• Announcements

    • rei

      Battle of the Anime Characters   02/10/17

      THE BATTLE OF THE ANIME CHARACTERS HAS BEGUN   Find it here http://duelistgroundz.com/index.php?/forum/615-battle-of-the-anime-x/
NB96

Zoodiac - Discussion

125 posts in this topic

soo, with sheep and fusion substitute u can draw 3 cards from normal summoning ur rat, and still end with drident + emeral with rats in deck 0.0

 

does anyone have a plan to counter that like maybe flying c or retaliating c or droll bird. i dont think u want to let ur opponent do that.

 

 

https://youtu.be/5ZVrFI4lojU?t=2054

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, buckwheatloaf said:

soo, with sheep and fusion substitute u can draw 3 cards from normal summoning ur rat, and still end with drident + emeral with rats in deck 0.0

 

does anyone have a plan to counter that like maybe flying c or retaliating c or droll bird. i dont think u want to let ur opponent do that.

 

 

https://youtu.be/5ZVrFI4lojU?t=2054

 

You could D.D Crow the first rat target off of the first Emeral.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

D.D. Crow does seem like the best way to disrupt the Norden combo with Fusion Substitute. The main issue that I see with this, is that if they opened Barrage, they can still end with Drident. I don't feel Droll would do enough. The other option would be Cherries to banish Emeral or Drident. There aren't really any other good rank 4 options outside Emeral after going off, so it would put them in an odd position and they are less likely to read you have it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what about retaliating? doesn't the rat under emeral get banished, along with all the xyzs, and fusion sub gets banished too so they cant recover from it as easily. also it could search you a maxx c/flying c or just be used for a rank 4 material. seems like it is better than d.d. crow vs fusion sub, and also better vs eidolons or foes. 

 

doesn't terrortop also help them end with drident too, since they could just overlay to invoker after the d.d crow and make a broadbull, get a seach, get a draw from fusion sub, and have drident? you could ofc d.d. crow at a different time to make it hurt more. but you could also use leviar and then terrortop would be even better vs d.d. crow. 

 

thats why i feel like d.d. crow might not be any more reliable vs fusion sub than flying c. 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Warthog said:

D.D. Crow does seem like the best way to disrupt the Norden combo with Fusion Substitute. The main issue that I see with this, is that if they opened Barrage, they can still end with Drident. I don't feel Droll would do enough. The other option would be Cherries to banish Emeral or Drident. There aren't really any other good rank 4 options outside Emeral after going off, so it would put them in an odd position and they are less likely to read you have it.

 

7 hours ago, buckwheatloaf said:

what about retaliating? doesn't the rat under emeral get banished, along with all the xyzs, and fusion sub gets banished too so they cant recover from it as easily. also it could search you a maxx c/flying c or just be used for a rank 4 material. seems like it is better than d.d. crow vs fusion sub, and also better vs eidolons or foes. 

 

doesn't terrortop also help them end with drident too, since they could just overlay to invoker after the d.d crow and make a broadbull, get a seach, get a draw from fusion sub, and have drident? you could ofc d.d. crow at a different time to make it hurt more. but you could also use leviar and then terrortop would be even better vs d.d. crow. 

 

thats why i feel like d.d. crow might not be any more reliable vs fusion sub than flying c. 

 

 

I don't think either of those options are bad but out of the 3 (Ghost Reaper, Crow, Retaliating) Crow seems the most versatile. Crow hits Paleo traps, Infernoids, Kaiju Slumber (in grave), Zoodiac combo, standard rat play, Invocation, plus rouge options like D/D/D, ABC, Shaddoll Fusion, Lawnmowing varients (Mezuki, Plague, Malicious, Snow). I feel the wide use of crow is what separates it from the other two. The other options may be better in other situations but versatility is more valuable in my opinion. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why?

 

why are you hurting so much for options against all of those decks? shouldn't you already have better side cards than crow for most of those matchups anyways?

 

i don't understand why people will take a card that might increase all your matchups post-sided by 1-2% over a card that outright wins the game when you resolve it in one matchup (+13-33%)

 

isn't the point of a sidedeck that you don't need the cards to be good in every matchup?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, mmf said:

why?

 

why are you hurting so much for options against all of those decks? shouldn't you already have better side cards than crow for most of those matchups anyways?

 

i don't understand why people will take a card that might increase all your matchups post-sided by 1-2% over a card that outright wins the game when you resolve it in one matchup (+13-33%)

 

isn't the point of a sidedeck that you don't need the cards to be good in every matchup?

