've actually thought of Sir Finley in the deck to potentially get something more useful but I'm not sure what I would want to replace at this point.  After running the deck for a couple weeks everything feels really solid.

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wonderPreaux    1408

Do you have a general sense for how to mulligan with this, I'm thinking of trying it out. Does it pretty much open the same as Miracle?

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Conspire    2391

The best mulligan advice I ever heard was "think about your opponent's curve."  Doing that has really helped me mulligan properly which is a big part of success in Hearthstone.  This deck is no exception to that.  Think about what your opponent wants to do in the first 1-3 turns and keep cards that interact favorably with what your opponent wants to do.  Think about your curve and how you want to respond.  When you're on the coin more options open up.  Not only do you have better plays with SI-7 Agent but you also get an extra card, so holding onto a combo like Preparation/Shadow Strike is acceptable if the deck you're playing against wants to make an early power play with a tougher minion.  Ex. Warrior (Frothing Berserker), Hunter (Animal Companion), Zoo (Darkshire Councilman/Imp Gang Boss) or Shaman (Totem Golem.)

Consider the likelihood of you activating your combo effects and how important activating the combo effects are when deciding whether or not to keep them.  Ex. vs Warrior I'll generally ship Si-7 Agent unless I also have Backstab.  The reason is the the Agent isn't good vs most Warrior openers and isn't a good 3 drop play because of War Axe.  With Backstab, however, it is a good answer to Frothing or Pirate openers.  Vs. Warrior I generally want to be playing a Huckster if I draw it and a Tomb Pillager ahead of my opponent's turn 4.

Generally I almost always keep Undercity Huckster, Si-7 Agent and Backstab.  I'll keep Tomb Pillager if I expect my opponent's opener to be slow.  I'll keep Preparation if I expect my opponent's opener to be explosive and/or I know I need to get ahead on board early to win.  I'll keep Edwin if I have a Preparation play as well.

Just think about how you expect the first few turns to develop and whether or not you like how it's going to go down with the cards you have.  Ship anything you don't expect to be useful in the opening turns.

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».ben.    7438

This is a better deck than I initially gave it credit for. It's a less all-in rogue which is nice to play. I have played Finley in mine and found it to be nice. Picking up some form of heal in the mid-late game is pretty cool.

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wonderPreaux    1408

I ended up grinding from rank 10 to legend with this deck, going 106-69 overall. I think this deck is super cool, and just wanted to join in the discussion.

I've been running this list the whole time:

9954b42d98.jpg

The differences between my list and Conspire's are pretty straight-forward. Dark Iron Skulker drew my eye because I encountered a lot of Zoo (18% of my opponents overall) and I more or less defaulted to double Gadgetzan, though I thoroughly enjoyed having two. Some thoughts on my experience:

  • Undercity Huckster feels like the game-changer in this deck, it allows both an early game play and a lot of value to sustain going longer when necessary. I also stole more than a few games off Huckster drops (highlights include Doomhammer, Sacrificial Pact, Gorehowl, Hellfire, Power Overwhelming, and Hallazeal the Ascended), though mileage obviously varies there. This is definitely the card that exceeded my expectations in terms of performance.
  • Dark Iron Skulker was really great to have, even against Non-Zoo opponents. It hits stealth minions, Faerie Dragons, double-taps Vek'Lor sometimes, makes Feral Spirit boards easier to manage, and occasionally wrecks Tempo Mage boards. Generally, I'd be happy to just hit, like, 2 things with it against non-Zoo/Aggro decks, as it feels like a close analogue to Azure Drake in terms of setting up kills with spells. 
  • Double Earthen Ring felt really important, just for generic Rogue reasons. I won a few nail biters at 1 hp, manage to kite Freeze Mage for the win a couple times, and it's generally nice to have against Warrior since their primary win condition often involves pressuring life.
  • Idk how to feel about Xaril in this deck. I hated playing his shitty body, but the toxins can be so clutch. The 2-dmg/+3ATK can be critical when the only burst is 2 Eviscerate (This came up a lot against Shaman, where Eviscerates are strained dealing with Totem Golems and the like, but being able to swoop in a turn early saves the game, ofc, matchups like that are often when Xaril's lousy stats are irksome). Draw and Stealth are understandably good with Gadgetzan, very useful utility cards, and the Bloodthistle is very alluring in control matchups (if you can get it).
  • I might have just been playing it wrong, but I feel like I was very disadvantaged against other N'Zoth decks. Most of the issue for me was that Priest/Paladin/Warrior all have board clears and I don't, and it's also really hard to burst down enemies with just 2 Eviscerate when they can all heal up with spells. At some level, though, I can't help but feel that if you wanted to beat Reno/N'Zoth, you'd just be playing Miracle Rogue.
  • Even though this deck is less explosive than Miracle, and, and lacks Conceal, all the VanCleef plays remain strong, since you can still serve us Prep + Fan/Sap/Eviscerate (+ Coin) into VanCleef. Also, because so much of the deck "floats" in terms of Deathrattles, even if my VanCleef got answered, it never felt like the game was just over.

