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How to Side in Goat Format

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+ACP+    34070

What do you guys think about D.D. Trainer vs Zoo? It's a dark LV1 monster with 2000 defense. Broken!

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Anteaus44    13
7 hours ago, Ynusgridorh said:

Not sure why it hasn't been mention yet but Royal Decree is a very good side deck card against Beastdown. It's incredibly hard for them to out TER, Tsuk and BLS without using their traps whereas you can easily stop their onslaught with Scapegoat and Spy.

I feel like Decree can help against Beastdown if you opt to side in more aggro-oriented cards like Jazz suggests. It's harder for Zoo or Beastdown to out Tsuk than TER and BLS, though, notably because of cards like Abyss Soldier, Judgment, Tribe and Exiled that are often seen in the main of many standard Zoo and Beastdown builds. Those can't hit Tsuk. So I can also see Mustang's point of view in saying passive, Tsuk-based control can also be an effective counter.

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Ynusgridorh    129
43 minutes ago, Mustang said:

@Ynusgridorh Royal Decree is terrible against beastdown. You don't understand the matchup. Play more. Speak less.

You might as well tell these two guys Decree sucks against Beastdown. Clearly, they don't understand how the deck works either. How can Decree be possibly good against a deck that plays 12 traps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atsoj2QXOak&t=2m21s

http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?/topic/162856-fuck-goats-get-paid/

 

Your spells are better than their spells, your best monsters (TER, Tsuk, BLS) are better than their best monsters. Take away their traps and they only have one leg left to stand on. Side in more non-trap protection (Spy, Scapegoat) and they won't be able to do much to you.

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Anteaus44    13

Another reason I like Zaborg in the side is for GK Spy. In one of those links it was mentioned that people side out NoC against Beastdown, which is why they like to side in Guard/Spy. Zaborg can provide you outs to those and cover bases if you're siding out NoC for games 2 and 3.

 

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Mustang    15
1 hour ago, Ynusgridorh said:

You might as well tell these two guys Decree sucks against Beastdown. Clearly, they don't understand how the deck works either. How can Decree be possibly good against a deck that plays 12 traps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atsoj2QXOak&t=2m21s

http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?/topic/162856-fuck-goats-get-paid/

 

Your spells are better than their spells, your best monsters (TER, Tsuk, BLS) are better than their best monsters. Take away their traps and they only have one leg left to stand on. Side in more non-trap protection (Spy, Scapegoat) and they won't be able to do much to you.

 

@Ynusgridorh Wrong. You've barely skimmed the surface. And that line of thinking is completely absurd. You still don't understand the early-game, mid-game, and late-game of the matchup. 

 

Beasts throw 1 monster down each turn. To win, you need to answer their beater ASAP, preferably before their first attack goes through. They out-advantage you through battle. If you want to destroy their skill drains, dust tornado is better than decree. I told you, you need your trap protection. 

 

Royal Decree is a terrible card to side in to a goat control deck vs beastdown. Every turn that their beater stays on the field, that's another attack and another -1 to you: that is their strategy. Each Scapegoat token is only a shield for 1 attack. You need your destruction traps to out-tempo them and remain ahead of the summon. 

 

You are all dilly dallying around in this thread hypothesizing and speculating on sub-par cards that you think are good vs the beastdown matchup. I have literally broken down every component of the matchup for you, proven through trial and error, and shown you the strategy on how to beat beastdown consistently using goat control. And then you get frustrated and retort that I talk too much LMAO 

 

I can see why you're red, Mr. -52. Stop spewing about, trying to teach others how to run when you can barely crawl. 

 

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+mmf    23269

only reason ur rep aint lower than his is cus u have 18 posts lol

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17 minutes ago, Mustang said:

 

@Ynusgridorh Wrong. You've barely skimmed the surface. And that line of thinking is completely absurd. You still don't understand the early-game, mid-game, and late-game of the matchup. 