 

I'm not hurting, buckwheatloaf asked for ideas on how to counter the combo and I mentioned crow as an option because it hurt that combo as well as being effective against other things in the meta. It seems like a decent main decked option. 

 

Also, what is the card you are talking about?

Edited by Zeppelin
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my testing, D.D. Crow has been the better of the hand traps (besides Maxx "C" ofc) to stop the Fusion Substitute combo.

At what point would be the best time to use Crow when they're doing the Fusion Substitute combo though?

 

You could do it on the first Emeral's effect but they can still play Fusion Substitute to make a second Emeral and get 2 draws from that (1 from Emeral and 1 from the Sub's effect to draw).

 

You could also do it when they use Norden's effect to summon back the Rat. That would leave them with only a Norden face-up on the field (unless they had Barrage) at the end phase. The downside to that is that they still got the initial draw off the Emeral, and they will get a second draw from the Fusion Substitute when Norden inevitably ends up in the graveyard. 

 

Obviously the best time to do it is if they go down the path of making Broadbull as the second xyz and then have to later reattach the Ratpier using Tigermortar. The problem with that though is that they can play around it by making Tigermortar as the second xyz instead of bull.

Making the Broadbull as the second xyz seems like the way most people are doing the combo at the moment though.

Going down that path means you get to put back bull with the first Emeral which is a big deal considering that going down the other path (making tiger as the second xyz) means you run the risk of losing both bulls if your Emeral doesn't survive the turn (assuming you didn't get to put Combo into the grave of course) 

 

I guess the positive of each of these is that they can no longer do the rat combo at any stage of the game, which is very good for us. If they have real backrow though there's a good chance you're still losing that game anyway unfortunately. 

 

On a side note, good luck to all the duelists playing at the 3 events happening this weekend (Prague, Guatemala and UDS Vegas). Hopefully you can find a way to deal with the Lunalight combo so that us in the third-world countries don't have to ^^

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Alyxander said:

In my testing, D.D. Crow has been the better of the hand traps (besides Maxx "C" ofc) to stop the Fusion Substitute combo.

At what point would be the best time to use Crow when they're doing the Fusion Substitute combo though?

 

You could do it on the first Emeral's effect but they can still play Fusion Substitute to make a second Emeral and get 2 draws from that (1 from Emeral and 1 from the Sub's effect to draw).

 

You could also do it when they use Norden's effect to summon back the Rat. That would leave them with only a Norden face-up on the field (unless they had Barrage) at the end phase. The downside to that is that they still got the initial draw off the Emeral, and they will get a second draw from the Fusion Substitute when Norden inevitably ends up in the graveyard. 

 

Obviously the best time to do it is if they go down the path of making Broadbull as the second xyz and then have to later reattach the Ratpier using Tigermortar. The problem with that though is that they can play around it by making Tigermortar as the second xyz instead of bull.

Making the Broadbull as the second xyz seems like the way most people are doing the combo at the moment though.

Going down that path means you get to put back bull with the first Emeral which is a big deal considering that going down the other path (making tiger as the second xyz) means you run the risk of losing both bulls if your Emeral doesn't survive the turn (assuming you didn't get to put Combo into the grave of course) 

 

I guess the positive of each of these is that they can no longer do the rat combo at any stage of the game, which is very good for us. If they have real backrow though there's a good chance you're still losing that game anyway unfortunately. 

 

On a side note, good luck to all the duelists playing at the 3 events happening this weekend (Prague, Guatemala and UDS Vegas). Hopefully you can find a way to deal with the Lunalight combo so that us in the third-world countries don't have to ^^

 

 

NS rat

XYZ boarbow
SS rat#2

XYZ tiger over rat#2
SS rat#3
xyz Broadbull over rat #3, search substitute
Fusion for norden using boarbow and tiger, and continue

 

So, you will end with drancia even if they crow you, but you ll draw 2 instead of 3 if everything went well.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my testing, D.D. Crow has been the better of the hand traps 

i dont get how testing has a lot to do with it when ur talking about a specific hand traps ability to stop a specific play >_>

 

i feel like ppl get more comfort from d.d crow and would be embarrassed to main retaliating c just because hes weird : ( 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

i really hope ppl at the ycs actually uses hand traps and not just all goes into it and believes you have to go first and draw 3 or lose lol. 

 

2 d.d crow and 2 maxx c from the arg was extremely low on the hand traps. if u looked at tcg lists you would believe there was some rule that says you cant main more than 4 total and that gosr was semi limted. meanwhile the ocg mains as many as 10-11 hand traps, always used 3 gosr, and they dont even have the option to use retaliating or d.d. crow. they were also never up against a draw 3 combo but they still decided that many hand traps was needed. 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wduartes said:

NS rat

XYZ boarbow
SS rat#2

XYZ tiger over rat#2
SS rat#3
xyz Broadbull over rat #3, search substitute
Fusion for norden using boarbow and tiger, and continue

 

So, you will end with drancia even if they crow you, but you ll draw 2 instead of 3 if everything went well.

