muh 100 godzillion

arg ac shitpost

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how is buckwheatloaf not baned is beyond me lol like literally a year ago since he started posting like this

 

rip dgzs glory days 

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i just like talking about deck ideas and stuff sometimes and especially infernoids my favorite deck and having fun about it. and there used to be some people here that liked to talk about things instead of just come around to downvote me because my post contained the letters "o" "c" and "g" together.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You guys! I did it! I found the perfect solution! Instead of having buckwheatloaf post his ideas, we can find his ideas ourselves by following a simple algoritm. See the flowchart below.

 

buckwheat.png

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1 hour ago, buckwheatloaf said:

 i just like talking about deck ideas and stuff sometimes and especially infernoids my favorite deck and having fun about it. and there used to be some people here that liked to talk about things instead of just come around to downvote me because my post contained the letters "o" "c" and "g" together.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, it doesn't have to do with you discussing yugioh or bringing up the OCG. It has everything to do with you going crazy over literally 1 neg rep, I mean calm down. You could've kept the discussion going and ignored it, why don't you try that next time. There are school shooters who win YCS's, so a few people giving you shit for the markus thing is no excuse for you to give up. You deserve it, but it's best to just ignore it in your case and focus on what you're here to talk about. 

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There's nothing wrong with looking to the OCG for inspiration, but making the argument that "The OCG didn't play it, so it must be bad." Is horribly ignorant.

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9 hours ago, Squiddy said:

how is buckwheatloaf not baned is beyond me lol like literally a year ago since he started posting like this

 

rip dgzs glory days 

he keeps posting which baits people into responding, which generates activity

 

I mean look how many posts this thread gained by me calling him retarded? It's literally free and will hopefully partially reform him by the end of the day.

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the ocg results gives us a huge amount of data about the next format and whats working for them. im not saying they dont miss things sometimes, but their decks usually evolve and change a lot and it feels like they constantly try new and different things. there's a lot of stuff being tried in successful ocg lists usually, so i just find it suspicious when they've tried ALL these things, and got success with them, but not the idea that you're suggesting. 

 

i am biased to trust their their data since its actual data from dozens of real events by competitive players instead of just wild speculative theory by people who dont even play yugioh very much.

 

but i always wanna know the reasons behind why something is working for them. if we just copied the ocg without understanding it that obviously wouldn't help us. 

 

 

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When an entire country collectively decides that into the void is better than upstart goblin, I would be very skeptical about trusting anything coming from there.

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thats because you dont understand it.

 

void imagination is a otk with ntss. you nuke the field with ntss, ss 2x seit and 1x attondel you dumped with imagination, and thats 8100 damage with absolute and meteorburst. it could also happen by getting a huge mill with grass too. i've watched a lot of ocg matches and seen it pulled off numerous times.the otk is important because u can win right on that turn, even thru  maxx c, and not have to cope with surviving the push back by zodiacs.  thats what mainly made upstart not desirable to them. while into the void could give madness a bit more consistency. 

 

 

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Just now, buckwheatloaf said:

thats because you dont understand it.

 

void imagination is a otk with ntss. you nuke the field with ntss, 2x seit and 1x attondel you dumped with imagination, and thats 8100 damage with absolute and meteorburst. it could also happen by getting a huge mill too. i've watched a lot of ocg matches and seen it pulled off numerous times.the otk is important because u can win right on that turn, even thru  maxx c, and not have to cope with surviving the push back by zodiacs.  thats what mainly made upstart not desirable to them. while into the void could give madness a bit more consistency. 

 

 

 

sorry for not specifying. I did not mean in relation to infernoid at all, but rather across all of yu-gi-oh history.

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alright, so I got this in a pm I can't bring myself to keep such a gem to myself

Just now, buckwheatloaf said:

they have played upstart a lot in some decks like darklords and d/d/d. 

 

for most decks upstart isn't good because if you're using upstarts then i'll just use some card that gives me a edge in the mirror match. you have 0 space for it but i have 3 in my maindeck now, and that comparative advantage is more valuable than the consistency from upstart (and higher change to see broken 1-ofs).  

 

i think for many cases upstart can be traded for something else that is better at that particular event to help you. every tcg player has put upstarts into their decks because it was a easy way to improve the deck and they could be sure it helped their deck in some ways. but the life point cost of upstart has never truly been quantified but just brushed aside by the mob mentality that thinks its smart to value consistency over life points. i think the biggest reason why upstart was used so much was it made people feel smart to use and they were conforming to what the smart people did.

