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Grimey

Greninja BREAK Discussion

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Grimey    8113

So I only recently started playing (about 3 weeks ago), and I've played a lot of different decks in this time in both expanded and standard. Over the course of my play-time I have NEVER beaten Greninja BREAK. I don't know what I'm doing wrong or if it's the deck choices I'm making, but that deck is actually un-beatable when I have played it. It feels impossible to cut-off the Frogadier set-up because it's a 1 Energy requirement that can be used on literally any turn except for the first. It's extremely difficult to take down a Greninja BREAK due to the 170HP combined with free retreat and Rough Seas. I literally have to rush out a Garbodor to have anywhere near a close match-up with this deck. 

 

For reference, I've been playing these decks; 

 

Standard: Giratina/Darkrai, Yveltal/Zoroark BREAK, M Altaria EX

Expanded: Genesect/Bronzong, Korrina Garchomp, M Altaria EX, 

 

Anyways, I made this thread so that we can talk about this deck. I personally feel like the deck is insane and wins almost every match-up but I am looking for advice/knowledge from people who have been playing this game a bit longer than I have. Is there a certain way to tackle this deck? Should I be focusing on something specifically in this match-up? Does this deck even have a bad match-up? 

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+Mascis    4554

deck real real real inconsistent. the deck is trying to ramp to essentially a stage 4 pokémon just so it can deal 60 a turn for a discard. the deck has to play energy recursion over speed in some spots. the deck keeps a lot of cards in hand and often does nothing but try to evolve for the first few turns. 

 

you have to just play a deck that can hit with a high HP attacker fast. The worst thing i found from playing darkrai/giratina is that darkrai doesn't hit hard enough against most decks. 

 

knocking out frokie or frogadier early is key. hand denial via N is ok too, just you have a chance of it backfiring.

 

if you watch the finals of the world championships match vs. audino, the greninja drew aids and could do anything. but still, it's an uphill climb because audino hits for 110 on active and 50 on the bench. 

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+Gojira    1706

I'm surprised this deck gives anybody trouble tbh, evolving 3 times seems absurdly slow.

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Grimey    8113

I don't understand how people think this deck is inconsistent. The deck NEVER bricks against me. 

 

Dive Ball literally searches anything you need.. Frogadier only needs 1 Energy to completely fill the bench. Greninja hits for 80 flat with just 1 Energy. The whole deck is just low cost high profit. 

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Azzaw    64

I agree with Grimey, the deck is actually really good and pretty consistent. First turn Talonflames usually means they are going to set up quickly and if you let Frogadier get off they are pretty much set with all Greninjas. From my experience, you just need to interrupt them early on and hope they don't start with Talonflame. Hand denial is pretty great against the deck as well, I saw this game (forgot the matchup) where a guy used Ace Trainer early on and pretty much wrecked him afterwards, I wouldnt splash Ace Trainer just for that though. Mascis is right though, quick high attackers are the best general counter against Greninja

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»Pengwan    7723

It's popular because its the best budget deck but it has a lot of flaws and isn't very good imo

 

You legit have no way to kill a Garbodor with Muscle Band not legal in standard. You have to Lysandre it up twice, and the deck is shit with no abilities.

Hex Maniac loop with Seeker caps them at 80 damage per turn, which means you will get outpaced by every Mega deck in the format.

I like Talonflame in most decks because that card is just broken imo, but this deck is so much more dependent on opening with it.

It's really, really slow. I don't think Wally is very good because you don't play Shaymin so its generally better to use your Supporter to draw instead, but thats really the only card that accelerates your board. Otherwise its going to be turn 3-4 before you can even attack for damage, and if you give Mega Ray/Mewtwo and any other not slow as fuck deck 3-4 turns before you even touch them you will be behind a couple of prizes.

Parallel City is really popular now, which means they can just turn it towards them to get rid of the bench Shaymins and make all your attacks do 20 less, which is huge when your damage cap is small to start with.

I don't see how Mega Ray ever drops a game to this deck outside of bricking hard. We found the matchup so terrible in our testing I could never justify using Greninja in a tournament, I feel like you'd have to run 3-4 Parallel just to have any kind of chance. You can't even Shadow Stitching them until turn 3 and they will probably already have taken 2 prizes and loaded up a Ray or 2 by that point.

 

I can see how you'd be losing to it though. The deck snowballs, if they ever get to the point where they can just keep switching between Breaks and sniping you for 120-180 every turn with a Fisherman loop then yeah nothing is beating that in Standard. But it takes them at least turn 4 to get to that point. Giratina decks have a rough matchup against Greninja though because they don't play much Special energy if any, it takes Giratina at least 2 turns to start attacking outside of a ridiculous hand anyway. Try playing against Greninja with one of the faster decks in the format and you'll start to see it's a lot more beatable than you think.

 

I don't think Greninja bricks much though. It's just its good hands aren't even that good vs. most of the better decks in the format.