 

Beasts throw 1 monster down each turn. To win, you need to answer their beater ASAP, preferably before their first attack goes through. They out-advantage you through battle. If you want to destroy their skill drains, dust tornado is better than decree. I told you, you need your trap protection. 

 

Royal Decree is a terrible card to side in to a goat control deck vs beastdown. Every turn that their beater stays on the field, that's another attack and another -1 to you: that is their strategy. Each Scapegoat token is only a shield for 1 attack. You need your destruction traps to out-tempo them and remain ahead of the summon. 

 

You are all dilly dallying around in this thread hypothesizing and speculating on sub-par cards that you think are good vs the beastdown matchup. I have literally broken down every component of the matchup for you, proven through trial and error, and shown you the strategy on how to beat beastdown consistently using goat control. And then you get frustrated and retort that I talk too much LMAO 

 

I can see why you're red, Mr. -52. Stop spewing about, trying to teach others how to run when you can barely crawl. 

 

Neg'd in part because you're wrong, but mostly because your font is unreadable on the default skin.

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Anteaus44    13
9 minutes ago, Mustang said:

 

@Ynusgridorh Wrong. You've barely skimmed the surface. And that line of thinking is completely absurd. You still don't understand the early-game, mid-game, and late-game of the matchup. 

 

Beasts throw 1 monster down each turn. To win, you need to answer their beater ASAP, preferably before their first attack goes through. They out-advantage you through battle. If you want to destroy their skill drains, dust tornado is better than decree. I told you, you need your trap protection. 

 

Royal Decree is a terrible card to side in to a goat control deck vs beastdown. Every turn that their beater stays on the field, that's another attack and another -1 to you: that is their strategy. Each Scapegoat token is only a shield for 1 attack. You need your destruction traps to out-tempo them and remain ahead of the summon. 

 

You are all dilly dallying around in this thread hypothesizing and speculating on sub-par cards that you think are good vs the beastdown matchup. I have literally broken down every component of the matchup for you, proven through trial and error, and shown you the strategy on how to beat beastdown consistently using goat control. And then you get frustrated and retort that I talk too much LMAO 

 

I can see why you're red, Mr. -52. Stop spewing about, trying to teach others how to run when you can barely crawl. 

 

1) Stop being so disparaging. Those kinds of attacks really aren't necessary here. Negged for that reason mainly. It undermines quality discussion if we resort to personal attacks I feel.

 

You're right that Beasts throw 1 monster down each turn. But just answering their beater ASAP isn't always useful because if they toss down a Sakuretsu Armor and stop you from killing one of their monsters you're immediately behind the summon. This is a bad place to be in against Beastdown or any aggressive deck in general. Royal Decree stops that Sak from going off in the first place. And against a deck that plays 12 traps game one, Decree is going to be absolutely brutal. I would even say maining a copy or two in a meta known for aggressive players might pay off - it's happened in the past. Not saying it's generally a good idea to just main Decree, but in the right meta it's an option.

 

At the end of the day though getting ahead of the summon and shutting down the deck's only true form of defense is going to win more games against DFT. Tsuk lock and stall is all well and good in theory, but in practice they're just going to blow through those cards and create big boards and win. In my personal testing I win more matches against modern Zoo/Beastdown

by siding in Decree than omitting it. 

 

That's not to say that playing passive in some cases isn't good. It can be. But Decree is a good side against the deck regardless of the strategy. Shutting off their main defense - they don't play Scapegoat or Meta, you know - is almost always going to win games against it.

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Anteaus44    13
3 hours ago, ACP said:

What do you guys think about D.D. Trainer vs Zoo? It's a dark LV1 monster with 2000 defense. Broken!

Also this is absolutely hilarious. Why did no one ever think of this?

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Mustang    15

Regardless, of negs, the popular opinion may not the be the right one. 

 

Everything I've said holds truth. I gave you detailed arguements, ones that were not previously considered, and they were up for discussion. True, I went ad hominem on his ad hominem and I deserve some minor flak. However none of you have actually provided any good cards or counter arguements to the strategies I have provided, nor offered any good countersides with explanations on how the cards nor the strategy would be superior to mine. 

