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Gishkill: Can It Be Revived and Modernized? (OVER A YEAR OLD, CURRENTLY UNUSABLE)

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MODS: If this thread breaks the rules in any way, please lock and/or delete it.  I don't wish to cause trouble here, I'm just wondering if this deck can be saved at all since it's been gutted so badly in the past year.

So, back in 2015, I posted a thread where I showcased my own take on the old Evigishki Mind Augus deckout loop, and I asked for critiques and advice.  Here is the thread.  I'd like to start a new discussion about it instead of bumping the old thread, but more focused on whether or not the deck can be revived at all.  I'll post a screenshot of the old deck list (along with what the Extra might look like today), along with my reasoning for many of the card choices, albeit summarized.

 

DISCLAIMER: Please note that this deck is from 2015.  As you can see below, it is IN NO WAY legal for the current format.  I am seeking advice as to how to revive it and modernize it, or if it's even possible.  If you don't believe it can be resurrected, go ahead and say so.  I'm beginning to think so too.

 

Gishkill Origin.png

 

Monsters: 9

1x Lich Lord, King of the Underworld

1x Shaddoll Beast

2x Summoner Monk

3x Royal Magical Library

1x Gishki Vanity

1x Evigishki Mind Augus

 

Spells: 31

1x Allure of Darkness

1x One Day of Peace

3x Upstart Goblin (CURRENTLY LIMITED)

3x Terraforming

3x Golden Bamboo Sword

3x Into the Void

1x Magical Stone Excavation

1x Gishki Aquamirror

1x Magical Dimension

3x Hand Destruction

1x Broken Bamboo Sword

3x Cursed Bamboo Sword

1x Magical Citadel of Endymion

3x Chicken Game (CURRENTLY BANNED)

3x Pseudo-Space

 

So, let's dive into this nonsense, shall we?  The primary goal of the deck was to 1) Empty your own deck to control the loop more easily; 2) Make sure Gishki Vanity's effect is active and applied; 3) Wind Condition: Augus Loop decks out opponent.  Most of the methodology is very obvious at first glance: Use Library and Spells as the draw engine, use Summoner Monk for a Library from deck if you get one, use Allure one one of the Monks (or both, if you think it's justified, doesn't matter much), combine Chicken Game and Pseudo Space for six draws, yada yada yada.  You guys know all these combos, and more.  The original engine was stripped out entirely and replaced with almost pure draw power and a smaller, self-recycling engine for Augus.

There are some unusual card choices when compared to the original version, but before I get into that, here's another DISCLAIMER: Yes, I played with the original version.  Extensively.  Its win rate was anything but spectacular, at about 50-60%, and it bricked quite often.  It also ended up leading me down dead ends, even when playing with the primary rule of deck thinning: Search first, draw later.  It looked great on paper, but in practice, it just didn't work out that well.  The above version, however, actually ended up being far more streamlined, had a much higher win rate, and bricked way less than the original.

Okay, let's get to it.  First: No Tetrogre, Gustkraken, or Soul Ogre.  Simple: Gustkraken does more harm than good in this deck because it can actually make Hand Destruction dead.  Tetrogre was run as primarily as a Tribute for Mind Augus, but its effect could sometimes be used to thin my opponent's deck, if I got lucky on the call, or they just wanted to get it over with (or didn't know better).  Soul Ogre was ONLY present because of Trade-In.

 

No Gishki Shadow/Vision or Salvage: Don't need 'em anymore.  They wound up being dead weight in a LOT of situations.  I know, I could use them as full Tributes for Mind Augus, but that also required running Salvage, which would also become dead weight a lot.  That engine was just plain clunky.

Lich Lord: Mandatory self-recycling effect when Tributed by an effect (perfect for Ritual Summons).  It has exactly ONE use in this deck, but it's only one card, which makes it superior to Shadow/Vision/Salvage.  How?  It's one card instead of 9, which leaves me 8 slots for draw power.

