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Lightsworn - Discussion

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»canasian    4105

…and people complain that Burning Abyss have overstayed their welcome.

 

 

MINERVA.jpg

Lightsworns have come a long way since their introduction in 2008, when the deck revolved around drawing into and setting up Judgment Dragon. Raiden, Hand of the Lightsworn not only gave the deck a much better outlet for milling during its main phase, but as a tuner it opened up a variety of Synchro options for the deck.

Far more important, though, is the release of Minerva, the Exalted Lightsworn, a Rank 4 Xyz which allows the deck to generate massive advantage from its milling mechanic beyond just getting lucky milling Wulf or setting up JD.

Unfortunately, Minerva’s only release in the TCG thus far has been as a YCS prize card, but players with access to it also have access to a deck with incredibly strong potential plays that is surprisingly consistent for how heavily it focuses on sending random cards to the graveyard.

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These are the best options for Lightsworn monsters to run in the main deck. The level 4 Lightsworns’ biggest issue is that they’re either normal summons, or cannot be summoned from the hand easily at all, so the rest of the deck has to be structured around accommodating such subpar cards.

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performage-trick-clown-core-en018-common

 

Speaking of bypassing normal summon limitations, Gem-Knight Seraphinite is a more than perfect solution. As a bonus, Performage Trick Clown provides fairly constant board presence for the deck.

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Other enablers for Synchro/Xyz plays. Goblindbergh isn’t always played, but it gives the deck an option to summon Felis or Wulf in hand.

 

 

FairyTailSnow-TDIL-EN-SP-UE.png

Fairy Tail – Snow arguably contributes just as much, if not more, than Minerva to Lightsworn decks’ recent success. It’s usable from anywhere, at any time, making it not only a combo enabler but also an interactive play on the opponent’s turn. Lightsworns perfectly complement her difficult-to-meet but minimal summoning cost, as without Judgment Dragon the deck doesn’t actually need to keep all of its cards in the graveyard at all times.

 

 

 

 

 

Other options:


Zombie engine

-Uni-Zombie

-Mezuki

-Shiranui Solitaire

 

Galaxy Soldier for access to Cyber Dragon Infinity and Constellar Pleiades

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Zach Butler    54

Finally, I've been waiting for this. Might be worth noting the more "pure" build Johnny has played a lot, even if it's not as efficient. For the sake of discussion.

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Warthog    165

Can someone format the images and maybe find ones that doesn't have ARG stamped on it? Looks like ass.

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Grimey    8113
5 minutes ago, Warthog said:

Can someone format the images and maybe find ones that doesn't have ARG stamped on it? Looks like ass.

 

shut up

 

do you even own a copy of minerva u fuckin nerd 

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Zach Butler    54
2 hours ago, Grimey said:

 

shut up

 

do you even own a copy of minerva u fuckin nerd 

I 100% expect every person who offers some shit idea to get asked this 

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mark    3105

In the rank 4 variant of this deck I kind of like the approach of 'play emeral so you can play 15 different extra deck monsters', basically reasoning that you're playing 2 of each extra deck monster as long as you can make a rank 4, which shouldn't be a problem. Even Minerva itself is once per turn and I assume people don't want to have to buy 2. I also might like the Malicious-Plague engine as you can main allures, an armageddon knight, a shaddoll beast, and have acces to Beatrice, stardust charge warrior and LV8 synchro's. Plague fixes a lot of problems here (drawing Garnet, Trick, Any LS, Malicious), ideally you send 1-2 wulf/felis back then use Minerva, draw 1-2 and special them. The problem I've encountered so far is your opening hands get quite monster clogged when you don't draw Allure/Brilliant, which can fix almost any hand. It makes me want to play Desires as well, I wouldn't mind bumping the deck up to 45 for that but it might not even be necessary. I mean besides a Desires, a few Solar/Charge and maybe 1 or 2 Minerva plays, how much does this deck mill anyway? Probably not too much. Emeral and Plague also prevent deckout. I think this deck's biggest problem is still 'good draws are bad mills, good mills are bad draws', and it needs cards that can serve a purpose that Damage Juggler used to serve, Fairy Tail - Snow is probably one of the examples that get around it, where on the other hand cards such as Felis can be broken when milled with Minerva, but are dead draws/mills so much of the time that it just isn't worth playing it. This may even mean the Malicious idea sucks although I'd probably still argue for Plaguespreader even without the other darks. I do like Allures though to dig for any Charge, so I'm kind of undecided: maybe 3 Allure 3 Plague 2 Shaddoll Beast 1 Armageddon (makes Rota a dark) is viable. Brilliant Fusion is pretty broken though, I think it's a staple and milling garnet is fixed by Emeral: the double normal summon part makes up for a lot. I think Trick Clown is still great (good draw, good mill, costing your normal sucks but makes Brilliant all the much better). 