 

the ocg didn't fall for this because they're a bit smarter about stuff overall. i think they only used upstart where it was truly a good call, and regarded it with the skepticism it deserved everywhere else. 

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What he's saying in that PM is actually true though. 99% of yugioh players could not even correctly explain why Upstart was good and belonged in certain decks but not others. To use an example of the last format that I played, most people had a very difficult time catching on to the fact that Upstart was a 3-of staple in Domain Monarchs but an awful choice in most PePe decks. The Yugioh community did not one day wake up collectively realize that Upstart deserved to see more play; they just listened to a few good players on blind faith. I mean it's 2017 and Monahan still cannot even define the word "consistency". Chapin's Next Level Magic talks a lot about information cascades, and they've become a lot more common in Yugioh. No one other than a handful of people really know anything anymore. They just follow the lead of the few players who actually define the meta.

 

Now none of this stuff about Upstart has anything to do with the OCG. They have information cascades just like we do, only different ones. 99% of OCG players are terrible just the same way that 99% of TCG players are terrible. I mean when Card Trooper was literally the best card in Yugioh back in 2007, the OCG thought the card was near unplayable. However. the OCG is generally more creative than us, which is why they do better at events that reward creativity, like worlds.

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1 hour ago, buckwheatloaf said:

the ocg results gives us a huge amount of data about the next format and whats working for them. im not saying they dont miss things sometimes, but their decks usually evolve and change a lot and it feels like they constantly try new and different things. there's a lot of stuff being tried in successful ocg lists usually, so i just find it suspicious when they've tried ALL these things, and got success with them, but not the idea that you're suggesting. 

 

i am biased to trust their their data since its actual data from dozens of real events by competitive players instead of just wild speculative theory by people who dont even play yugioh very much.

 

but i always wanna know the reasons behind why something is working for them. if we just copied the ocg without understanding it that obviously wouldn't help us. 

 

It's not even about just missing things. Trial and error is incredibly good at finding a local maxima, but there's no guarantee that local maxima it's optimizing for is the global max. "Wild speculative theory" is how you introduce new information into the trial and error to jump around the curve, and maybe you jump to find a point higher on the curve than the previous local max, or maybe you jump to a point on the curve that is currently lower, but has a higher local ceiling when properly optimized. Making these jumps is the difference between building decks, and optimizing decks, and there's so much space to build decks that it's insane to think it has been totally exhausted in just a few months. When people go back to goat format, we still find space for improvements 12 years after the fact, and the card pool for that format is a small fraction of the legal card pool currently.

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rofl, what if buckwheats posts were actually like that pm

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4 hours ago, ACP said:

What he's saying in that PM is actually true though. 99% of yugioh players could not even correctly explain why Upstart was good and belonged in certain decks but not others. To use an example of the last format that I played, most people had a very difficult time catching on to the fact that Upstart was a 3-of staple in Domain Monarchs but an awful choice in most PePe decks. The Yugioh community did not one day wake up collectively realize that Upstart deserved to see more play; they just listened to a few good players on blind faith. I mean it's 2017 and Monahan still cannot even define the word "consistency". Chapin's Next Level Magic talks a lot about information cascades, and they've become a lot more common in Yugioh. No one other than a handful of people really know anything anymore. They just follow the lead of the few players who actually define the meta.

 

Now none of this stuff about Upstart has anything to do with the OCG. They have information cascades just like we do, only different ones. 99% of OCG players are terrible just the same way that 99% of TCG players are terrible. I mean when Card Trooper was literally the best card in Yugioh back in 2007, the OCG thought the card was near unplayable. However. the OCG is generally more creative than us, which is why they do better at events that reward creativity, like worlds.

 

What made Upstart Goblin a bad choice in PePe?

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Because the deck was already very consistent, it was an options focused deck, and it tried to output large swaths of damage in a single turn. It's the same reason that you wouldn't play Upstart in TeleDAD.

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People who say Upstart Goblin is only played for consistency clearly don't know what they're talking about at all. People who say that playing it means you don't have enough room to play your techs and therefore you are at a certain disadvantage against people who do, also do not know what they're talking about. It's also not about "seeing your powercards faster", because that's only part of the reason. You also cannot say "Upstart Goblin is good in format where LP doensn't matter, and bad in format where LP does matter", although it's at least closer to the truth. 