 

Shaddoll Beast: Secondary effect use is pretty obvious: Graved by effect, draw 1 card (only once that turn, though).  But it has another use: It's a Spellcaster-Type monster.  Which brings me to the next weird card in the deck...

 

Magical Dimension: Use it to replace an Effect Veiler'd Library in early game.  Has essential function once the loop is begun: Tribute Mind Augus, Special Shaddoll Beast (or Library or Monk).  After a while, you're gonna want to destroy Shaddoll Beast with Dimension's last effect so you can put it back in the Grave, then use Mind Augus to get it and Dimension back.  In short, it's how you recycle Augus.  No clunky search engine required.

Magical Citadel of Endymion: Once per turn Spell Counter substitution effect works great with the Libraries.  NEVER EVER EVER banish this for Pseudo-Space.  EVER!  However, you can continuously reuse the effect by replacing it with a Pseudo-Space or Chicken Game, then recycling it with Augus.  Recycle another Field Spell on the next go, rinse and repeat.

Bamboo engine: Believe it or not, I have way more success with this than with any other engine this deck has run.  +1 with Golden, -2 to my own deck as well, Cursed is a searcher for Broken and Golden that can trigger off of Hand Destruction, Magical Dimension (equipped monster is Tributed/destroyed) or Ritual Summon (equipped monster is Tributed).

 

Extra Deck: I almost never needed it unless I screwed up somewhere, but it helps when I do.

 

Side Deck: Non-existent, hoping for advice...?

 

In order to legalize the deck, the following cards must first be removed.

 

-2 Upstart Goblin

-3 Chicken Game

-2 or -3 Terraforming (becomes unnecessary)

-3 Pseudo-Space (only useful with Chicken Game)

 

That's 10 or 11 cards removed.  IF this deck can be given new life (and I admit, that's a BIG "if"), what cards should replace these?  Would like to steer clear the original engine, if at all possible, but it may be unavoidable.

 

EDIT: Have replaced the above cards (and all 3 Terras) with the following.  Initially tried maxed out Broww and a single copy of Arcane Barrier in hopes of combining it with M-Dimension once the loop got started... yeah, it was basically just one Spell Counter.  Also tried Instant Fusion+Norden, but it didn't really amount to much.

 

+2x Broww, Huntsman of Dark World

+2x Allure of Darkness (now maxed)

+1x Broken Bamboo Sword

+3x Dark World Dealings

+2x Spell Power Grasp

+1x Magical Citadel of Endymion

 

For OCG, or the Raging Tempest release next February, perhaps replace the second Broken Bamboo with Foolish Burial with Belongings.

 

I seem to be having significant success with these changes, but it appears to be mostly luck, as I end up top-decking at least half the time.

Gishkill Origin.png

Edited by Starlight Warrior

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+mark    2935

I don't think this is viable at all, but I'll leave this thread open because you never know what people can come up with 

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I'm having SOME success with a few of my ideas... still trying to keep the monster count as low as possible because the Salvage/Searcher engine is just cloggy as all get out.  Tried it again a little while ago... ten pounds of NOPE in a five pound bag, that's what that was.

 

The original version above was actually pretty damn effective at doing what it did, much more so than the original version, simply because it had fewer cards in it that could brick.

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+mark    2935

This is basically true for all FTK's, but even moreso now that Chicken Game/Upstarts are gone and other decks are becoming better and better:
Are you playing against yourself or are you practicing stuff like going 2nd, playing against hand traps, 60-card decks etc. Any deck can make Jowgen/Fiend/Kristya, ABC, any XYZ that negates spells or effect monsters, possible backed up by traps as well. Not to mention you straight up lose against stuff such as Paleozoic, or any deck that has an effective side deck. I'd be surprised if you could manage to even have a 20% winrate in matches all things considered. If you want this or any FTK to be viable you're going to need to look into recently released cards: are there any ways you can abuse the Pendulum mechanic? the Darklord drawengine? Can you make some sort of deck that can open up with floodgate locks, or FTK's, or otherwise just clear fields and backrows? Can you make a deck that's capable of both FTKing, but also as playing as a normal deck (such as Frog FTK was, despite it's insane consistency and the fact decks were weaker and slower by then)? If you can't answer nowadays meta then you don't stand a chance. Beat fire with fire. 

