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NB96

Barclays Premier League 2016/17

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15 hours ago, Urthor said:

Dellis Alli is not that much of a prospect.  He's a potential quality international footballerl but there's plenty of players like him in the Barcelona academy.  Only issue is that he is the only prospect in a country that has a fraction of the international talent it had 10 years ago.  

 

 

Every year he can avoid being picked as an England international will be better for him. 

Talent is not really the issue for England because we do have plenty of it and even now I think we have quite a lot of talented players. Problem has always been the FA appointing the wrong manager or a manager that picks a team based on rep. 

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Faint    5720

Fruits, a couple of points here:

 

1) Herrera is utd best midfielder at the moment - but being the best of a really bad bunch (atm, think pogba will eventually come good) says nothing - herrera is an average of like 6/10 this season. particularly recently, havent utd only won 2 of the last 7 or something?

 

2) I disagree with you on english talent - I think we really are lacking when it comes to talented youth prospects. The academies in spain churn out far far far more star quality than we do and generally give them far more opportunities (barca being an example). How many english players right now would you say will be world class in 5 years? I'd say maybe Alli and Stones - but I certainly wouldn't pick anyone else (youre a utd fan so youll likely say rashford - but hes yet to prove himself in a consistent run of games which i dont think hell ever get at utd atm).

 

3) dont misquote me, my exact words were "hes the best midfielder in the prem on current form" - which he was at the time (not that id drop him for any other midfielder in the prem atm to be fair...maybe kante i guess...)

 

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Aaron    1983

No i understand that herrera is a good player.  But his importance and influence is no where near that of Lallana's this season.  I watch United, I've watched herrera. My issue isn't with you saying he's not a decent or good player for utd.

 

Watching someone or a national team versus at club level weekly is COMPLETELY different. So many players fail and flop at international level. Using it as a form of measuring a players ability is retarded but you sound really dumb so I'm going to assume you are. 

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Aaron    1983
19 hours ago, Fruits Punch Samurai G said:

Talent is not really the issue for England because we do have plenty of it and even now I think we have quite a lot of talented players. Problem has always been the FA appointing the wrong manager or a manager that picks a team based on rep. 

 

 

I think in the PAST you are definitely right. 

 

A world class manager handling gerrard, lampard, beckham, prime joe cole, prime rooney, rio, terry, a. cole, etc. should have attained A LOT more. Even then, compare them to their brazillian counterparts and theres still a huge gulf in class. 

 

However I think the current batch of players are really no where near that standard. Sterling & Alli will probably surpass or equal that bunch of excellent players but everyone else seems to be digressing or side stepping (e.g. Barkley). England have two main issues for me:

 

1. Physical nature of the game from grass roots level going all the way to the premier league

2. The lack of a winter break

 

I think as long as the FA are strict on those two things, theres no way an england team will succeed at a tournament. The league's physicality and the referees leniency with certain challenges makes for much more exciting football but limits the technical ability the league requires. When superior technique comes up against superior physicality, technique internationally has been seen to triumph. 

 

 

 

But I do agree, the managers they pick are AWFUL. lol hodgson, lol allardyce, lol gareth southgate, lol mclaren. These are managers who would stand no chance of managing a top level club. The only decent appointment they made was capello but he would have only made sense if he actually spoke english. 

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Aaron    1983
On 11/4/2016 at 1:40 AM, Urthor said:

Dellis Alli is not that much of a prospect.  He's a potential quality international footballerl but there's plenty of players like him in the Barcelona academy.  Only issue is that he is the only prospect in a country that has a fraction of the international talent it had 10 years ago.  

 

 

Every year he can avoid being picked as an England international will be better for him. 

 

 

how many youngsters in barcelona's academy  can play 28(5) games in the premier league and score 10 goals, 9 assists and steer their side to a title tilt until the last few weeks? 

 

if barca do have plenty of those in their academy, surely every english club should be trying to grab a couple on loan?? 

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Faint    5720
54 minutes ago, Aaron said:

 

 

I think in the PAST you are definitely right. 

