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So Britain looks like it's going to leave the EU

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+rei+    34656

good call. If it's reasonably well written there should be

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+Sophocles    3075
17 minutes ago, Gemstone Mine said:

I think in the long run the eu loses significantly more than the uk does, i wouldn't be suprised if we look again in 5 years and find that britains doing about as well but the eus going under. I doubt it's that extreme, but it is a major blow to the eu.

If you're talking economy, almost 90% of academics disagree with you. ~50% of UK exports and imports are with other EU countries and the UK is part of trade deals with 33 non-EU countries through its EU membership (which will now expire) - several states have already said that they will put any trade negotations with the UK on hold 'til it has sorted out its trade relations with the EU. The UK simply does not have the instituional manpower to negotiate more than 2-3 trade treaties at the same time, so its businesses will have to deal with more tariffs and barriers for decades to come, unless they somehow retain access to the single market - which is highly unlikely.

Conversely the other 27 EU countries' export to the UK represents about 10-15% of their total export.

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TonySK    618

A pool of low information, under-educated, possibly racist, and mostly older generation voters pushing for something that goes against their self-interests? Sounds like some good old fashioned american exceptionalism to me. Also, "we're tired of experts".

And this

http://video.metro.co.uk/video/met/2016/06/24/7034296010219408740/960x540_7034296010219408740.mp4

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Aaron    2027

Honestly anyone even trying to debate that this was a good decision is fucking retarded.

 

fuck your stupid document and do some proper reading. 

 

i blame the leaders of both parties and their lack of leadership and education to the masses.

 

scotland will definitely leave uk now too. 

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»PSK    4447

sure just hop over to Ireland. we're great craic 

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buckwheatloaf    204
5 hours ago, Myth said:

I shoulda put money on Brexit.

oh oh my brother did this and made a lot of  money off this. hes really into european politics but he never went to europe except to go to a conference in spain by the cult he joined that believes in reptile aliens. he's a big fan of ukip and farage, but that's not why he invested this way. it was his dream where he dreamed the result was gonna be 52-48 like it turned out to be. but he told me that he's not saying it was a precognitive dream, hes just saying look, the numbers matched, make of that what u will. also just a heads up  he dreamed trump wins the presidency too.

every1 who has normie siblings please cherish them.

 

 

 

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Azzaw    64

Even when the UK was getting special treatment from the EU, this happened. The only thing left to see really is how the negotiations between the UK and EU will be like. If they still allow the UK to be in free trade zone things won't be as bleak as they seem 

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Conspire    2391

Obviously UK leaving the EU is going to be a GDP negative decision.  As a country they have essentially bought their sovereignty.  The price was some amount of economic growth.  How much that is remains to be seen.

The short term market reactions are going to be far greater than the long term market result.  There's definitely a risk of a temporary recession and ongoing uncertainty.  Gold has gone up as it always does when there's financial uncertainty.  Markets have gone haywire as they always do when there's an economic policy shock.  I expect most global markets will recover in like 10 days.  Not really sure what to expect from UK markets though.

It's definitely in the EU's interest to give the UK a bad deal.  Giving them a good or even a fair deal would be further incentive for other countries to leave as well.  The EU has to show other members that leaving the EU is painful.

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NB96    850

Please scrutinse and help generate debate.

Why the EU? Someone once asked “To what problem is the EU the solution”? Good question. What exactly is the problem that requires independent states to give up their sovereignty, independence and law-making powers, hard won over hundreds of years, to an anti-democratic EU? EU supporters say it’s to keep the peace. But it’s not been the EU that has kept the peace in Europe since 1945. Ithas been the American-led NATO that has kept the peace, not unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, as well as of course our own armed forces as our membership of NATO. The EU is not a cause, but a consequence, of European peace based on the defeat of Nazi National Socialism, the spread of democracy and NATO.And let’s be honest, without America, which is not an EU member, NATO is nothing. After 1945, it was the American-led NATO that stopped any more wars between France and Germany (who fought each other three times in 1870, 1914 and 1939), that stopped the Soviet Union invading Western Europe until the USSR collapsed in 1991, and who oversaw Germany’s peaceful integration into the West during the Cold War. Not the EU.