 

Can't you just crow the Norden target at that point? Then you leave them with just a Drancia and 1 draw off of the fusion substitute, if Norden eventually gets sent to the graveyard that is. I believe I read this right. Also if you take this path it leaves you weak to maxx c. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we're talking first turn, this doesn't apply to all decks but you can play PSY Framegear Gamma to negate and destroy their monsters, and it doubles up as LIGHT fodder for Mechaba.

 

Invoked can also play Empowerment to dump dead cards, so you can go Dragodies into Broadbull into Beast Warrior searches, plus searching the Sub with Sheep means you can negate Spells with Mechaba, in addition to monster effects.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zeppelin said:

 

Can't you just crow the Norden target at that point? Then you leave them with just a Drancia and 1 draw off of the fusion substitute, if Norden eventually gets sent to the graveyard that is. I believe I read this right. Also if you take this path it leaves you weak to maxx c. 

pick you poison. I guess there is no way to avoid Crow AND maxx C.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So back to back wins for Paleo, time to switch up priorities? 

 

Right now we are probably the most consistent of the top decks but what we have in consistency we lack in power in comparison to Infernoid or Paleo. With that being said I think the main focus of the side should be those two decks. Paleo can out grind us and Infernoid can overpower us early, the lunalight combo gives us a chance against these decks but its not a auto win like it is against the rest of the decks in the meta. So lets look into the options.

 

***The below will assume running a pure zoo build***

 

-Artifact Lancia - decent against infernoid and decent against invoked although I think the biggest thing hurting this card right now is the fact it can only be used on your opponents turn. I am not so sure this is a auto include in the side, or even warranted at all  

 

-D.D Crow - This has obviously been a topic of discussion here recently. This is very good against Paleo and Infernoid (being able to hit the big noids, paleo's and even lost winds can be very crucial) It is also good against Invoked (being able to banish the invocation can halt the momentum), and of course stops the fusion substitute combo. I know other people in this thread have mixed opinions on this card but I think this is a auto include in the side as either a 2 or 3 of. 

 

-Royal Decree - I don't know if I am missing something here or not but this card seems like it could be a blowout against Paleo (Am I missing something?)

 

-Flying C - I feel this card has some merits, yes I know barrage and chalice are a thing that doesn't mean your opponent will always have it. It is probably a decent complimentary card to the other hand traps, I wouldn't play it over the other ones but along side it I think its ok. 


Mirror Forces (Quaking, Storming, Old School) - I think these cards are solid side choices especially in conjunction with the below card. These out anti meta cards like Vanity's Fiend, El Shaddoll Winda, Crystal Wing, Kagutsuchi, Minerva. I think these are a nice general coverage card

 

Now these last two have both been used but in my opinion not enough players are playing them. 

 

Fossil Dyna - This card is such a pain in the ass for any fairytailsnow.dek which also includes 60 card infernoid, very good against Paleo. This should also be a instant side considering it is strongest against our two worst matchups

 

Soul Release - I know Max Reynolds sided this in Seattle and I thought this was an awesome pick, another one of those cards that can be a complete blowout against our two worst matchups.

 

Any thoughts? 

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think Infernoid/Palezoic 60-card builds will start taking up a large part of the meta, and you want to sacrifice consistency for power, I'd look into playing over 40 cards, you're making That Grass worse by giving them worse mills 'on default'. Even with 12 copies of Ratpier, though, you'll still face trouble when you go this approach, so the entire build would have to be streamlined for it to make it work (such as, playing as much drawcards as possible, higher deck counts means Pot of Desires becomes more viable, maybe Upstart Goblin/Into the Void etc. as well although the latter conflicts with hand traps obviously). If you were to play 55 cards with these 7 draw spells, you'll still draw 1 of your 12 Ratpiers about every 3 in 4 games, but you're pretty much auto-winning any That Grass matchup. This strategy makes your overall Zoodiac match-up worse, but it also means you can dedicate your entire maindeck and side deck to combatting the mirror and every 40-card matchup, since you're already at such a big advantage versus those other decks already.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

-Royal Decree - I don't know if I am missing something here or not but this card seems like it could be a blowout against Paleo (Am I missing something?)