 

A world class manager handling gerrard, lampard, beckham, prime joe cole, prime rooney, rio, terry, a. cole, etc. should have attained A LOT more. Even then, compare them to their brazillian counterparts and theres still a huge gulf in class. 

 

However I think the current batch of players are really no where near that standard. Sterling & Alli will probably surpass or equal that bunch of excellent players but everyone else seems to be digressing or side stepping (e.g. Barkley). England have two main issues for me:

 

1. Physical nature of the game from grass roots level going all the way to the premier league

2. The lack of a winter break

 

I think as long as the FA are strict on those two things, theres no way an england team will succeed at a tournament. The league's physicality and the referees leniency with certain challenges makes for much more exciting football but limits the technical ability the league requires. When superior technique comes up against superior physicality, technique internationally has been seen to triumph. 

 

 

 

But I do agree, the managers they pick are AWFUL. lol hodgson, lol allardyce, lol gareth southgate, lol mclaren. These are managers who would stand no chance of managing a top level club. The only decent appointment they made was capello but he would have only made sense if he actually spoke english. 

interesting that you think prime joe cole could be mentioned in the same breath as any of those other players mentioned

 

englands "golden generation" imo were gerrard lampard scholes owen rooney (younger...) beckham ferdinand acole neville. one thing we really missed were decent wingers (who remembers daris vassel? lol)

 

us not getting further in the 2002 world cup in particular was frustrating, but we were leaps and bounds behind the germany/brazil/italy teams at the time who were all also going through a similar golden age

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Aaron    1983

prime cole was quite excellent imo.  obv not up to par with the rest of them but injuries really ruined him. 

 

i wouldn't say leaps and bounds player quality wise. defence and centre midfield were as good as anyone and thats where the manager failed to make it work. 

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/chelseafc/comments/44tgdu/would_you_rather_a_prime_hazard_or_a_prime_joe/

 

just incase ur judging cole from his lpool days.  the fact he's even compared to prime hazard is illustrative of how good he was before injuries wrecked him. not saying he's world class.. cos he didn't do it for anywhere near long enough but when he was at his best, he was at england's disposal. 

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8 hours ago, Aaron said:

 

 

I think in the PAST you are definitely right. 

 

A world class manager handling gerrard, lampard, beckham, prime joe cole, prime rooney, rio, terry, a. cole, etc. should have attained A LOT more. Even then, compare them to their brazillian counterparts and theres still a huge gulf in class. 

 

However I think the current batch of players are really no where near that standard. Sterling & Alli will probably surpass or equal that bunch of excellent players but everyone else seems to be digressing or side stepping (e.g. Barkley). England have two main issues for me:

 

1. Physical nature of the game from grass roots level going all the way to the premier league

2. The lack of a winter break

 

I think as long as the FA are strict on those two things, theres no way an england team will succeed at a tournament. The league's physicality and the referees leniency with certain challenges makes for much more exciting football but limits the technical ability the league requires. When superior technique comes up against superior physicality, technique internationally has been seen to triumph. 

 

 

 

But I do agree, the managers they pick are AWFUL. lol hodgson, lol allardyce, lol gareth southgate, lol mclaren. These are managers who would stand no chance of managing a top level club. The only decent appointment they made was capello but he would have only made sense if he actually spoke english. 

Nah I still think England have the necessary talent to succeed. Look at Wales for example. They have imo only one world class player in Bale and Ramsey is the closest thing towards it. A potential England line up could be: Butland, Walker, Stones, Keane, Shaw, Dier, Ox (really do hope he starts to show his potential), Ali, Sterling, Kane and Rashford. All of these players apart from Walker are 23 or younger so the talent is there (obviously not as much as the golden generation but its a golden generation for a reason :L)

 

I still think the main issue with England is the higher ups. The FA have no clue as to what they are doing and neither do the managers they appoint. I mean what kind of manager would use 2 of the best CM on the wing?

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Aaron    1983

Still think its way way way way way way too weak compared to any top euro/world cup squads.

 

On the international stage Butland, Walker, Stones, Keane, Shaw, Dier, Ox Ali, Sterling, Kane and Rashford all have a lack of experience or have flopped. A few of them are even lacking european experience in the form of champions league football.