 

• A couple of months ago, David Cameron said he could see himself leading the Brexit campaign if his renegotiation was unsuccessful. No hint of Brexit leading to catastrophe then. Now he tells us that Brexit would in fact lead to World War III and genocide too! Will Brexit really lead to mighty Luxembourg mobilising its army to fight Holland? Will it lead to Spain launching a new Armada? Will France and Germany suddenly drop 60 years of peaceful cooperation to fight?Are our EU ‘allies’ really savages who can’t wait to wage war if we go? And who will commit genocide? A leaked letter has shown that Cameron was actually plotting with a multinational firm, Serco, to promote the Remain case even before his sham negotiations with the EU had finished and whilst he was still claiming he could envisage leaving the EU. He even asked FTSE firms to put a warning about the dangers of Brexit in their annual reports, again before his negotiations had concluded. So his negotiations were always fake.

 

• The majority of our laws are now made in Brussels Our membership of the EU means that the majority of our laws – around two-thirds and growing - are now already made in Brussels, by unelected bureaucrats and others that we cannot vote for, vote against or hold to account, enforced by the unelected European Court of Justice. How is that democratic? In an article in the Guardian in May 2013 Nick Clegg said that: "Probably half of all new legislation now enacted in the UK begins in Brussels". In February 2014, prior to the European elections, the EU Parliament wrote to journalists asking them to explain to their readers that the “majority” of laws that affect their lives are made in Brussels. According to a recent study by Business for Britain published in March 2015, some 64.7% of UK laws, almost two-thirds, are now made in Brussels, enforced by the unelected European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights

 

• The EU is anti-democratic The EU is not undemocratic, it’s anti-democratic. British voters can throw out the British government if enough of them want that, but we cannot throw out the ‘rulers’ of the EU at the ballot box. In Britain, voters elect all their MPs – 100% – who sit in the House of Commons. If we want to get rid of them or thegovernment, we can do so peacefully through the ballot box. That’s not the case in the EU where at present Britain has just 3.6% of the members of the EU Commission, just 8.2% of the votes in the Council of Ministers and only 9.7% of European MEPs in the European Parliament. How exactly is that democratic? How can British voters, through the ballot box, vote to throw out the EU Commission, Council or EU Parliament?

 

• As Nigel Jones has pointed out, only 3 of the 28 EU states – Britain, Ireland and Sweden – have not within living memory been Communist, Nazi, Fascist or military dictatorship or occupied by the forces of such tyrannies. That might help explain the authoritarian and anti-democratic foundations of the EU, whose founders and present-day leaders distrust democracy and the views of their peoples so much. That is reflected in the EU’s attitude towards referendums. Since 1992, Brussels has lost no fewer than 8 referendums. It only accepted the outcomes of 2 (Denmark 2000, Sweden 2003), ignored 3 (France & Holland 2005, Greece 2015), and made countries vote again to ‘get it right’ in the 3 others (Denmark 1992, Ireland 2001 & 2008). Is that democratic? If it ignores the rejection by Holland in its 2016 referendum of the EU-Ukraine deal that would be the 4th time it has ignored a referendum and the 9th it’s lost.

 

• It gets worse. In November 2011 the EU staged a ‘soft political coup’ and with the help of financiers, removed two democratically elected heads of government - George Papandreou of Greece and Silvio Berlusconi of Italy – replacing them with two unelected EUbureaucrats. British MEP Daniel Hannan said “What we have witnessed is a coup d’état: bloodless and genteel, but a coup d’état none the less”. In May 2016, the EU Commission President vowed to block all right wing populists from power across the EU after getting the power to exert ‘far-reaching’ sanctions on democratically elected governments. The EU Commission has acquired new legal powers and can trigger a “rule of law mechanism” (Article 7 of TEU) against democratic governments that the Commission alone decides has deviated from “the common constitutional traditions” of EU states. Sanctions could be imposed, funding removed and all voting rights could be taken away. That could pave the way for further political coup d’états by the EU against democratically elected governments it doesn’t like.