 

Whatever, I don't spend much time on DGZ anyways, not one to armchair strategize with other armchair strategists. I prefer actually utilizing my time playing Goat Control in goat format and perfecting my playstyle to complement my strategy; it generates wins against all types of opponents. I was merely sharing my findings with you. The best thoughts aren't necessarily the most popular ones. 

 

Side Decree, Gorillas, Dekoichis, whatever else you would like to side, I don't care much for you. Everyone plays goat format differently, not everyone chooses to play Goat Control. You can choose to alter your deck in to a lower ceiling one, and lock one of your cards to negate all traps on the field and proceed to respond to zoo's beaters with your beaters. But don't tote yourself as some goat control expert with this strategy. Who knows (I know), you may even win some games. The better option still isn't the best option. But, do as you wish.

 

I came in here giving you valid arguments with in depth strategy. I've spoken what's on my mind and you have left me with nothing to respond to. You've proceeded to bashing text length, font colours, and who knows what else you lot will pull out in the future. I am choosing not to converse with you further. 

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+mmf    23269

he linked an entire tournament report from the best zoo player talking about the impact of decree

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Jazz    4764

Mustang, while I mostly agree with you on Decree, you're being hypocritical. All you've done is dismiss my strategy out of hand, provided anecdotal example hands, made an abstract analogy about kingdoms at war, and boiled down the aggro matchup to an oversimplified, idealistic scenario where you always fight off beaters and always get your Tsuku locks. It just doesn't happen like that in reality. It's as if you don't believe I've tested your method and my method, when I've told you I have. When I've explained the merits of my method and you haven't even considered them in your response. Not saying your method doesn't work, just saying in my personal experience, I don't find it as consistent as mine, for my liking. Try my method for yourself when you get a chance. I'd love to hear your thoughts then.

 

The amount of knee-jerk rejection in this thread is obnoxious. It reflects poorly on this forum as a whole. I've said more than once there are multiple ways to side successfully in this format, and it's a largely unsolved, open debate. Let's try to keep that in mind.

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Anteaus44    13
42 minutes ago, Mustang said:

Regardless, of negs, the popular opinion may not the be the right one. 

 

Everything I've said holds truth. I gave you detailed arguements, ones that were not previously considered, and they were up for discussion. True, I went ad hominem on his ad hominem and I deserve some minor flak. However none of you have actually provided any good cards or counter arguements to the strategies I have provided, nor offered any good countersides with explanations on how the cards nor the strategy would be superior to mine. 

 

Whatever, I don't spend much time on DGZ anyways, not one to armchair strategize with other armchair strategists. I prefer actually utilizing my time playing Goat Control in goat format and perfecting my playstyle to complement my strategy; it generates wins against all types of opponents. I was merely sharing my findings with you. The best thoughts aren't necessarily the most popular ones. 

 

Side Decree, Gorillas, Dekoichis, whatever else you would like to side, I don't care much for you. Everyone plays goat format differently, not everyone chooses to play Goat Control. You can choose to alter your deck in to a lower ceiling one, and lock one of your cards to negate all traps on the field and proceed respond to zoo's beaters with your beaters. Who knows (I know), you may even win some games. The better option still isn't the best option. But, do as you wish.

 

I came in here giving you valid arguments with in depth strategy. I've spoken what's on my mind and you have left me with nothing to respond to. You've proceeded to bashing text length, font colours, and who knows what else you lot will pull out in the future. I am choosing not to converse with you further. 

Well, I did address your points in my last response to you. You have some valid ones notably the fact that walling up against Beastdown might be an effective strategy. You go on to talk about how Beastdown doesn't generate any advantage other than through battle. This is mostly true, but they mitigate that through their traps notably Sakuretsu Armor and Solemn Judgment. You also have to take into account the fact that the deck often plays triple Dustshoot. This can put the goat player at a disadvantage especially if they open without much S/T removal.