 

When you compare it to first XIs such as Germany, France, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, the gulf is too massive. Also take into account that a England have no players who are anywhere near the Bale/Ronaldo/Messi level. Those types of players under the right conditions can transform a team. England sadly are lacking. 

 

 

 

tbh i don't give a fuck about england tho. 

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+Urthor    10239

England are just never ever going to be #1 in the world ever again, parents are telling kids to stop playing football 24/7, gtf inside and study for exams in the modern age.  Plus well video games and the terrible weather means going outside isn't worth compared to Spain, Italy, France.  

 

Spain have 25% unemployment and have had it for a long time, it's a completely different environment.  

 

 

Beyond that, the gulf in class between the Premier League and everything else is a joke almost.  The difference between Tottenham, Sunderland, Leicester and Athletic Bilbao and say, Schalke FC or Bilbao is a hundred million light years

 

And that physicality drags down internationals.  Look how few of the best internationals play in the Premier League, the physicality the even-ness brings burns them out.  

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NB96    806

We look so much better with Carrick in the side it's night and day. Absolutely need to find a replacement for him in time for next season. I'm not sure whos potentially available that plays like him though.

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Faint    5720
13 hours ago, Urthor said:

England are just never ever going to be #1 in the world ever again, parents are telling kids to stop playing football 24/7, gtf inside and study for exams in the modern age.  Plus well video games and the terrible weather means going outside isn't worth compared to Spain, Italy, France.  

 

Spain have 25% unemployment and have had it for a long time, it's a completely different environment.  

 

 

Beyond that, the gulf in class between the Premier League and everything else is a joke almost.  The difference between Tottenham, Sunderland, Leicester and Athletic Bilbao and say, Schalke FC or Bilbao is a hundred million light years

 

And that physicality drags down internationals.  Look how few of the best internationals play in the Premier League, the physicality the even-ness brings burns them out.  

 

If you look at the top 10 teams in any league in the world, the premier league is by far and away the strongest.

 

If you look outside the t4 in most countries the other teams are rubbish (real and barca regularly win by 7 or 8, that just wouldnt ever happen in the epl even if a team had the quality that real and barca did)

 

Liverpool and chelsea, damnnn

 

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Aaron    1983
41 minutes ago, Faint said:

 

If you look at the top 10 teams in any league in the world, the premier league is by far and away the strongest.

 

If you look outside the t4 in most countries the other teams are rubbish (real and barca regularly win by 7 or 8, that just wouldnt ever happen in the epl even if a team had the quality that real and barca did)

 

Liverpool and chelsea, damnnn

 

 

I think you're really underestimating other leagues and overestimating the premier league. The upsets we see between the bottom 15 and the top 5 are a mixture of the game being far more physical and the gap being smaller due to our better teams being worse than in the past The premier league from a quality  standpoint.... the top 6 teams are very close unlike other leagues which all seem to have a big 2-3 teams. Is that highlighting that have 6 excellent teams or that we're lacking world class powerhouses in our league?  

 

It's definitely a more exciting league to watch at present due to tight title races and for the top 4.. but not the strongest "far and away". 

 

I don't think for example if you drop Everton, Burnley, Watford or Southampton (currently other 4/10) they're going to automatically top 10 Serie A, the Bundesliga or La Liga. On the contrary I could see a few of the more physical sides aka your Stroke's becoming hugely irrelevant in a better/differently style referred league like La Liga. 

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Aaron    1983
1 hour ago, NB96 said:

We look so much better with Carrick in the side it's night and day. Absolutely need to find a replacement for him in time for next season. I'm not sure whos potentially available that plays like him though.

 

Verrati should have been who you spunked 90M on. 

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NB96    806
13 minutes ago, Aaron said:

 

Verrati should have been who you spunked 90M on. 

He's impossible to buy though. Not even Real Madrid or Barcelona can get him because their owner refuses. They see him as a symbol for the club.

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Aaron    1983
Just now, NB96 said:

He's impossible to buy though. Not even Real Madrid or Barcelona can get him because their owner refuses. They see him as a symbol for the club.

 

 

I think 90M would open up a discussion. 