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Mostly just against the AI on PercyPro, but I'm pretty sure it cheats a lot.  Any deck that can Solemn Strike me right away is bad news- frankly, I just hate the entire Solemn series.  To be honest, it's the only way I CAN practice with the deck.  I don't own the cards IRL, DuelingNetwork went the way of the dodo, and DuelingNexus is nowhere near complete enough to practice on.  As for playing against actual people, the inbuilt time limit on any YGOPro variant makes it impossible to play these decks, even with no mistakes.

 

Whether or not I go first or second, or even if I'm playing against the meta, isn't all that big a problem, to be completely honest.  True to the original, the point of the deck is to win the match in one game.  The deck is specifically built so that you MUST go into overtime in order to win.  No slow play required, either.  No matter how quickly you play your cards, if you skip the explanations, and your opponent has no responses,you will go into overtime with this deck.  If anything, the biggest threat to this deck is the smart player who figures out what you're doing long before you finish setting up the loop.  Handtraps (god, I hate that term) can be problematic, but it's nothing I couldn't handle with the old build.  No, the real threat is that smart player working out what my goal is, forfeiting game one, and then proceeding to mop the floor with me in games 2 and 3.  The deck's greatest weapon is the element of surprise.  Unfortunately, that's also its biggest weakness.
 

Ah well.  What would you suggest for a Pendulum engine?  And could you link me to something that shows how a Darklord engine would work?  I haven't begun playing with them yet.  Life's been kinda crazy around the house lately, and I just don't have time for YGO like I used to.

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+mark    2935

I don't have an answer to that question, because as I already said, I don't believe in this deck, or in any kind of FTK deck at the moment. You talk as if Solemn is your worst concern, but it is not. ANY deck can disrupt your combo. Look up decklists of YCS/ARG/CCG top 16/32s, look up all of the cards, watch youtube matches, see deck profiles, and you'll see what I mean. I feel like you've been out of the game so long that you don't realize how powerful decks currently are. Making a T1 field with a floodgate-monster, or a 'trap'-monster combined with backrow is considered to be normal. You can't tell me that you can play through all that negation consistently, it is not possible to build a deck that's consistent enough to always draw the combo, while at the same time having enough ways to deal with both backrows and fields. You would need Twin Twister + a field wiper such as Raigeki, but even that won't always cut it: your opponent could have more than 2 backrows set and the 3rd or 4th could kill your combo, your opponent's field could have monster that can't be destroyed or that negate spells, so Raigeki won't always be enough. Yes, you could go ahead and play Book of Eclipses, Twin Twisters, Dark Holes etc. but then tell me how are you consistently going to draw the combo? I'm giving you the tools to come up with something useful, but I'm not going to spoon-feed you on this. If you believe in this FTK then you must find a way to answer all problems mentioned, many people have made hybrid decks with pendulum engines such as Igknight/Metalfoes, or used draw engines such as Monarch, for Darklords you can check the deck discussion thread of it which I'll directly quote: " With 3 Allure, 3 Trade In, 3 Pot of Desires, 3 Ixchel, and 3 Banishment, and Upstart, plus the copy effects, you play 15+ draw cards, which is this deck's most significant strength. " Note that I'm not arguing in favor of any of these things mentioned, rather I'm giving examples as to what you can try to 'modernize your deck', because the title of this topic is the only accurate thing of it. It is outdated and currently unusable, not only because of Upstart/Chicken Game, but because of how the game has developed as well. And you can't say 'I don't care about the meta', because you will lose to it. 

 

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Well, of course I care, and I know how deadly it is.  I'm sorry if you thought that's what I said.  I didn't mean to confuse you.