 

Spy is good but if it gets NoC'd there goes like half your side strategy. I personally feel that if you can make their only way of generating advantage (battle, as you say) disadvantageous and you shut off their defense you can easily out-aggro them. Stalling with Spy until you get there is a viable strategy, possibly, though I think it depends mainly on who is playing the deck. Because they will side too.

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On 8/19/2016 at 10:28 AM, Jazz said:

 

Smashing Ground - For Zoo. A solid removal card that could clear out Abyss Soldiers and Exarion Universes reliably. It also sets up Magician of Faith for some early game usage in a pinch. Ultimately it is good but not great, and only works well in one matchup.

 


For shits and gigs I had a friend run a deck against me with 3x Smashing in the main and we found the text to read "destroy target Thousand-Eyes Restrict" more often than not. Did you ever end up siding it in during a Goat mirror in testing? Most of "the machine" in Goats is impervious to it [Tsuky+MoF/Merchant/Deko] but I could not keep a TER on the field to save my life, literally.

Along the line of thinking "is Perovic's deck still relevant": consider that the tournament in which it dominated, matches were best of five rather than best of three. Higher variance shit will be more rewarding in a best of three environment, which is most dueling/testing now, and you would probably see more decks like that in a given future event. It would take another "x of 5" tournament with the expectation of another "x of 5" tournament in the relatively near future to shift a hypothetical meta towards the arena in which that deck became the boss and sideboard skills are king. You were there and I wasn't so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that regarding how the stuff we see now evolved.

As for what's different since 2014, I started playing Goats earlier this year and I'm maining more aggressive cards (Abyss x2 and Mobius); I think most Goat players try like hell to run Exarion x3, and I wonder often why I'm running two copies of Scapegoat. 

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Jazz    4764
9 hours ago, Human Tetherball said:


For shits and gigs I had a friend run a deck against me with 3x Smashing in the main and we found the text to read "destroy target Thousand-Eyes Restrict" more often than not. Did you ever end up siding it in during a Goat mirror in testing? Most of "the machine" in Goats is impervious to it [Tsuky+MoF/Merchant/Deko] but I could not keep a TER on the field to save my life, literally.

Along the line of thinking "is Perovic's deck still relevant": consider that the tournament in which it dominated, matches were best of five rather than best of three. Higher variance shit will be more rewarding in a best of three environment, which is most dueling/testing now, and you would probably see more decks like that in a given future event. It would take another "x of 5" tournament with the expectation of another "x of 5" tournament in the relatively near future to shift a hypothetical meta towards the arena in which that deck became the boss and sideboard skills are king. You were there and I wasn't so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that regarding how the stuff we see now evolved.

As for what's different since 2014, I started playing Goats earlier this year and I'm maining more aggressive cards (Abyss x2 and Mobius); I think most Goat players try like hell to run Exarion x3, and I wonder often why I'm running two copies of Scapegoat. 

 

Sure, you can clear TER with Smashing, but you can also do so with Sakuretsu, MF, Torrential, Ring. Whenever you use any singular piece of removal to clear TER, you've already lost the war, because that TER has typically paid for itself by eating one of your monsters. I prefer to clear TERs for free, using either Book/Ring to stymie it on summon, Tsukuyomi to flip it down, Sorcerer to banish (if I'm playing Sorcerer), or TER to nab it. I've never sided Smashing against Goat decks because I know I wouldn't get any use out of it given that I'm trying to win the advantage game, and Smashing is an obligatory 1-for-1 at best that fails to preserve your LP unlike the battle traps mentioned above.

 

Yes, I think you're correct that one reason Perovic dominated was the best of 5 matches, but I think Perovic would have done just as well in a best of 3 setting. We could look at the game logs, but rarely if ever did anyone lose a best of 3 then win 2 in a row to take the best of 5 (that's why I now think best of 5 is a waste of time in swiss/early rounds). In my view there are two main factors that determined why Goat dominated that tournament: (1) the overwhelming majority of participants in the tournament played Goat, (2) alternate decks were largely under-developed and non-competitive. As a community, we literally did not have a modern build of Chaos (late 2014). Nor did we have a modern build of Dimension Fusion Turbo (mid 2015). The Zoo deck was in its infancy, lacked a couple key innovations, and also had not been shared with the public. Finally nobody committed to playing a strong Burn variant or any of the OTKs.

