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YCS Prague 2017

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Mr Dragon    300
3 hours ago, buckwheatloaf said:

they claim it grinds thru the fusion sub combo and one in the top 8 didn't even main maxx c :0 


Their reasoning was that it's actually not a great draw midgame, which is a lot more relevant when you're playing Paleozoic because literally every game you play is drawn out. 

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buckwheatloaf    190

yeah it makes sense. 

 

i use to think trading it with chalice was getting good value from flying c but with fusion sub thats probably not really the case. but i think there is a high chance to open with ogre+ flying c or 2x flying c which can be good together and not a  lot of ppl talk about that. like 2 d.d crow will not really do more than 1 d.d crow, but 2 flying c will for sure stop them. or gosr to protect it from barrage. they have more syngergy together and its a pretty significant chance to have flying c +flying/gosr in the first 5 when ur using 3 of each.

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+mmf    23264

wow so people are really playing flying c just for the games they open with 2 of them? hey guys, maybe when your finals is a rematch from an event that happened less than 3 months ago and you go 4-fucking-3, and then paleo wins your entire event, maybe that's a sign you should reconsider your god awful flying fucking c

 

9 hours ago, buckwheatloaf said:

yeah it makes sense. 

 

i use to think trading it with chalice was getting good value from flying c but with fusion sub thats probably not really the case. but i think there is a high chance to open with ogre+ flying c or 2x flying c which can be good together and not a  lot of ppl talk about that. like 2 d.d crow will not really do more than 1 d.d crow, but 2 flying c will for sure stop them. or gosr to protect it from barrage. they have more syngergy together and its a pretty significant chance to have flying c +flying/gosr in the first 5 when ur using 3 of each.

 

i guess math must be hard for you since you consider it the work of the devil

 

but both of those hands combined, without subtracting the overlap, happen less than opening maxx in 60 cards rofl

 

and remember, the odds of opening maxx in 60 weren't good enough for them to play it

 

2j09RZG.jpg

 

W2ixhVk.jpg

 

 

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+mark    3099
12 hours ago, buckwheatloaf said:

there is a high chance to open with ogre+ flying c or 2x flying c which can be good together and not a  lot of ppl talk about that


Why would people talk about something that isn't true. The real question is how good hand traps are + how much of these 'counters' to it are being played, and what the odds are they'll draw into them. It's even questionable if you should want to draw into that many hand traps, because the moment you draw 2-3 hand traps the rest of your hand needs to be 'good', not to mention you'll auto-lose some matchups as well. But even if it's good, like Frogman pointed out, there is an extremely small chance of drawing into multiples unless if you were to play 15-20 of these hand traps total. 

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+mmf    23264

psa:

 

invoked windwitch was the second most played deck in the event on day 1

 

it was still present on day 2, but dropped below paleo

 

and then

 

not even a single copy made it into the top 32

 

this deck cannot be this bad. you guys have got to be doing something wrong with it. jesus christ

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Chaos_Blaze    72
4 hours ago, mmf said:

psa:

 

invoked windwitch was the second most played deck in the event on day 1

 

it was still present on day 2, but dropped below paleo

 

and then

 

not even a single copy made it into the top 32

 

this deck cannot be this bad. you guys have got to be doing something wrong with it. jesus christ

iirc, there was one in Top 32. I believe it was Windwitch Invoked Kaiju. It might be labeled under 'Other' in that chart.

 

EDIT: Found the deck profile. It's in the spoiler below.

Edited by Chaos_Blaze

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Me.    1348

28th place Samir Bacher was playing invoked kaiju, siding into windwitches (or maybe mained windwitches that weren't drawn, I only know that my friend that played him said they were sided).

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+mmf    23264

We in there

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buckwheatloaf    190
11 hours ago, mmf said:

wow so people are really playing flying c just for the games they open with 2 of them? hey guys, maybe when your finals is a rematch from an event that happened less than 3 months ago and you go 4-fucking-3, and then paleo wins your entire event, maybe that's a sign you should reconsider your god awful flying fucking c

 

 

i guess math must be hard for you since you consider it the work of the devil

 

but both of those hands combined, without subtracting the overlap, happen less than opening maxx in 60 cards rofl

 

and remember, the odds of opening maxx in 60 weren't good enough for them to play it

 

2j09RZG.jpg

 

W2ixhVk.jpg

 

 

 

 

yeah you're looking at this wrong lol.

 

what matters is conditioning on the chance of opening flying c, what percentage do you also have another maxx c or gosr. 