 

Well, thanks for your help anyway, mark.  The current build isn't holding up too well anyway... even with only two additional monster cards (2x Broww), it's still throwing everything out of balance.  Plain and simple, it just needs pure draw power, not gimmicky deck thinners like Broww or Spell Power Grasp.  A card that's S/T hate and draw power would be nice, but I don't think those exist outside of the anime.  I think I'll put this on the back burner until something else comes up.

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+mark    2935

Probably all bad, but for what it's worth, cards that can serve more than one purpose (when it comes to Monster destruction, S/T destruction, and drawing cards)

Gemini Spark

Foolish Burial/Hand Destruction/Twin Twister + Any card that lets you draw/search or destroy a card when discarded/send to the graveyard

Archfiend Eccentrick

In a darklord deck: Banishment of the Darklords can get Ixchel for the draw, or Darklord Contact to special summon a darklord you discarded with Trade-In/Ixchel, to make rank 8's and deal with stuff

In a Monarch deck: Tenacity, Pantheism, Strike of the Monarch, Frost Blast of the Monarch, Stormforth, Kuraz, etc. do all that, but require a normal summon, not to mention Pantheism being limited

Artifact Ignition

Dicephoon + stacked dice (not serious)

Probably anything with Mathematician, Summoner Monk, Armageddon Knight, although these all cost your normal summon. Brilliant Fusion can compensate for that, and the light can be useful (such as stone->BEWD for trade-in, lazuli+normal etc.), but requires you to run many bricks, although in FTK strategies Magical Mallet/Reload aren't bad either. 

There's probably more, especially when you're going to look into Pendulum decks that use the extra deck, but each have their own obvious drawbacks and they require you to build your entire deck around them.

 

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+mark    2935

I think pendulum summoning Kuraz is the closest thing you'll get when it comes to versatility and drawing/destroying monsters or S/T's. 

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dexer008    779

For you question, nah I think Gishkill isn't viable at all, or like mark said any ftk. The only one I think that actually stands a shot is nurse burn (she was errated to become a darklord now, they have a rota to search her) or exodia ftk with some way to abuse massive draw cards such as Hope for escape or something like using utopia change tactics to keep drawing off xyzing up and down utopia monsters. I say nurse burn over other burn variants as they have the ability to deal 2000/3000 damage with single cards.

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I'll definitely look into all of those, mark.  After I've learned Darklords, of course.  Starting off with Jonathan Thomas' deck.  Learning a deck is pretty easy for me.  Some trial and error, make some mistakes against the AI, make mental note of them so I don't do it again, I'll have the deck down pat real quick.  Half an hour, maybe an hour tops, I don't know how long it takes anyone else to learn a deck's play style.

 

Dexer: Sounds reasonable.  Not really sure about using an Xyz Change engine for Exodia, though.  Sounds a bit clunky to me.

Edited by Starlight Warrior

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+mark    2935

According to Patrick Hoban it takes 3 months 40 hours/week to get to know a deck. But then again, not everyone is him. 

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12 hours ago, mark said:

According to Patrick Hoban it takes 3 months 40 hours/week to get to know a deck. But then again, not everyone is him. 

 

Wow, it takes him that long to learn a deck?  Jeez, is English not his first language or something?  Nobody's that stupid, right?  Especially not a pro player, albeit an infamous one like Hoban.

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Me.    1347
2 hours ago, Starlight Warrior said:

 

Wow, it takes him that long to learn a deck?  Jeez, is English not his first language or something?  Nobody's that stupid, right?  Especially not a pro player, albeit an infamous one like Hoban.

I think it's more a matter of you having different definitions of "learning a deck".

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Perhaps.  Still, it can't be that hard, can it?  I mean, is he trying to learn every single combination of every single card?  Wouldn't it be better to just learn a few guiding principles of strategic YGO and card advantage/utility, and learn how to wing it in a duel?  Why spend three months learning a deck in and out when it's so much easier, and just as effective, to just learn strategy?