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»Pengwan    7723

And if it helps give you ideas on something else to play I've spent about 20-25 hours a week testing with my group for Orlando and we think the best decks going into Orlando are

 

M Mewtwo: Best Garbodor deck, can at least stall Tina with damage swap and has very strong matchups vs most other decks. Also can run Parallel to hard counter Mega Ray

Fright Night Yveltal: My favorite deck in the format right now, it doesn't really have any incredible matchups its just the only deck I've found where it never seems to get blown out. Even if things start to go poorly its really good at grinding back into things and it only takes 1 Lysandre/etc sometimes to lock them hard and start sniping them down for 4 prizes with Pitch Black Spear. It punishes people for playing down Hoopa/Shaymin without ways to get them out of the active, and its has a lot of room for tech choices.

Rainbow Road: Basically a better Mega Ray imo since it's not an evolution, not quite as dependent on Sky Field since it can still get to 190 with only 5 benched and can play Fairy Garden for free retreat. 

 

There's a lot of other decks as well that are good but we didnt like such as Mega Ray, Mega Scizor, Xerneas/Giratina, Volcanion as well that will be pretty popular.

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Grimey    8113

I was playing Spooky Scary Yveltal before I swapped to Giratina/Darkrai. I found that I lost games with that deck even more frequently vs Greninja BREAK. Are you playing the Yveltal, Zoroark BREAK line deck or is your list different? I wasn't playing Darkrai-EX in my list which is why I could literally never beat Greninja BREAK. 

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»Pengwan    7723

I play the Yveltal with Mews, don't like Darkrai EX in here. Like Yveltal EX alot since with Y-Cyclone + Fury Belt it can one shot Garbodor, and Evil Ball/Mew copying Evil Ball keeps a lot of threats in check. Don't play Zoroark or the Break. If you still have trouble with Greninja this deck can easily run a Garbodor line to improve that matchup though. Being able to hit for 60 and Fright Night cutting off Balloons gives you a strong early game vs Froakie/Frogadier, although admittedly you would have trouble checking Greninja BREAK. You would just need to run Garbodors and maybe a Lugia EX to hit for 150 and take out Rough Seas if you were that worried about playing vs. Greninja.

 

Greninja isn't a good matchup for that deck by any means since obviously the entire goal of the deck is to Lysandre up benched EXs with higher retreat costs then pick on them while spreading damage, but the deck can easily accommodate tech choices to deal with Greninja to at least make the matchup winnable for you.

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+Malcolm    4606

frogs are tier one in expanded and not worth playing in standard when you have so many better options

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+Malcolm    4606
6 hours ago, Pengwan said:

And if it helps give you ideas on something else to play I've spent about 20-25 hours a week testing with my group for Orlando and we think the best decks going into Orlando are

 

M Mewtwo: Best Garbodor deck, can at least stall Tina with damage swap and has very strong matchups vs most other decks. Also can run Parallel to hard counter Mega Ray

Fright Night Yveltal: My favorite deck in the format right now, it doesn't really have any incredible matchups its just the only deck I've found where it never seems to get blown out. Even if things start to go poorly its really good at grinding back into things and it only takes 1 Lysandre/etc sometimes to lock them hard and start sniping them down for 4 prizes with Pitch Black Spear. It punishes people for playing down Hoopa/Shaymin without ways to get them out of the active, and its has a lot of room for tech choices.

Rainbow Road: Basically a better Mega Ray imo since it's not an evolution, not quite as dependent on Sky Field since it can still get to 190 with only 5 benched and can play Fairy Garden for free retreat. 

 

There's a lot of other decks as well that are good but we didnt like such as Mega Ray, Mega Scizor, Xerneas/Giratina, Volcanion as well that will be pretty popular.

 

you don't like ray when it has an overwhelmingly favourable winrate vs what might be the most hyped deck at the tournament in volcanion, has at least a 50/50 vs mewtwo/garb/city and higher than 50/50 vs the version without both of those counters, and is also pretty favoured in the yveltal/mew matchup? what versions of ray did you play?

 

rainbow road isn't a better mega ray until the meta sees more definition and by that i mean volcanion falls off the heavy hype train because you don't roll into a tournament with one of the most hyped decks as what is probably your worst matchup

 

rainbow road hits 220 with 5 bench because you should be playing galvantula. bisharp is hot trash

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+Gojira    1706

How does the volcanion deck work? I get the recycling energy aspect,but which Pokemon is it using to attack?

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+Mascis    4554

@Gojira you can use the lil volcanion as an attacker. with two volcanion-ex you can do a solid 80 for 1 fire and then spread the energy you discarded around. flareon-ex is a good partner for you. you can always just use big volcanion too

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Grimey    8113
4 hours ago, Malcolm said:

frogs are tier one in expanded and not worth playing in standard when you have so many better options

 

If Volcanion is the most seen/relevant/hyped deck like you said in your other post, wouldn't Greninja be a GOOD choice going into Orlando? Am I missing something? 

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+Mascis    4554

because Greninja's clunkieness doesn't mean it's always gonna get an edge over volcanion. The deck starts attacking faster than Greninja so it's not auto win unless your opponent somehow bricks

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Malcolm's Multi    1790
3 hours ago, Grimey said:

 

If Volcanion is the most seen/relevant/hyped deck like you said in your other post, wouldn't Greninja be a GOOD choice going into Orlando? Am I missing something? 

 

the matchup isn't an auto win by any means and frogs get rolled by too many other decks

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