 

i get that 56% of the time when u open with   flying c, you only open with 1 flying c and zeo gosr

 

but 43% of the time when u open with flying c, you open with a additional copy of flying c or gosr. 

 

so 43% of the time you have flying c, you get to protect it from barrage with gosr, or have other copy to overcome the challive or gosr.

 

449632a3e17ae22f62537859e3a6285f.png

 

 

but another reason ppl are saying they are using flying c is its much stronger trap card than d.d. crow going 1st.

 

 

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buckwheatloaf    190
7 hours ago, mark said:


Why would people talk about something that isn't true. The real question is how good hand traps are + how much of these 'counters' to it are being played, and what the odds are they'll draw into them. It's even questionable if you should want to draw into that many hand traps, because the moment you draw 2-3 hand traps the rest of your hand needs to be 'good', not to mention you'll auto-lose some matchups as well. But even if it's good, like Frogman pointed out, there is an extremely small chance of drawing into multiples unless if you were to play 15-20 of these hand traps total. 

 

wow none of you get how to look at percentages >_> 

 

there is no magic hand trap that automatically appears in your hand every time. when you evaluate a hand trap you evaluate its relative strength to another hand trap.  we all know that many times you dont open with any hand traps or you open maxx c, and the other hand traps are irrelevant. the question is when you do open with these additional hand traps, how good are they?

 

so lets compare 3 d.d. crow + 3 gosr to 3 flying c + 3 gosr 

 

we know that 43% of the time you open with a d.d crow or flying c in the first 5, you will ALSO HAVE another copy of d.d. crow or flying c OR a ghost ogre. 

 

my argument is that flying c + flying c and flying c +gosr is much better than d.d. crow + d.d crow or d.d. crow  +gosr.

 

we know that 2 hand traps is better than 1, im just saying that combinations of flying c + flying c/gosr is better than d.d crow + d.d.crow/gosr.

 

since we would be using 3 of this new hand trap and are already using 3 gosr, that seems to be very much in the favor of flying c.

 

 

 

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+mark    3099

you forget the part where D.D. Crow doesn't lose to barrage/chalice, and flying C is the hand trap that requires you to draw 2. obviously if handtrap A and B are equally good except A is better when double drawn, then you'd play 3 of A before B, but this is not the case here at all so your entire comparison is completely off. what you have to wonder is:

 

do I rather draw D.D. Crow or Flying C

 

you're making up situations where you draw gosr + ddcrow/flying c that are completely irrelevant because they assume you draw gosr already which you, most of the time, do not 

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buckwheatloaf    190

the thing is that 43% of the time you draw flying c, you will draw another flying c or ghost ogre. so it does kind of make sense to take that into account. 

 

flying c > d.d. crow  when it works. 

 

and 43% of the time its very likely to work because you also have gosr or another one.

 

56% of the time its weak to barrage and chalice/Bom. but d.d crow is also not very effective when they have barrage or terrortop. as the guy in the top 8 profile explained, if you d.d. crow nordens target but they can still ss another guy, then they get 2 draws +drident, while you have only 5 cards, and thats usually too much to come back from, even with one of their rats being banished. 

 

you could say d.d crow+gosr are good together and thats def true. but the flying c+ogre combo might still be better since getting flying c to stay on the field could give u the couple turns you need to mount ur comeback. 

 

 

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+mmf    23264

this is if you're playing 3 of both ghost ogre and flying c? yeah i guess i was looking at it wrong, when you put it that way flying c doesn't sound that bad. but honestly a hand trap that's only real half the time is still kinda asking to get punished imo. at least crow always does something, even though you never really need to resolve the second or third in, say, a pure zoo mirror. at least i can understand how flying c is playable in the first place. the way i was looking at it i couldn't understand how it was even in consideration.

 

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+mark    3099

If you play 6 hand traps you have 43,50% to open exactly 1 and 18,12% to open exactly 2. Odds they open Barrage/Chalice, on the other hand, is 57,71%. That's when you go 2nd, because when you go 1st, obviously odds are even worse: 42,29% to open exactly 1 hand trap, 13,64% to open exactly 2, and opponent has 64,96% the open Barrage/Chalice. But this doesn't take into account some builds play other outs as well, such as Dark Hole. This also includes doubles of GoSR though. I mean I fail to understand why GoSR + Flying C is better than GoSR + D.D. Crow, when they can still Chalice C? Your entire reason to play Flying C is "it's better if they can't out it, or if I double draw it", when it's mathematically proven that they're likely to have the out and you're extremly unlikely to draw into doubles.

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