Me.

Calculator

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Are there any restrictions on what you can calculate with a calculator during the duel?

 

Can I, for example, use it to calculate 1-  for some values of N,K,n?

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Slow play

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Obviously it could be slow play if you're slow to plug things in, but assuming I am fast enough, are there any restrictions on what I can calc?

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So the real question is are you allowed to calc things during a duel that hasn't got to do with LP and other in-game stuff that needs to be kept track of. 

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I'm saying if it doesn't have to do with the game then you're intentionally slowing down the game so yeah slow play either way 

 

(tournament guidelines for slow play include intentionally wasting time it doesnt matter if you waste time fast)

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Just now, rei said:

I'm saying if it doesn't have to do with the game then you're intentionally slowing down the game so yeah slow play either way 

 

(tournament guidelines for slow play include intentionally wasting time it doesnt matter if you waste time fast)

 

It would be to help me make a decision, same as adding up the attack of monsters in your extra deck before deciding if you want to summon them.

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The only mention of a calculator in the tournament guidelines is to keep score - I'm not sure if I should view this as a 'no calc use' or 'any calc use that isn't wasting time is ok'

- so at the veyr least make sure you have justification as opposed to doing arbitrary math 

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So I said this on discord as well but the only answer is 'ask your head judge'. And for the combining atk thing, the fact people do it doesn't mean they are actually allowed to do so, I mean you also have to shuffle your deck like 100x or something in multiple ways, but people don't do that either except during worlds. 

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In general, Konami has a "no note taking" rule iirc, and this would probably fall under note taking.

 

However, let me look into it a bit.

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As an HJ, if you waste my event's time by intentionally calculating something that has nothing to do with LP, something as visibly unimportant to the needs of my event as the equation you posted above, when I begin my investigation, I am going to not only consider you to possibly be playing slowly, but if so, also likely to be doing so while knowing that you should not be doing so.

I would have my scorekeeper assemble a set of DQ paperwork, because once my investigation is done, if I still surmise you are playing slowly while knowing you should not be, you will be recognized as committing a UC-Cheating infraction, the penalty for which is DQ.

Should you wish to calculate the probability of a specific set of cards showing up, or some other complex calculation beyond basic arithmetic for the sake of LP management, I'm going to have to ask you to either make quick mental calculations or go with your gut. I am not interested as an event runner in allowing calculation of anything at all on any calculator as an absolute right: everything needs to serve the needs of the event, and the event doesn't need you to have an absolute right to calculate anything on any calculator. It needs you to play briskly and stay on-task.

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11 hours ago, Me. said:

Obviously it could be slow play if you're slow to plug things in, but assuming I am fast enough, are there any restrictions on what I can calc?

Wasting my event's time quickly yet intentionally will earn you just as much of a DQ from me as wasting my event's time slowly yet intentionally.

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10 hours ago, Me. said:

 

It would be to help me make a decision, same as adding up the attack of monsters in your extra deck before deciding if you want to summon them.

It would be on you to explain how you aren't wasting my event's time - adding up monster ATKs in order to make a play decision is something I would consider a potentially acceptable use, though I would confer with my superiors for more info on how much or little leeway we're interested in giving for the sake of letting you use tool assistance and extra time on that decision as opposed to saying "you should be able and willing to do this in your head."

Hell, we may even surmise that a possible answer of "we insist you do it mentally" might come down b/c losing the game via misplay that was conducted after incorrectly adding values together might be a DESIRABLE form of loss via misplay. It depends on whether or not we want addition to BE one of the ways you can be worse or better at ygo.

However, that's just a side tangent example.

The equation in the OP is not adding up ATKs, it is something else. It will require a different explanation. I am listening, and I will be happy to say if I find it satisfactory or not.

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me. im gonna go to your event solely so i can crack this open and start reading it to you during my turn0001.jpg

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dont worry though i promise there is probably a differential equation for something ygo maybe

 

lets go on this journey and find out

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"Slow Play: This penalty is appropriate when a player unintentionally plays slowly, causing a minor delay in the Game. It is a player’s responsibility to play at a reasonable pace, regardless of how complex a situation may be." - Using a calculator can only be considered slow play if it causes you to play slower than you would otherwise. Players often take time to perform mental calculations before deciding on a play, and if anything the use of a calculator could easily cause you to play faster rather than slower. Probability equations (such as the one that you listed in the OP) are more than acceptable, as they are highly relevant to card game strategy. There is no reason that these calculations would not be allowed, as long as calculators themselves continue to be allowed.

 

 

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Atem has no idea what he's talking about, and thankfully he'll never actually head judge any relevant Yugioh events, as he'd probably end up DQing 90% of the participants before the tournament was over.

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ness00-Today at 8:15 PM

 
@Satchmo I'm too lazy to log in. The use of calculators is to do math, not to keep track of lifepoints. Remember this game includes kids as the target audience. They are used to keep track of LP because it is impossible to get players to bring pen & paper to an event. Rei has the simpliest answer: You can do more complex math, but you might end up slowing down the match by doing so. For something like combinatory math, you might have a function that computes this faster than doing it by hand so it shouldn't slow down the match. You then enter a gray area of "no electronics allowed" vs. "this is my calculator (in my phone!), no step on snek" it boils down to the usual "depends on the judge" with a side of "yes but hurry up"


this is one answer I got

another was similar to Atem's in that "it depends on intent and your intent probably isn't to calculate how likely it is they have Solemn, it's to slowplay"

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On 1/18/2017 at 3:14 AM, ACP said:

Atem has no idea what he's talking about, and thankfully he'll never actually head judge any relevant Yugioh events, as he'd probably end up DQing 90% of the participants before the tournament was over.