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Zach Butler    54
2 hours ago, mark said:

In the rank 4 variant of this deck I kind of like the approach of 'play emeral so you can play 15 different extra deck monsters', basically reasoning that you're playing 2 of each extra deck monster as long as you can make a rank 4, which shouldn't be a problem. Even Minerva itself is once per turn and I assume people don't want to have to buy 2. I also might like the Malicious-Plague engine as you can main allures, an armageddon knight, a shaddoll beast, and have acces to Beatrice, stardust charge warrior and LV8 synchro's. Plague fixes a lot of problems here (drawing Garnet, Trick, Any LS, Malicious), ideally you send 1-2 wulf/felis back then use Minerva, draw 1-2 and special them. The problem I've encountered so far is your opening hands get quite monster clogged when you don't draw Allure/Brilliant, which can fix almost any hand. It makes me want to play Desires as well, I wouldn't mind bumping the deck up to 45 for that but it might not even be necessary. I mean besides a Desires, a few Solar/Charge and maybe 1 or 2 Minerva plays, how much does this deck mill anyway? Probably not too much. Emeral and Plague also prevent deckout. I think this deck's biggest problem is still 'good draws are bad mills, good mills are bad draws', and it needs cards that can serve a purpose that Damage Juggler used to serve, Fairy Tail - Snow is probably one of the examples that get around it, where on the other hand cards such as Felis can be broken when milled with Minerva, but are dead draws/mills so much of the time that it just isn't worth playing it. This may even mean the Malicious idea sucks although I'd probably still argue for Plaguespreader even without the other darks. I do like Allures though to dig for any Charge, so I'm kind of undecided: maybe 3 Allure 3 Plague 2 Shaddoll Beast 1 Armageddon (makes Rota a dark) is viable. Brilliant Fusion is pretty broken though, I think it's a staple and milling garnet is fixed by Emeral: the double normal summon part makes up for a lot. I think Trick Clown is still great (good draw, good mill, costing your normal sucks but makes Brilliant all the much better). 

I wouldn't want to add more bricks to a deck that already has a ton personally. In that case you might as well just run felis since she has more synergy with the core engines and takes less space than Mali/Plague/Arma/Dragon. Though, I guess you could argue a larger deck size would make that viable? I just don't see the merit, we already have a solid rank4/Synchro engine. I'm extremely on the fence about the brilliant engine as a whole, but that's just a bad bias on my part.

Just putting this out there, Bujintei Amaterasu should absolutely be in the extra deck, I don't see why it wasn't more played. It fixes the problem of milling hand traps as long as you have access to Snow, and extends your plays even more on your turn. Also, Crimson Blader is definitely a card worth considering given the ABC match up alone. Which brings me to my quesiton; is that match up as heavily in their favor as it seems? I only have limited  data from personal experience which is skewed, but it seems like it favors them.

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»canasian    4105
10 hours ago, Warthog said:

Can someone format the images and maybe find ones that doesn't have ARG stamped on it? Looks like ass.

Yeah I'm not putting actual effort into an OP that frankly nobody should need to read because this deck 100% builds itself

 

11 hours ago, Zach Butler said:

Finally, I've been waiting for this. Might be worth noting the more "pure" build Johnny has played a lot, even if it's not as efficient. For the sake of discussion.