 

Multiple copies of Scapegoat as a main is highly debatable, but overall I believe it's necessary to main 2 copies. After I lost the finals to Kris, who was the first person to popularize 2 Airknight + 2 Exarion, I had the thought that part of the reason I lost was that I could rarely use Scapegoat to protect my lifepoints, which had been a key aspect of playing Goat Format for ages. So I experimented with 1 copy of Scapegoat, and that led me to trying out 1 copy of Dark Mimic LV1. However, I learned that Scapegoat gives you a lot of flexibility and 2 copies serves an important role in the deck. First of all, it's nearly essential against non-Goat mirrors to stabilize the early game so you can set up your power plays. Second, it's one of the best ways to respond to Book of Moon on your TER. Since Scapegoat lets you use Metamorphosis without a normal summon, you can follow a Book of Moon on your TER with a tribute summon of Airknight Parshath, which is an absolutely great play. Third, having that second copy of Scapegoat as a 'late game threat' frequently saves your ass and makes your opponent hesitate before going for the kill shot.

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Thanks for the thorough reply, Jazz. Keeping 2nd Scapegoat in the main as a result.

I got linked this article earlier, which I think applies double to YGO due to the greater likelihood of seeing any given card: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/7-keys-to-sideboarding-like-a-pro/

1) ...be careful to board against their sideboard, not their main deck.

I thought this^ was especially relevant. Obviously you still need slots to hard-counter some matchups but this will be really handy once tournaments start up again and sideboards become more predictable. This seems like it's old news to you all but it might be helpful for Goat newbies who are familiar with Magic.

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@Human Tetherball I'm re-trying Smashing Ground vs. Zoo. I find that being a Spell Card makes it really good. Unlike monsters, it won't be spun away by Dustshoot and unlike Traps, it's not super slow and has to be set first.

Furthermore, unlike Bottomless, it's good when your opponent already has a board. Also unlike Bottomless, you can grab it off of Merchant and use it immediately or recycle it off of Faith.

To summarize, it basically does the same thing NoC is supposed to do in the Goat mirror, which is essentially eliminating their Normal Summon. It's still only good in 1 matchup, but TBH I think Zoo is popular enough to have specific counters for, so I think it's worth revisiting.

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+mark    3105

I'm pretty sure the role of NoC is stopping Faith plays and somewhat Tsuk locks, not blocking their normal summon - that's a bonus 

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Jazz    4764
19 minutes ago, mark said:

I'm pretty sure the role of NoC is stopping Faith plays and somewhat Tsuk locks, not blocking their normal summon - that's a bonus 

 

Obviously NoC and Smashing have different effects, but he's talking about the function of cards fitting into broad "roles", like Spell-based removal, giving the goat deck a balanced set of options for different game situations. There's merit to the concept, but I still don't think Smashing Ground is all that good.

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+mark    3105
26 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

Obviously NoC and Smashing have different effects, but he's talking about the function of cards fitting into broad "roles", like Spell-based removal, giving the goat deck a balanced set of options for different game situations. There's merit to the concept, but I still don't think Smashing Ground is all that good.

Alright, I can understand that. That said though, I would make a distinguish between stopping threats that are already a threat, and stopping ways to get advantage or to 'get thing rolling'. The first category would be stopping cards such as airknight/BLS/TER/exarion, while the second category would consist of facedowns such as magician of faith/morphing jar, but also Tsuk locks. To compare smashing ground to NoC is to compare a mid/late-game card to a early game card. I mean of course you can use smashing ground T1 and your opponent won't always set a monster, but are you really getting value out of smashing their exarion or whatever monster they have? Basically what I'm saying is I'd rather compare Smashing Ground to cards such as Book of Moon, Chaos Sorcerer, besides the traps you already named, because they basically achieve the same thing. Within this train of though, I'd put NoC in the same category of cards as Trap Dusthoot, because (when resolved) they somewhat do the same thing. I also think it's interesting that Exiled Force, at the cost of your normal summon, can basically deal with anything including face-downs, so that should be taken into consideration as well, although the same could be said for TER itself. 