 

Real Madrid and Barca don't want to spend 90M on him. This isn't Football Manager, for the right money, even PSG will sell and United have access to any players with their bank rolls. 

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NB96    806
20 minutes ago, Aaron said:

 

 

I think 90M would open up a discussion. 

 

Real Madrid and Barca don't want to spend 90M on him. This isn't Football Manager, for the right money, even PSG will sell and United have access to any players with their bank rolls. 

I disagree for 90m. If we bid that PSG would bid for De Gea 50m just to send a message. Likewise I think if Barca or Madrid come calling they bid for Neymar or Bale.

 

I think €130m minimum to have a chance, which is astronomical and dwarves even our Pogba fee but you look at how wealthy PSG as and it makes sense to me. Not to mention he signed a new contract before the transfer window opened until 2021 I think.

 

It's a pity because Veratti is exactly what we need but then again he walks into any team in the world imo. The only flaw is maybe his size and physique is too small for PL but even then I don't think any club would hesitate given the opportunity to get him.

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Aaron    1983
6 minutes ago, NB96 said:

I disagree for 90m. If we bid that PSG would bid for De Gea 50m just to send a message. Likewise I think if Barca or Madrid come calling they bid for Neymar or Bale.

 

I think €130m minimum to have a chance, which is astronomical and dwarves even our Pogba fee but you look at how wealthy PSG as and it makes sense to me. Not to mention he signed a new contract before the transfer window opened until 2021 I think.

 

It's a pity because Veratti is exactly what we need but then again he walks into any team in the world imo. The only flaw is maybe his size and physique is too small for PL but even then I don't think any club would hesitate given the opportunity to get him.

 

 

How many games did Verrati play last season for PSG in the league? 

 

I think you're overrating him a tad tbh just like how United fan's elevated Pogba to god like standards prior to his move. 

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NB96    806
30 minutes ago, Aaron said:

 

 

How many games did Verrati play last season for PSG in the league? 

 

I think you're overrating him a tad tbh just like how United fan's elevated Pogba to god like standards prior to his move. 

I know he didn't get many games through injury last season (I'm looking at a site that says 18 games all season which would be concerning) but I don't think I'm overrating him. He controls the game based on what I've seen from CL football, gets his hands dirty with tackles and is very tough to dispossess. I think Mdoric and Iniesta are better but they are both getting on now. Maybe Kroos but idk.

 

To be fair PSG are very dominant in their league but I still think he's world class.

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Aaron    1983
22 minutes ago, NB96 said:

I know he didn't get many games through injury last season (I'm looking at a site that says 18 games all season which would be concerning) but I don't think I'm overrating him. He controls the game based on what I've seen from CL football, gets his hands dirty with tackles and is very tough to dispossess. I think Mdoric and Iniesta are better but they are both getting on now. Maybe Kroos but idk.

 

To be fair PSG are very dominant in their league but I still think he's world class.

 

I think you're still overrating him a fair bit given how little you've seen of him.

 

Definitely a world class prospect but to say PSG would reject bids of 90M upwards flat out is a bit much. Its mores the fact that I really doubt clubs are willing to part with that much money for such a young relatively unproven player who has a poor injury record and ultimately won't win you a title. 

 

If its a question of spending 100m+ on a player such as Neymar, clubs wouldn't blink. 

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20 hours ago, Aaron said:

Still think its way way way way way way too weak compared to any top euro/world cup squads.

 

On the international stage Butland, Walker, Stones, Keane, Shaw, Dier, Ox Ali, Sterling, Kane and Rashford all have a lack of experience or have flopped. A few of them are even lacking european experience in the form of champions league football.

 

When you compare it to first XIs such as Germany, France, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, the gulf is too massive. Also take into account that a England have no players who are anywhere near the Bale/Ronaldo/Messi level. Those types of players under the right conditions can transform a team. England sadly are lacking. 

 

 

 

tbh i don't give a fuck about england tho. 