Someone posted in a Theory/Philosophy thread a few days ago that articulated pretty well why JD is fundamentally not worth playing anymore

Aside from that needing to run even more bad/unplayable cards just to enable a card that's already winmore to begin with sounds like a way to make an already sacky inconsistent deck even more sacky and inconsistent

 

1 hour ago, mark said:

In the rank 4 variant of this deck I kind of like the approach of 'play emeral so you can play 15 different extra deck monsters', 

The only extra deck monster you truly need multiples of imo is Omega because double turn 1 Omega comes up fairly often to force your opponent to play with 4 cards

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mark    3105

The reason I don't like felis is because it doesn't even work when milled (solar, charge, also not with brilliant although that's my least concern), besides being a brick.

The going over 40 part was basically me saying I think 3x Desires is needed in this deck, and I'd be willing to go somewhat over 40 for it, although I suppose 40-cards with 3 Desires is probably just fine.


I do agree about not wanting to add too many bricks, however, you also have to consider the fact that having a powerful draw engine that contains Allures, Stardust Charge Warrior, Beatrice, Shaddoll beast (can be milled, or send with Rota, Armageddon), stacking LS for Minerva with Psz, etc. will draw you a shit-ton of cards as well, besides giving you a bunch of good mills. Psz+Mali alone gives you 2 Omega's(I agree with canasian on playing 2 for T1 plays), or Stardust Charge->Beatrice (sending Shaddoll beast), which draws you 2 cards as well, and really all you have to do is either mill them, or draw them together with Allure/Brilliant in order to make them useful. It is one of these things that probably worked better if Rota was at 2 or 3 because of how flexible it is, because it can basically be anything (Solar target, Allure target, Raiden for mills, Arma for Beast, Malicious or Psz, whatever you need). Psz + Instant/Brilliant is also BRD, if that means anything, and it you're maining Panzer Dragon to begin with. 

I like Crimson Blader for ABC, but for that matchup to become favorable I think we need both a good T1 board to make vs them (I guess omega's and praying isn't the best strategy), and when going 2nd we need a reliable way to break both the ABC, backrow, and then hope they still have a monster to run over with Blader. If they decide to tag ABC, they can still make a shitload of rank 4's if you don't get rid of that as well). If your build mains 3 Twin Twister and you blind second (or side this card), then I could see Farfa being optional to deal with fields, as basically discarding it with Twister, 2nd summoning it with Brilliant and it killing itself, or milling it will give you a free banish. I can see the downsides though as it's yet another brick, also, if you don't OTK them their monster coming back could prove a problem as well. Just throwing some ideas around here. I'd probably main something like Scarlight RDA as well to at least beat A,B,C - fields while possibly OTKing, but yeah, the problem I guess is dealing with the ABC+backrow to begin with. 

 

Talking about ABC and LS, has anyone thought of, or tried, an ABC+LS hybrid deck? Spamming Minerva/Tsukuyomi while having ABC as an absolute boss monster seems good if someone can make such a thing work. Brick city probably, but between 6 Hangar, 6 Charge, 3 Desires and a bunch of ways to make rank 4's that's one hell of a deck. 

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Zach Butler    54
2 hours ago, canasian said:

Yeah I'm not putting actual effort into an OP that frankly nobody should need to read because this deck 100% builds itself

 

Someone posted in a Theory/Philosophy thread a few days ago that articulated pretty well why JD is fundamentally not worth playing anymore

Aside from that needing to run even more bad/unplayable cards just to enable a card that's already winmore to begin with sounds like a way to make an already sacky inconsistent deck even more sacky and inconsistent

 

The only extra deck monster you truly need multiples of imo is Omega because double turn 1 Omega comes up fairly often to force your opponent to play with 4 cards

I'll agree to the 2nd point, just figured I would mention it for the sake of discussion. The Omega point is extremely valid, there has never been a point where I've thought to myself "man if I had a 2nd X card". Can we get a link to the thread you mentioned?

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mark    3105
5 minutes ago, Zach Butler said:

I'll agree to the 2nd point, just figured I would mention it for the sake of discussion. The Omega point is extremely valid, there has never been a point where I've thought to myself "man if I had a 2nd X card". Can we get a link to the thread you mentioned?

I think he's talking about the post I made in here: 

 

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Blacklisted    1330

How often does the standard rank 4 deck open plain unplayable?

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Zach Butler    54
2 hours ago, Blacklisted said:

How often does the standard rank 4 deck open plain unplayable?

Unplayable? Practically never, you just vomit out rank 4's. Weak? That's a different story. 