 

• Britain has little influence in the EU EUsupporters say we have influence and have a ‘leading voice’ in the EU which we will lose if we leave. Really? Over the past 20 years, there have been 72 occasions in the EU Council of Ministers on which Britain has opposed a measure. We have lost on all counts, 72-0. Since David Cameron became Prime Minister in 2010, Britain has voted against 40 measures and lost all of them, 40-0. That represents almost 56% of all 72 measures that we have voted against since 1996. In the last parliamentary term, most British MEPs voted against 576 motions they judged to be against British interest but 485 of them still passed, a failure rate of 84%.

 

• The EU costs Britain around £10 billion a year In 2014, according to the Government’s ‘Pink Book’, Britain paid around £19 billion for being in the EU. We got back around £9 billion (ie the Thatcher Rebate, money for our farmers and research grants for UK universities etcwhich is actually our money being given back to us not ‘free’ EU money we would lose if we left). So we are out of pocket to the tune of around £10 billion a year. And that figure is due to rise. If we left we could spend that money, our money, on things we want such as giving more to the NHS, education, rebuilding our armed forces, rebuilding border controls, housing or perhaps cutting taxes. Or we could stay, and continue to allow the EU to spend it on things we don’t want, to waste it and in some cases to have it stolen. The EU was due to publish a new draft budget and proposals for large spending increases on 25 May 2016 but it has decided to delay publication until after our referendum. Wonder why?

 

• Waste and fraud

 In November 2014 it was reported that according to the EU’s own auditors, £5.5 billion of the EU budget in that year had been misspent because of controls on spending that were deemed to be only “partially effective”. In 2016 it was reported that for the 21st year in succession the EU auditors had refused to give an clean bill of health - signing off without serious reservations - on EU accounts. The auditors said that payments worth billions of pounds were “irregular and possibly illegal”. No serious organisation could get away with having auditors refusing to give it an unqualified ‘clean bill’ of health for 21 years.The board would be sacked, shareholders would revolt and regulators would demand answers. That’s not the only scandal. In 1998 there was a mass resignation of 20 EU Commissioners caused by the EU Commission trying to silence Paul van Buitenen, an EU official who turned whistleblower to expose fraud. In 2002, Marta Andreasen, former European Commissioner Chief Accountant, spoke publicly about her uncovering evidence of mismanagement, incompetence and fraud in the EU budget. She said the situation could be worse than that concerning Enron and its dodgy business accounting standards as it was impossible to trace properly EU accounts. She too was suspended, fined and lost her job because she refused to sign off accounts she believed unreliable. Olaf, the EU anti-fraud agency, said that more than £670 million of EU spending was lost to fraud in 2015. Some 4 in 10 EU officials found to have been implicated were not punished. From January 2013 to December 2015 Olaf issued 58 “disciplinary recommendations” to various EU bodies but only 18 resulted in “action taken”.

 

• Terrorism 

When it comes to Islamic terror, being in the EU didn’t help protect Britain, Holland, Spain, France or Belgium from Islamic terror attacks. In April 2016 it was reported that half of the entire French military, 10,000 fully-armed combat troops, were deployed on streets in major cities across France guarding synagogues, art galleries, nursery schools and metro stations. According to information from Senegal, Islamic State (IS) fighters aretargeting beach goers in Spain, Southern France and Italy this summer. It is estimated that several thousand trained terrorists have reached Europe among more than a million migrants in 2015, some 4,000 by one account in the UK media, or 1,500 according to NATO Commander General Philip Breedlove in his US Congressional testimony on 1 March 2016. Europol estimates that around 5,000 IS fighters have been smuggled into Europe pretending to be refugees. Sir Richard Dearlove, former MI6 head, said leaving the EU would make Britain safer as it would be easier to control our borders and deport terrorists. The former head of Interpol, Ronald Noble, said the EU’s border policy “is like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe”.  Richard Walton, who recently led Scotland Yard’s Counter Terrorism Unit said that collaboration against terror has nothing to do with Brussels, and that “membership of the EU does not really convey any benefits”. The Director of US National Intelligence James Clapper said IS has taken advantage of Europe’s open borders to plant sleeper cells in the UK, Germany and Italy. And a former head of the CIA, Michael Hayden, said that the EU “gets in the way” of security services adding“European defence and security policy has proved to be little more than an aspiration” andthat “Britain is Europe’s leader in intelligence and security matters and gives much more than it gets in return. It is difficult to imagine any of the other EU members ending the relationships they already enjoy with the UK”. Are they all wrong? Does being in the EU make us safer? According to European security officials, there are more than 400 IS fightersready to unleash more terror attacks in Europe who are just waiting for the ‘right time and place’ to cause maximum damage. One security official said “The objective appears to no longer be killing as many people as possible but rather to have as many terror operations as possible”. 