Wouldn't say the gulf between England's talent and the other top countries talent is that much tbh apart from Spain, Germany and France. Italy don't have many players that are in their mid 20s that can be called good or world class. Most of their talent are just like England, lacking European experience in the champions league but the only difference is they have players like Buffon, Cheilini, De Rossi etc that are massive staples. Brazil are a real shadow of what they were in the past and looking at the most recent team they called up, its probably one of the worst Brazilian squads I have ever seen. I'm seeing players based in China (Paulinho and Augusto etc) while also Brazil based players who haven't had any caps but in their late 20s. Again England's crop look more promising as a whole. Argentina are too attacking based and it would be interesting to see what they would be like after Mascherano retires and its crazy how they still have Romero as first choice. Idek why you mentioned Uruguay as I can only think of Suarez, Cavani (who is not as good as he used to be at Napoli), Godin and Gimenez as the only class players.

 

As for Verratti, I value him at £40m

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Faint    5720

^you've clearly never seen veratti play, he's at least as good as pogba.

 

Kind of agree with you on a lot of what you said about international squads though.

 

someone who I really really like in Germany is Sule - would love love love liverpool to buy either him or Tah. both imho better than giminez. I think in terms of youth germany have so so so many potential world class players its unreal lol

 

how about all the action today then? liverpool top and looked fucking great. our front 3 is great - firminho is the best of the 3 imo but they all do something so different and work so well together. henderson great again, and Can really enjoying the box to box role it seems (lallana again fucking amazing-2 assists).

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Azzaw    64

England always get a batch of good promising players but they always tend to fizzle out (unlike in other countries where they tend to develop or be more consistent). It might be because the premier league isn't really catering when it comes to developing young players, the only player I can think of that truly developed to be a world class player and stay there is just CR7. Then you also get anomalies like Scholes who refuse to play internationally and players like Carrick who get really underappreciated. While I do love the premier league since its always unexpecting, I do have to agree with the sentiment that it hasn't been the "best" league for the past couple of years, and  

 

Arsenal once again being moody in their performance, werent creative and making the most of their chances upfront. Koscielny was pretty off today as well. I guess I Tottenham played ok but its a game that shouldve been won

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Aaron    1983
8 hours ago, Fruits Punch Samurai G said:

Wouldn't say the gulf between England's talent and the other top countries talent is that much tbh apart from Spain, Germany and France. Italy don't have many players that are in their mid 20s that can be called good or world class. Most of their talent are just like England, lacking European experience in the champions league but the only difference is they have players like Buffon, Cheilini, De Rossi etc that are massive staples. Brazil are a real shadow of what they were in the past and looking at the most recent team they called up, its probably one of the worst Brazilian squads I have ever seen. I'm seeing players based in China (Paulinho and Augusto etc) while also Brazil based players who haven't had any caps but in their late 20s. Again England's crop look more promising as a whole. Argentina are too attacking based and it would be interesting to see what they would be like after Mascherano retires and its crazy how they still have Romero as first choice. Idek why you mentioned Uruguay as I can only think of Suarez, Cavani (who is not as good as he used to be at Napoli), Godin and Gimenez as the only class players.

 

As for Verratti, I value him at £40m

 

 

Brazil can throw out a front 3 of neymar/coutinho/firmino. instantly outclasses anything england can put out. they can have a backline of alves/thiago silva/david luiz/marcelo just like that. 

Italy are just tactically way way way ahead of England. they have a national identify and play style, something england has never really had in my lifetime. 

argentina.. yeah too attacking.. god if only they had the best player in the world in their side. how they haven't won anything with higuain/aguero/messi/di maria is sad. 

 

ya as i said with wales, when you have one of the best players in the world, you can pretty much win anything in a tournament with a lot of luck and average to good players. england don't have a best player in the world (ronaldo/bale/suarez/neymar/messi). thats why i mentioned urguay. also i just love that they probably have the best footballing quality per km of country/population. 

 

 

 

England literally have no players who compete on that level. All they have is potential and anyone who has watched football for the past 20 years will know english talent can rot very quickly... michael johnson, aaron lennon, theo walcott, micah richards (until this season), etc. Their best bet is doing what Germany did and playing and bringing through a really young team with a solid footballing philosophy but its england and they won't drop rooney. 

 

england could be nice underdogs but their player selection will always hurt them. look at lallana and hendo @ lpool under a good manager. 

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