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banefulscolumn

Goat Format Semi-Staples: This vs. That (Which was better?)

5 posts in this topic

I'd be curious for your opinion in cases with two good cards that are used for a similar purpose.  For boss monsters, do you prefer Jinzo's strength/aggro, Vampire Lord's survivability or Airknight Parshath's punishment and card advantage?  Are any other LV5-6 monsters appealing to you?  As far as the remaining monsters to round out the count, how would you rate the big beaters: D.D. Assailant, Exarion Universe, Berserk Gorilla?  For the small control options, how do you decide between Tsukuyomi vs. Spirit Reaper.  For resources, the relatively strong and versatile Dekoichi, or the weak but graveyard-friendly Magical Merchant?  On Spells, is Book of Moon a staple for you?  If not, what do you find to be better than it?  To round out the trap line-up, do you prefer Sakuretsu Armor or Bottomless Trap Hole for removal, and for control do you prefer Trap Dustshoot or Dust Tornado?

 

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Almost every question here depends on what deck you're building.

Jinzo is better for a deck trying to make big pushes, Vampire Lord is only playable when you're tutoring him with Pyramid Turtle, and Airknight is a light monster which matters a lot for the standard goat deck. Zaborg and Mobius both have their places, as does some more brewy stuff like DMoC, Sacred Phoenix, or The Creator.

 

Exarion > Assailant = Abyss Soldier >= Gorilla. Exarion and Assailant don't die to Tsuk attacks, which is huge. The main reason to play Gorilla is the prevalence of Exarion.

 

Reaper is pretty bad if you're playing with Exarion in the format, so it's usually not a consideration. Tsuk is also the card the goat deck is built around in a lot of ways, which makes it pretty easy to justify running a 2nd copy. Outside of that deck though, Tsuk isn't usually a consideration unless you're trying to abuse flip effects, or desperately need more outs to TER. When I boarded in Tsuk in Zoo, I was always also boarding in Dekoichis which boosted the ceiling of the deck, as well as gave me more outs to TER. 

 

Merchant being a light and level 1 is the reason people play it in the standard goat deck, but Dekoichi is the much more powerful standalone card if you don't care about that. Having attack points is way bigger than most people realize in goat.

 

The only s/ts I'd call "staple" are Pot, Grace, Duo, Mirror, and Torrential. Everything else is a potential cut depending on what you're building. It all depends on what you're worried about. Book of Moon does a lot, it's one of the more versatile cards in the format, but if you're trying to beat your opponent down fast you probably don't want to be spending a card to just flip a monster down that you'll need to use an attack to get over. 

 

Bottomless doesn't answer Tsuk or TER, which makes it unplayable in the main deck imo. Both Dustshoot and Dust Tornado have their place, fill completely different roles and I'm not sure why you're asking which we prefer as the only thing similar about them is the string "Dust" in their names. 

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1 hour ago, banefulscolumn said:

I'd be curious for your opinion in cases with two good cards that are used for a similar purpose.  For boss monsters, do you prefer Jinzo's strength/aggro, Vampire Lord's survivability or Airknight Parshath's punishment and card advantage?  Are any other LV5-6 monsters appealing to you?  As far as the remaining monsters to round out the count, how would you rate the big beaters: D.D. Assailant, Exarion Universe, Berserk Gorilla?  For the small control options, how do you decide between Tsukuyomi vs. Spirit Reaper.  For resources, the relatively strong and versatile Dekoichi, or the weak but graveyard-friendly Magical Merchant?  On Spells, is Book of Moon a staple for you?  If not, what do you find to be better than it?  To round out the trap line-up, do you prefer Sakuretsu Armor or Bottomless Trap Hole for removal, and for control do you prefer Trap Dustshoot or Dust Tornado?

 

Airknight, Exarion, Tsukuyomi, Merchant, Book of Moon, Sakuretsu Armor, Dust Tornado. These are considered the staples in a regular goat deck, which is considered the staple for the format. It is simply a combination of a large enough sample size to know this 'works', and it being discussed to death already in 

The more interesting discussion to have is the one pre-exarion, which also leaves for much choices to be made which I saw you was looking for in the other thread. Exarion disqualifies a lot of cards, which makes the format 'solved', but without it, all these cards become viable again. It is also considered to be better than exarion goats by most people on this site. 

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37 minutes ago, Bazaar of Baghdad said:

Vampire Lord is only playable when you're tutoring him with Pyramid Turtle

I think he was more popular in Goats back then than now.  With Zoo, Gorilla can ram into him, DDA can eliminate him and Abyss can bounce him.

 

The Creator.

How is he used?

 

 Exarion and Assailant don't die to Tsuk attacks, which is huge. The main reason to play Gorilla is the prevalence of Exarion.

Good point.  If not for Exarion, Gorilla would largely be a 1-of tech here and there and not something decks could use 3 of. 

 

37 minutes ago, Bazaar of Baghdad said:

 

Reaper is pretty bad if you're playing with Exarion in the format, so it's usually not a consideration.

Good point.  Exarion did a lot,

 

Having attack points is way bigger than most people realize in goat.

Yes.  Deko can force the opponent to activate Scapegoat.

 

The only s/ts I'd call "staple" are Pot, Grace, Duo, Mirror, and Torrential. Everything else is a potential cut depending on what you're building. 

MST and Snatch are staple.  Heavy, Ring, Mirror, and Premy have exceptions, but only outliers.  Probably 90% of people use NoC and a majority use Book.  Factor out rogue decks and the amount of staples goes up.

 

Both Dustshoot and Dust Tornado have their place, fill completely different roles and I'm not sure why you're asking which we prefer as the only thing similar about them is the string "Dust" in their names. 

No, it's because they're each others opportunity cost usually.  Most builds use Ring/Mirror/Torrential.  For removal, Sakuretsu often, or maybe Bottomless.  But to round out the line-up it's either Shoot or Tornado that crosses people's minds.  Yes, Solemn J, Skill Drain, Time Seal and such are great in their niches, but most Goat decks don't use them.

 

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Creator is used in the Monster Gate turbo deck that was kinda popularish 2-3 years ago.

 

Snatch is not a staple in Zoo, MST isn't a staple in the Burn maindeck (and strictly speaking, neither is Duo,) etc. If you ignore rogue decks the word "staple" loses it's meaning very quickly when you consider there are 2 or 3 top tier decks in the format, all with standard stock lists available. 

 

Your point on Dustshoot vs. Dust Tornado is not true at all Zoo, for example, plays both. Goat plays Dust Tornado because interacting with backrow is important, and Dustshoot is totally off plan for a deck that wants to play a long game. You play Dustshoot when you want to end games fast, and you play Dust Tornado when you need to deal with backrow efficiently. Some decks are trying to do both things, others aren't. 

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