Maybe it's time such a thing actually happens because then we could finally have a top cut without half of them being cheaters, I don't get the hatred, I'd rather Atem judge a tournament than people who don't even know some basic rulings 

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When talking about things players can control regarding their interaction with adjudication and policy enforcement, many things boil to perceived intentions.

What I can say is that I can't think of any reason eventrunners would consider use of calculators for any mathematical purpose to be the interest of the event. For some purposes, of course, like making sure you deduct the correct amounts of damage and calculate ATK and DEF stats properly.

There's a difference between using a calculator to verify a calculation-that-has-to-be-right-to-preserve-the-gamestate's-integrity and using a calculator to help-you-make-a-gameplay-choice-that-doesn't-have-to-be-optimal-to-preserve-the-gamestate's-integrity.

Eventrunners care about the event's health first and foremost, prioritizing safety first, fairness second, and enjoyability third.

This means that if the enjoyability interests of someone using a calculator to help them make a choice 
1) isn't necessary to preserve the gamestate's health, and
2) doesn't look like it's actually helping make a choice, but is just burning time
then we reserve the right to say "put it away and get on with it, you are playing too slowly and the calculator crutch isn't helping."

Let's say someone's attacking you - then if you use a calc to make sure damage values are right, you're probably fine b/c that's necessary for gamestate integrity. You'd have to be REALLY slow in that particular case for us to think "he's being slow on purpose, print the paperwork."

Let's say you're just crunching numbers via the equation in the OP. Nothing in gameplay SEEMS to be going on that requires mathematical calculation, but you're doing it anyway. If you're even the slightest bit slow about it, we may well ask "what's going on here" and investigate - and depending on whether or not your investigation finds intentional stalling or unintentional slow play or nothing wrong at all, the infraction could be anything from UC-Cheating or SP-Minor or nothing at all.

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On 1/17/2017 at 9:40 AM, rei said:

I'm saying if it doesn't have to do with the game then you're intentionally slowing down the game so yeah slow play either way 

 

(tournament guidelines for slow play include intentionally wasting time it doesnt matter if you waste time fast)

not quite, ash

intentionally doing it means we DQ you on the first intentional offense and throw you out of the venue: intentionally doing it is UC-Cheating

SP-Minor, as allen said above, is only for unintentional cases

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was reading an outdated tournament doc that had a line that seemed to imply intent. Checked more recent version and its more clear that unintentional is a requirement for the warn 

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On 1/17/2017 at 9:09 PM, ACP said:

Using a calculator can only be considered slow play if it causes you to play slower than you would otherwise. Players often take time to perform mental calculations before deciding on a play, and if anything the use of a calculator could easily cause you to play faster rather than slower. Probability equations (such as the one that you listed in the OP) are more than acceptable, as they are highly relevant to card game strategy. There is no reason that these calculations would not be allowed, as long as calculators themselves continue to be allowed.


If it is indeed a probability equation, sure, but it would be on him to make that argument to us when we investigate, and he would be expected to calculate and make a play decision as promptly as we find appropriate regardless of whether or not he is using a probability equation. How relevant a calculation is does not dictate how necessary one is: necessity is dictated by game rules, not by player desires and wishes. Players *want* to make optimal plays, but I *must* enforce policy in a way that knows when to accomodate those wants and when to say "you're still not going fast enough, and I think the calculator is slowing you down this time". (If one cannot consistently make optimal plays without machine aid, and/or cannot consistently use that machine aid quickly enough to evade all potential SP-Minors, then one is not entitled to make optimal plays consistently: policy comes before entitlement to consistent-perfection-in-defiance-of-policy-enforcement.)

Playing well within the bounds established by adjudication is what it means to be good as far as the game's runners are concerned: not just optimum play, but optimum play within the bounds set by policy.

This means that it is possible for him to compute and decide as quickly as he physically can and STILL commit SP-Minor.

This also means it is possible for him to compute and decide slightly slower than that and NOT commit SP-Minor.

It is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and the beholders are the judges patrolling your event aisles.

SP-Minor doesn't care for whether or not you "play slower than you would otherwise", it cares solely for whether or not your present speed is unacceptable to an eventrunning observer. It is our perception as observer who feels "that was a little slow" or not that sanctions our writing the circumstance down as SP-Minor or not. It's why SP-Minor merits a Warning on the first offense.


The OP asks if there are any restrictions on what one may calculate.

The restrictions are "don't earn SP-Minor or UC-Cheating in doing so".

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8 minutes ago, rei said:

was reading an outdated tournament doc that had a line that seemed to imply intent. Checked more recent version and its more clear that unintentional is a requirement for the warn 

we will return you to the black&white yet

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Could this be considered from another angle?

Not all calculators can use this function. The calculators that contain functions such as this tend to be expensive, as a side note.

Thus, players without those particular calculators are naturally prohibited from this advantage. Using the function would provide an advantage because you own something extra compared to your opponent (outside of different pieces of cardboard). Such tools that give an advantage should not be allowed.

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So, if you made a play, and your opponent is taking time thinking about whether they want to respond or not, you can use that time to do calculations? I also think that the calculations mentioned in OP only take about 5 sec because you can put them into your calculator beforehand, and you'll only have to fill in 2 variables then hit enter I to get your result. I think thinking the play through could take longer.... like a minute? So it's actually faster, although i don't know if that makes a difference really. 

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