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oliver?    690
On 11/5/2016 at 6:44 AM, Zach Butler said:

Unplayable? Practically never, you just vomit out rank 4's. Weak? That's a different story. 

can confirm

 

your opening being strong depends entirely on your mills

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»victor    6400

Some thoughts I had when reading this discussion:

  • Regarding the opening, you can always play Ties of the Brethren in here. Raiden + Garoth (draws) + Ehren (works with Snow) is pretty much all you need.
  • Regarding strength of R4, you could play Trapeze Magician for OTKs.
  • I think the only builds that would play JD are those that use Snow to banish Eclipse Wyvern to add it to hand.

You even can play Left Arm Offering to search for Instant Fusion or Soul Charge.

 

On a more gimmicky note, there's a lot of filler for the deck, e.g. Toy Vendor engine and Fluffal Bear/Wings, so you have a discard outlet for the cards you want in grave.

 

Empowerment + Dragodies, and so on.

 

--------

 

As was already stated, the deck pretty much builds itself.

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mark    3105

I've thought about Left Arm Offering but the problem is that by the time you want to use it, you have milled or banished Soul Charge already, and it's not like you can play left offering 'early' because you can't set your spells and it banishes your entire hand: also the Soul Charge would be weak so there would be no point. Not sure what Ties of the Brethen accomplishes when you can't SS after, yeah you might draw 2 cards with garoth in EP, but you're cancelling all your Wulfs etc. and can't XYZ/Synchro, so what's the point? Unless if you're playing an entirely different build with tons of cards you want to mill though, like the Snow-Eclipse build you're talking about and I guess you could add Electromagnetic Turtle etc. Seems quite inferior to the 'spam the field with omega's or OTK stuff' though. I'm also wondering if people are even playing 4 LS for JD to begin with, let alone enough to consistently see 4 in grave: I think only Raidens and Wulfs are necessary, maybe a Garoth or Lumina won't hurt. Sure you can play Lyla, Ehren, Felis as well, but I think you're just clogging your hand with normal summons and bricks if you go that route, not to mention the Snow/Eclipse/JD/etc. themselves. I'm basically thinking any draw you get from Minerva/Garoth because you're playing 10+ LS is nothing more than a compensation for the times you drew those LS to begin with, therefore not worth it, because it doesn't get your hand 'going' to begin with as you can't guarantee to open Minerva+Garoth, also the draws might be worth nothing if you've used your normal summon already. Like what are you trying to draw into besides Instant/Soul Charge or Solar/Charge and hopefully mill more Wulfs/Snow? 

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muzzy    92

 

 

Piloted the deck to a 1st place regional win in the U.K.  The Regional had 66 players but contained at least 3 Top32 YCS Liverpool players. 

 

This is was the first time I had played the deck IRL but had a lot of Devpro AI test hands with similar builds. 

 

Originally I was running 42 cards running the PK trap but I found it a bit pointless and was afraid of playing vs a Toad deck so this was the deck I chose to play in the picture. 

 

I didn't find many problems with the deck itself. The only problem cards I faced was Kirin and it was a very big problem. During round 1 a game took 35 minutes because he opened a Kirin. He weren't the best of players but because of the Kirin it meant that I didn't just steam roll him. 

 

R2 was the same thing but the player had Kirin in the mid game and then the game lasted like 35 minutes. G2 he goes first and has a Kirin on board, I look to my hand and pack up to make sure there is a G3. I go first set up Tsukuyomi Minerva Omega and win the following turn. 

 

ABC was the next problem I found in the tournament but it can easily be took care of. Against one player who went first in G2 and opened it. I tried to play through it but failed. But I won G3 because of Anti Spell and Emptiness. 

 

I have now concluded that the reapers and the Reaper target(s) shouldn't be in the deck and that Soul Charge also needs to be cut. I never used Soul Charge and sometimes I do have to banish certain things with Snow so by cutting them I get it to 40 cards. 

 

Now the puzzle I have to solve is how do I play against Kirin ABC and Toad since they are a problem. With ABC I can make a Cairngorgon and that will make sure I can play again.

 

Cairngorgon cannot solve Kirin though so are there any other Extra Deck options against Toad and Kirin. Lightning can solve Toad but id have to take 2 Extra Deck cards out then and that still doesn't solve Kirin. 