 

 

you are missing something

 

activate trap card with decree on field

chain paleozoic from grave

and then they just do that until they anomalocaris the decree

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, mark said:

If you think Infernoid/Palezoic 60-card builds will start taking up a large part of the meta, and you want to sacrifice consistency for power, I'd look into playing over 40 cards, you're making That Grass worse by giving them worse mills 'on default'. Even with 12 copies of Ratpier, though, you'll still face trouble when you go this approach, so the entire build would have to be streamlined for it to make it work (such as, playing as much drawcards as possible, higher deck counts means Pot of Desires becomes more viable, maybe Upstart Goblin/Into the Void etc. as well although the latter conflicts with hand traps obviously). If you were to play 55 cards with these 7 draw spells, you'll still draw 1 of your 12 Ratpiers about every 3 in 4 games, but you're pretty much auto-winning any That Grass matchup. This strategy makes your overall Zoodiac match-up worse, but it also means you can dedicate your entire maindeck and side deck to combatting the mirror and every 40-card matchup, since you're already at such a big advantage versus those other decks already.

 

Yeah valid argument, although I don't really know any other engine or cards you would want to add to make the deck that big. On second thought you could add the artifact and kaiju engine in, this helps alleviate the lawnmowing problem while also decreasing your chances of drawing your bricks such as scythes, taketomborg or kaiju's. 

 

18 minutes ago, mmf said:

 

you are missing something

 

activate trap card with decree on field

chain paleozoic from grave

and then they just do that until they anomalocaris the decree

 

Yep, thanks, my comprehension skills are not what they once were. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

still not the worst card against them though, it's just not the auto-win-if-resolved that denko is

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mmf said:

still not the worst card against them though, it's just not the auto-win-if-resolved that denko is

 

If you flip decree and have a few chain links to disrupt their plays, it pretty close to auto-win. Obviously not nearly good enough as denko in zoodiac, but zoodiac definitely has the chain links to support it between drident, whiptail and hand traps. I think the question is if you should be siding more blow-out cards than just denko, and in that case if decree is the best one (it's definitely up there).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Zoodiacs could be like Dragon Rulers and even with the banlist hit (think Babies, then 3 Rulers -> 1 of each, they still were topping in so many ways, Lightsworn, Hieratics, Mythic Dragons, so on), we will see them re-imagined and still be top tier. 

 

At a cursory glance, the fact that you can turn off Imperial Order with Drident is a selling point for this deck + Metalfoes over other decks.

 

You also have XYZ Reborn which makes Drident like Artifact Sanctum, which is pretty significant, and you can search it and others with Generation Force, e.g. XYZ Universe.

 

XYZ Universe -> 1st turn Kali Yuga for Paleozoics

 

Other points to consider, since you have 1 card XYZ:

 

  • You can go into Broadbull/Drancia, then play Astral Force for Shogi Rook to destroy 2 more cards (so that's a huge 4 card swing), or Limited Barian's Force (any Rank 4 XYZ), to go into C69 which has 4000 ATK or C101, etc. and especially if we can play Full Armored Crystalzero Lancer, which we are getting in Duelist Saga March 30th (finally!). There are some other good XYZ as well, like that C102 which can protect itself and burn for 1500 (addresses the Raigeki, Dark Hole, Slumber), or destroying a S/T with one of the others, with 3000 ATK body. C104
  • You also have Naturia Barkion and Beast access, and ETele + Recover, matters since you stack your XYZ and get in range for Recover. Going Naturia Beast + Drancia, protected with backrow is pretty good.

----------------------------

 

Going back to the cards that were discussed when Zoodiacs were first announced:

 

Tensu is a card, and there's somebody that can break Masked Chameleon.

 

Also, Black Garden since Thoroughblade is 1600 ATK and Bunnyblast is 800 ATK.

 

You use Ratpier to dump Bunny and that's your combo, right?

 

300?cb=20141027134243

 

(Again people write off Black Garden as gimmicky, but this is the best deck that has ever had the relevant stats for it).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had also seen a suggestion of 2 resort 2 SPYRAL super agent. Now this is gimmicky but in a format where full backrow is a thing; a free summonable 1900 Beater that can't be targeted seems kind of cool. Also it helps shuffle back your zoo XYZ monsters keeping a constant stream of broadbull searches and 1 card drident overlays.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, victor said:

^ For point of reference, somebody did recently top 4 a Regional with Zoodiac Spyrals but that deck had a lot of uncommon card choices, and carried by Lullaby or Rank Up 7th One.

 

http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=107314

http://yugiohtopdecks.com/deck/6043

 

E.g. putting back Taketomborg is interesting.

 

It's the same guy that top 32'd NAWCQ with madolche in dragon ruler/spellbook format.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now