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DarkBlaze557    2160
12 minutes ago, Starlight Warrior said:

Perhaps.  Still, it can't be that hard, can it?  I mean, is he trying to learn every single combination of every single card?  Wouldn't it be better to just learn a few guiding principles of strategic YGO and card advantage/utility, and learn how to wing it in a duel?  Why spend three months learning a deck in and out when it's so much easier, and just as effective, to just learn strategy?

 

"Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."

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+ACP+    33889
21 hours ago, mark said:

According to Patrick Hoban it takes 3 months 40 hours/week to get to know a deck. But then again, not everyone is him. 

That's bullshit.

 

Basically, his idea is to treat Yugioh like a full-time job, and then once you've finally "learned" your deck, the format is over or a new set has come out and now you have to play something else.

 

Patrick may be quite good at Yugioh, but his theory is garbage 90% of the time.

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+mark    2935
1 hour ago, ACP said:

That's bullshit.

 

Basically, his idea is to treat Yugioh like a full-time job, and then once you've finally "learned" your deck, the format is over or a new set has come out and now you have to play something else.

 

Patrick may be quite good at Yugioh, but his theory is garbage 90% of the time.

I fully expected you to break this deck out of nowhere. 

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+ACP+    33889

I don't think it's possible. In today's games, Gishkill would need at least an 80% FTK rate to be even viable. Mermail's spamming a bunch of Toads t1 is a better "FTK deck" than Gishki.

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+mark    2935
3 hours ago, Starlight Warrior said:

Perhaps.  Still, it can't be that hard, can it?  I mean, is he trying to learn every single combination of every single card?  Wouldn't it be better to just learn a few guiding principles of strategic YGO and card advantage/utility, and learn how to wing it in a duel?  Why spend three months learning a deck in and out when it's so much easier, and just as effective, to just learn strategy?


Time constraints and memes aside, if you really play to win, you can think of it this way:

- Learning a deck to the point where you always know what to do means you won't misplay, and have more time to think and make accurate decisions
- By the time you become actually 'good' with a deck, 'time' will be your enemy. The only ways to beat time (besides adjusting your strategy to it), is to play lightning fast, and to call your judge when your opponent misplays. In order to play lightning fast but accurate at the same time, the more experience you have, the better, so you don't actually have to think about what to do
- Knowing all rulings can provide you an advantage
- Knowing what to do in difficult situations that don't come up frequently will provide you an advantage
- Testing specifically against each match-up, and when you know exactly what to do/side against the top decks, testing against the rogue decks as well will provide an advantage
- By playing this much, you will know where the problems in your deck lie, so you will be able to come up with solutions, test them, and overall optimize your deck 


Like a lot of this is 80/20 theory though, all these things won't come up a lot of the time, but yeah if you have the time and want to grab every edge you can get, then why not. 
 

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9 hours ago, DarkBlaze557 said:

 

"Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."

 

Wouldn't getting it right also include not getting it wrong?

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+ACP+    33889

"new account, who dis?"

 

In all seriousness, I don't think he's a multi. Let's not scare our new members off, guys.

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wonderPreaux    1432
1 hour ago, Starlight Warrior said:

 

Wouldn't getting it right also include not getting it wrong?

I think what mark is getting at is that there is a difference between doing something effectually versus doing something optimally. If you made a concerted effort, you could probably memorize all the basic comboes and and a generic sideboard guide for a deck, for instance, and then play it effectually within a day. However, until you get enough time observing and initiating all sorts of less-likely or deeply informative interactions, you might not be able to distinguish the best among many viable plays or craft a highly effective sidedeck scheme.

 

Basically, the rough concepts probably come easy, but the polished and refined edges will take you way more time. Granted, idk that it takes a full time job to do it, but it's short-sighted of you to assume basic literacy is the only barrier to you learning how to wrangle your text-rectangles better than the rest.

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