 

I felt like this list was very strong overall, as far as the niche it's supposed to serve on the ladder. It was very good at tearing into Hunters and Warrior, had good game against Zoo and while Shaman was dicey, I never felt I was at a sure loss against it. There are some cards I've been considering, though, and I'm wondering if anyone has any feedback or suggestions:

  • Shadowstep: I've seen some lists running this, both as a way to recycle SI/Earthen Ring against Aggro, and as a way to guarantee repeat N'Zoth instances, as the Xaril combo can be difficult to set up because it requires Coin/Prep and you only have a 36% chance of getting at least 1 Bloodthistle (Journey Below can help this by finding more Xarils, but Xaril's stats often make bigger Deathrattles like Pillager, Cairne, and Sylvanas more appealing, at least in my experience). The concern I have for this is that Shadowstep is really high-synergy/situational and it looks like it'd be very difficult to find mana-efficient ways to get value out of the card unless you're pairing it with a short list of high-impact battlecries.
  • Cold Blood: Kolento's was, at one point, steaming a list that dropped Journey Below and ERF in favor of Argent Squire and Cold Blood. I think teching Cold Bloods against Control could be worthwhile, but I'm not sure how much worse that sort of card is without Conceal, and if that'd be worth the potential bricked hands against Aggro whereas an ERF could at least prolong the game and contest the board.
  • Violet Teacher: I was considering this as an anti-aggro option, seeing it in Conspire's list as well as others, but opted for Skulker due to the prevalence of Zoo and also because it's easier to play, I guess. I'm thinking of switching over and I'm interested in people's experiences with it, how you'd use it in different matchups, that sort of thing. Sitting across from it coming out of Druid decks piqued my interest in the card, though I know it used for more than just tangling with Aggro decks and some people like to use it as another thing to go "all in" on in addition to VanCleef.

Thanks in advance for any feedback, and, ofc, thanks for Conspire for bringing it up, this was great fun to play.

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Conspire    2391

Congrats on Legend dude, glad you enjoyed the deck.

I ended up switching away from this deck during the climb this season because I kept running into C'Thun decks.  This deck has a real problem dealing with C'Thun since it can't damage it down and using Sap on C'Thun isn't exactly ideal.

Before I switched away I had swapped out the Sprint for a Chillmaw.  I always felt myself wanting more heal in the deck and figured a 6/6 taunt was pretty close to more heal in the later stages of the game.  It could also be revived with N'Zoth.  Rarely I would be able to utilize the deathrattle effect, which was actually a good thing since I didn't want to blow up my own board, especially after N'Zoth.  It tested out alright but obviously didn't improve my match-up vs C'Thuns.

Violet Teacher is really good in this deck.  Going like Teacher -> Coin -> Evis turn 5 after they kill Pillager puts you way ahead on board.  The little army of 1/1s can get chip damage in or allow you to trade up.  Teacher also draws out removal, increasing the odds that your Drake and Gadgetzan live and also putting you in a position to play these while ahead in tempo.  Teacher also makes Xaril a little more impressive as those toxins now also summon 1/1s.  I might actually try 2 teacher's in this build to be honest.

Cold Blood doesn't seem great in this kind of deck.  Journey Below should be much more useful vs control decks than Cold Blood when you're not playing Conceal.  Shadowstep is definitely a nifty card but one that I probably couldn't justify running over anything else.  The ability to drop 2nd N'Zoth, give Edwin +4/+4 for 1 mana or get extra uses out of SI are all sweet.  It seems inconsistent though and would reduce your flexibility, since if it's not played with specific cards it's useless.

Regarding Earthen Ring Farseer: I've seen some people drop it and I can understand why.  I sometimes won games with health between 1-3 so was it really necessary to bump up from 10 to 13?  Maybe.  Thing is I did frequently put myself out of range of common plays like Grom + Ichor or Leeroy burst.  Who knows if they actually had it though.  And who knows if a higher impact card turn 3 would've prevented me from taking 3 damage down the line anyways?  I did really like Earthen Ring for healing up my dudes though.  I would really have to play a lot of games without it and actually focus on the value of cards played instead of ERF to really know if it's worth subbing them out.

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wonderPreaux    1408

That's something I noticed too, C'Thun gets really scary really fast. Against Druids/Warriors, my usual tactic was to just try and set large enough N'Zoth boards that it'd be unlike they could kill me/stave off lethal with C'Thun. Though, that's a lot more effective against Druid since they have no draw or board clear.

Chillmaw is an interesting choice. I often noticed against Hunter or Midrange Shaman that I could Journey Below, and stuff like Chillmaw and even Infested Tauren (Blocks Huffer off Call!) would start to look pretty good, because in addition to sponging damage, it erodes their board and comes back with N'Zoth. Sprint was your replacement for 2nd Auctioneer, so I'm curious if changing it to Chillmaw left you missing out on card draw, or if you would've preferred having Chillmaw + Sprint in the deck over Auctioneer entirely.

I might try out Violet Teacher over the Skulker and/or an ERF, since I often had those healing in the dark scenarios, where I don't know if it mattered too much in the end, and being able to trade off or contest with Teacher sounds like a fine substitute for reactively Skulker-ing the board and then trying to find heal. Out of curiosity, how does having Violet Teacher change your mulligans? I figure you wouldn't want it in all the same matchups you would want Pillager, but IDK if I'd feel comfortable keeping a 4 drop against aggro either. Or is it sorta like VanCleef where you just look for opportunities to make a huge swing with Preps and all that? 

 

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