 

Anyway I'd like to hear people's thoughts about solving the 3 problems 

IMG_2698.PNG

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mark    3105

I don't see how you could cut Soul Charge... it's the best card of the deck. 

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muzzy    92

I can set up a board of Minerva Tsukuyomi 2 Omega without a soul charge. I need to open Thrasher Brilliant and need to see Uni-Zombie and Instant Fusion. 

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Zach Butler    54
6 hours ago, muzzy said:

I can set up a board of Minerva Tsukuyomi 2 Omega without a soul charge. I need to open Thrasher Brilliant and need to see Uni-Zombie and Instant Fusion. 

Just because you CAN do that, doesn't rationalize cutting the single most powerful card in your deck. There's no reason to do so.

You could cut additional copies of Thrasher (or the RotA) since they fill the same specific and narrow purpose, you also have such a higher number of starter cards that cutting 1 will not be of consequence. 

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Blacklisted    1330

Toad gets run over by any extra deck with attaack points. I feel like Amataerasu is near staple in the extra being able to recycle your guys and then also add a Maxx C back to your hand on their turn is huge

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Zach Butler    54
1 hour ago, Blacklisted said:

Toad gets run over by any extra deck with attaack points. I feel like Amataerasu is near staple in the extra being able to recycle your guys and then also add a Maxx C back to your hand on their turn is huge

Agreed, at this point it's such a strong card I don't understand how people aren't using it.

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dexer008    805

This just topped a regional, variant runs zero minerva and might be something other players can use if they don't own a copy. Not sure how good the deck is as I don't follow this deck/tread for the same reason (minervaless, most of opponent's also being), but it's another option for the deck to gain more ground this format;

 

 

In the profile, Utopic Dragon is suppose to be Bahamut Shark

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wduartes    75
6 hours ago, muzzy said:

 

 

Piloted the deck to a 1st place regional win in the U.K.  The Regional had 66 players but contained at least 3 Top32 YCS Liverpool players. 

 

This is was the first time I had played the deck IRL but had a lot of Devpro AI test hands with similar builds. 

 

Originally I was running 42 cards running the PK trap but I found it a bit pointless and was afraid of playing vs a Toad deck so this was the deck I chose to play in the picture. 

 

I didn't find many problems with the deck itself. The only problem cards I faced was Kirin and it was a very big problem. During round 1 a game took 35 minutes because he opened a Kirin. He weren't the best of players but because of the Kirin it meant that I didn't just steam roll him. 

 

R2 was the same thing but the player had Kirin in the mid game and then the game lasted like 35 minutes. G2 he goes first and has a Kirin on board, I look to my hand and pack up to make sure there is a G3. I go first set up Tsukuyomi Minerva Omega and win the following turn. 

 

ABC was the next problem I found in the tournament but it can easily be took care of. Against one player who went first in G2 and opened it. I tried to play through it but failed. But I won G3 because of Anti Spell and Emptiness. 

 

I have now concluded that the reapers and the Reaper target(s) shouldn't be in the deck and that Soul Charge also needs to be cut. I never used Soul Charge and sometimes I do have to banish certain things with Snow so by cutting them I get it to 40 cards. 

 

Now the puzzle I have to solve is how do I play against Kirin ABC and Toad since they are a problem. With ABC I can make a Cairngorgon and that will make sure I can play again.

 

Cairngorgon cannot solve Kirin though so are there any other Extra Deck options against Toad and Kirin. Lightning can solve Toad but id have to take 2 Extra Deck cards out then and that still doesn't solve Kirin. 

 

Anyway I'd like to hear people's thoughts about solving the 3 problems 

IMG_2698.PNG

why do you played 3 thrasher instead of X trasher and Y goblindbergh?

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Zach Butler    54
3 hours ago, wduartes said:

why do you played 3 thrasher instead of X trasher and Y goblindbergh?

* Doesn't require another monster for usefulness

* Light

* 2100 is relevant because Kirin exists 

* Doesn't eat your normal summon

* Doesn't get affected by veiler/maxx "c" 

Though Goblin does have pros too, I'd imagine being a stand alone strong card that's light, etc., was more important.

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