 

• In terms of intelligence, being in the EU makes little difference to our safety. As Fraser Nelson said, where are the EU-wide institutions that are supposed to keep us safe? What are the EU-related intelligence arrangements that we enjoy now and would not enjoy if we left the EU? The EU is not very good at data sharing. There is, for example no agreed upon way of spelling Arabic names which makes tracking Islamist terrorists somewhat difficult. And as yet there is no ability to search the EU-database for fingerprints. Now it has been reported that the European Court of Justice should be allowed to hear appeals from terror suspects on extradition cases if their human rights were being challenged according to one of the Advocate General, one of the key legal advisers to the ECJ. That could make it virtually impossible for Britain to throw out terrorists.

• Mass immigration

 British people are not anti-immigrant or anti-immigration. They are anti-mass immigration. They want limits and controls on how many and who can enter the UK. That’s impossible while we are in the EU. That’s because EU law – which takes priority over British law - means that citizens from all other EU countries are not only legally entitled to move to the UK (whether we want them or not, including those with criminal convictions) but once here can then also receive many of the same benefits as UK citizens. Around half of all immigrants who come to Britain come from the EU. A record 636,000 immigrants came to Britain in the 12 months to March 2015 with a further 623,000 in the year to September 2015. A paper from UK Migration Watch in April 2014 said that over half a million EU migrants were expected to come to the UK in the next 4-5 years. That would roughly be the population of Manchester every four years.  In May 2016, following pressure, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) admitted that it had under counted immigration into Britain by only counting long-term immigrants and leaving out short-term immigrants. If short-term immigrants had also been counted, the ONS said that an extra 1.5 million EU migrants had come to Britain over the past five years. In last set of immigration figures before the EU referendum, the ONS said that in the 12 months to December 2015, immigration into Britain was officially running at 630,000. However, given the under counting, the official figures are even higher. Officially, Britain’s foreign-born population is now approaching 9 million for the first time ever. That’s almost 14% of our population, up from less than 6% in 1991. Given the ONS admission, the true figure will be higher.

The whole Word document is about 30 pages long. It's not really a summary but it will have to do for now. 

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Aaron    2027

lmao.

that document.

 

"being in the EU didn't stop terrorism"

 

fucking hell

 

people are stupid

 

so stupid. 

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Aaron    2027

I also live its mini history lesson at the start.

 

really man 

 

read and educate yourself rather than picking up piece of propaganda and trying to pass it off as a piece of literature which can be respected. 

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Conspire    2391
34 minutes ago, NB96 said:

"To what problem is the EU the solution?"

Tariffs

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+Sophocles    3075

Tariffs are honestly not that big a deal - you either enforce them or you don't. It's stuff like regulations and trade law that form the main international barriers to trade, and the EU is unique in removing virtually all of them in many domains

 

I might post a retort this weekend but at a glance I adressed at least a few posts in my wall of text in the other thread in response to some video Myth linked.

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Conspire    2391
4 minutes ago, Sophocles said:

Tariffs are honestly not that big a deal - you either enforce them or you don't. It's stuff like regulations and trade law that form the main international barriers to trade, and the EU is unique in removing virtually all of them in many domains

 

I might post a retort this weekend but at a glance I adressed at least a few posts in my wall of text in the other thread in response to some video Myth linked.

It may have been more prudent of me to say "international barriers to trade" but I thought a one-word answer had more snark.

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Ynusgridorh    142
7 hours ago, ACP said:

Great decision UK! Hopefully next, Florida will secede from the United States. Having to be part of the US is totally unfair. We should be free to make our own decisions. How else are we going to control our immigration? We've got people flooding in from places like Cuba and Puerto Rico, and our federal government is doing nothing about it! Then we all have to pay federal income taxes for services that other states use. Ridiculous! Why should we be responsible for paying the federal debt? Us good Floridians have nothing to do with that. Did you know that some people in congress are from states other than Florida? Why should we let people not from Florida vote on laws that also apply to Florida? That's not democracy. Once Florida secedes, I'm sure it will prove to be just as good of an outcome as UK leaving the EU.