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Ynusgridorh    129
14 hours ago, TheAntiAntimetaAzn said:

@Human Tetherball I'm re-trying Smashing Ground vs. Zoo. I find that being a Spell Card makes it really good. Unlike monsters, it won't be spun away by Dustshoot and unlike Traps, it's not super slow and has to be set first.

Furthermore, unlike Bottomless, it's good when your opponent already has a board. Also unlike Bottomless, you can grab it off of Merchant and use it immediately or recycle it off of Faith.

To summarize, it basically does the same thing NoC is supposed to do in the Goat mirror, which is essentially eliminating their Normal Summon. It's still only good in 1 matchup, but TBH I think Zoo is popular enough to have specific counters for, so I think it's worth revisiting.

 

I've always sided Smashing Ground in Beastdown for the mirror matchup but I think Goat Control has better ways to deal with the deck than just trading 1 for 1.

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Two things Exiled Force can't do: catch you up on field presence, meritoriously kill facedown Sangan/Serpent.
Other than that I find myself liking it when I run it. It's a great FLIP stopper and TER answer; reusability as a Premature Burial/CotH target is relevant. Like a 3rd, 4th and 5th copy of NoC sometimes.

I think Smashing vs. Zoo makes a lot of sense.

Smashing vs. Goats is suboptimal but: 
Smashing is better against Goats before they side their Exarions out for Dekoichis and all you have in front of you is f/d's. If they make a Balter you won't resolve one again. I don't think it's better than Metamorphosis-into-TER for a Goat deck obvs but if your deck can't Meta or can but needs more steady beatstick removal than TER, the tempo advantage of straight up killing shit on your turn when your opponent can only respond with what they've already committed to the board is really nice and makes direct attacks more doable.

I know it's suboptimal to make one-for-one trades vs. Goats if you are running Goats but the "run them out of monsters" philosophy that applies to Zoo probably applies to Goats too. If you can't stop damage or put out damage you will lose, even if you are +1 or +2.  I can see Smashing as decent enough to not be written off entirely from the sideboard because it only covers one matchup best. I kind of get the sense that I'm making the same argument as people arguing that a deck with Don Zaloogs, IFL and Smashing Grounds is the nuts, so eviscerate as you will.

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15 hours ago, mark said:

Alright, I can understand that. That said though, I would make a distinguish between stopping threats that are already a threat, and stopping ways to get advantage or to 'get thing rolling'. The first category would be stopping cards such as airknight/BLS/TER/exarion, while the second category would consist of facedowns such as magician of faith/morphing jar, but also Tsuk locks. To compare smashing ground to NoC is to compare a mid/late-game card to a early game card. I mean of course you can use smashing ground T1 and your opponent won't always set a monster, but are you really getting value out of smashing their exarion or whatever monster they have? Basically what I'm saying is I'd rather compare Smashing Ground to cards such as Book of Moon, Chaos Sorcerer, besides the traps you already named, because they basically achieve the same thing. Within this train of though, I'd put NoC in the same category of cards as Trap Dusthoot, because (when resolved) they somewhat do the same thing. I also think it's interesting that Exiled Force, at the cost of your normal summon, can basically deal with anything including face-downs, so that should be taken into consideration as well, although the same could be said for TER itself. 

I agree with NoC and Smashing being completely different function-wise, and tbh I should've worded it better to not make it seem like "all NoC does is eliminate Normal Summon."

However, there just really isn't much complexity in the Goat v. Zoo matchup as there is with the Goat mirror. I found that once I sided out Airknights and NoCs Zoo had a hard time winning, so the only thing I felt was necessary was to side in anti-Zoo versions of NoC and Airknight.

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