What a poor analogy. Does it aso bother you that the United States is an independent country? We should merge it with other countries that have completely different histories, cultures, law systems and interests like Mexico, China, Russia and Saudi Arabia into a giant federal state, give that state non-elected leaders and let it decide of America's fate. If people disagree, just bring up the Florida analogy.

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NB96    850
10 hours ago, Conspire said:

Tariffs

In the Uk's situation, we don't necessarily need to stay in the EU for that. You can join the EFTA, which Britain was once a founding member of (we are already a member of the EEA, as are all current EU members, which we are as we wont be leaving the EU fully for 2 years yet) gaining legal access to tarriff free trade. Not too dissimilar from Norway and Switzerland's approach.

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NB96    850

Aaron you keep saying do some proper reading but all you've presented on this thread are very vague arguments on te previous page, and are having a complete fucking meltdown lol. Both those posts you've made on this page say nothing really, Sophocles is also mistaken in some of his posts but he's giving his argumentswhich I have more time for, Aaron just isn't really saying anything to be honest, other than hurling insults because you know best.

There's going to be ups and downs but people need to get this doomsday scenario shit out of their head. 1 in 5 German cars are sold to Britain? I'm sure they'll want to stop trading negotiations with us (not really because we can't negotiate for ourselves in the first place, the EU does it) until this is sorted and cease 20% of earnings just like that. These EU countries will continue to trade with Britain because they need our business more than than they are willing to admit (obviously they wont admit it because it weakens their position).

The free movement argument, I might be mistaken but I'm pretty sure you just need a passport to get around once we're out whereas you didn't before.

Scotland can go be independant if they want, they don't really offer Britain terribly much that we couldn't already get for ourselves if we put in some effort in.

I'll challenge Aaron to give me three bullet points that aren't vague as shit on why we made a mistake and should have stayed. The £ dropping today was no surprise by the way, its begun strengthening already and you just give it some patience, it was never going to be a quick fix in my eyes.

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website is bad    2172
1 hour ago, Ynusgridorh said:

What a poor analogy. Does it aso bother you that the United States is an independent country? We should merge it with other countries that have completely different histories, cultures, law systems and interests like Mexico, China, Russia and Saudi Arabia into a giant federal state, give that state non-elected leaders and let it decide of America's fate. If people disagree, just bring up the Florida analogy.

 

Less than 200 years ago many American states weren't part of America! Let's call on Maine, Missouri, Arkansas, Michigan, Florida, Texas, Iowa, Wisconsin, California, Minnesota, Oregon, Kansas, West Virginia, Nevada, Nebraska, Colorado, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, Alaska, and Hawaii to secede as they do not have much of a shared history with the rest of America.

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were there any reasons to stay that werent economic, even then shouldnt everything stabalize? Its not like the ability to produce just disappears, and with the pound down in value wouldnt that be a bigger incentive to import from Britain?

only agement i'm seeing from people that wanted to remain is calling people stupid and pointing at the market drop caused by the uncertanity of this. Surely trade wont be affected 

 

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honestly the comments in this thread and pretty much everything i see on facebook is what i hate about politics, every idea that isnt the one that they hold either makes the other party worse than hitler or worse than stalin. I dont get why everyone has to imediatly dismiss an idea because it's left/right

 

 

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website is bad    2172

The millions of EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU who will be displaced for a bunch of lies seems like a pretty good reason to not listen to people literally lying to get out of the EU cuz they hate immigrants.

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website is bad    2172

And no, things like preferential treatment in the single market and the funds to have the NHS exist at all will not "stabilize".

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like i said before i have very little idea on european politics, but when peoples only arguement is either ur stupid or u h8 brown people i get sceptical about their position, and even then if its over 50% of the population that thinks that way there are bigger problems

surely having assets, experience and contacts in place already will let people remain in the market or find new markets. Starting up a business that deals internationally would be harder though i imagine.

also wouldnt this boost the local economy since it may now be cheaper to produce in country

the way it looks for me is that people are unhappy with the status quo and want to renegotiate

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