Upstart Goblin as a card, barring it's LP effect, should pretty much always be played, for a multitude of reasons. I'll give some example reasons here:

- Being able to use it before or after thinning your deck
- Not having to play bad cards into your deck, which would be worse than drawing any other card into your deck
- Lowering the odds of double drawing which in turn increases the odds of drawing combo-pieces together (I don't see people use this argument at all, but it has to do with Diminishing Returns. Basically if you play a 5-card deck with 5 pieces of Exodia you'd never double draw, but if you play a 15-card deck with 15 pieces you will double draw, which shows that the more cards you play the more likely you are to double draw even if the ratio's are the same - Upstart Goblin makes your deck smaller, )
- Being able to set it as a bluff S/T if needed
- Countering That Grass is Greener (Since you can essentially add 3 Upstart Goblin to your deck without cutting anything which will make the lose 3 mills - yes I know it's limited atm )
- Making your own That Grass is Greener and Pot of Desires stronger (more mills, and less odds of banishing searchable cards that you want to keep in your deck. Yes I understand that Upstart is a bad mill off of That Grass, but if the choice is between playing 59 or 60 with Upstart, then 60 with Upstart is better because you'll get 1 more mill every time you resolve That Grass, so if you mill a monster off of your additional mill it's good, but if you mill the Upstart Goblin it's neutral, so overall it is +EV). 

As you can see 'drawing into powercards' or 'increasing consistency' is not a reason, because these all fall under 'Not having to play bad cards into your deck, which would be worse than drawing any other card into your deck'. Saying that the cards you would add if you didn't play Upstart are actually better than the other cards you play also isn't an argument: because the mistake here is not knowing which cards of your deck are 'the worst cards'. Obviously, if you cut good cards to fit in Upstart, it will make your deck worse, so it requires a skill of detecting which cards of your deck are the worst to begin with.

The exception is if you're in a format where stuff like Naturia Beast / Anti-Spell Fragrance / Nekroz Trishula are being played, or if your deck specifically makes Upstart worse because you're playing mill cards or That Grass is Greener (and want to play 60-cards), and Upstart Goblin is a bad mill. The argument of "no room for techs" does not hold. For that argument to be true, you would need to play 60 cards and have such a large toolbox that you can search almost all of your deck at any time, while also needing all cards into your deck to the point where you literally cannot cut them, and the "needing all cards into your deck" would be more important than getting to draw into the good ones to begin with. This does not happen in reality.

Now, obviously, Upstart Goblin does have the LP restriction. This means it's a trade-off between the positive effects and the negative effects of the card. People started playing Upstart Goblin because they realized that, in certain strategies, you never win because you have 1000 LP more or less, but rather because of the cards you draw. Basically what this means, is that creating a strong opening board, or being able to out an opponent's board, etc. are way more important than having additional LP or not. This is not always true of course, but to find out if playing Upstart Goblin is optimal or not, you got to find out to what extend this is true, and then decide if the benefits outweigh the cons. 

What this basically comes down to is that Upstart Goblin is most likely bad in OTK or Beatdown decks, or formats where LP is a resource or where it matters, or in formats where stuff like Naturia Beast/Anti-Spell are being played. At the same time, it's most likely good in formats where drawing into certain combo's or cards decides the outcome of the match, and LP is not as relevant as drawing the right cards.



As for OCG vs not-OCG:

I kind of hate the way this argument is being presented. Bucketwheat was being called out for using the bias that "OCG doesn't use it, therefore it's bad", which now results into people arguing about whether or not you should look into the OCG, and it almost makes it look like people are saying you shouldn't. The same thing happens when someone uses the bias that "X doesn't work out in testing", which people point out isn't relevant, and which always result into some sort of theory vs practice debate. This is stupid. You should look at the OCG, see what works, and ask yourself why they do things, and see if you can get inspiration from it. It can save time and it can be a source of inspiration. You should also test decks etc, because practice makes perfect, and you'll see what works and what doesn't which saves you time as well. But you should also try to improve upon decks, and not be afraid to play a deck that you know is better than all other decks, because others don't play it. You will literally never be better than others if you only follow others, and actually people need to adapt a Pojo "Fuck netdeckers" mentality here, because some people actually do netdeck too much, which makes them miss out on coming up with good decks. But when you think about it, every time you netdeck OCG or a YCS top decklist, you're too late, because that decklist was created to beat the specific meta at that specific moment, and by the time you've copied it, people already have adapted. The people who topped have already switched decks or made changes in their decklist, while you're just playing their old decks "because it works". Not to mention Patrick Hoban has actually mentioned he saves ideas and intentionally uses weak decks so people will copy them (such as when he used Lightsworn Dragon Ruler while his teammates used Dragon Ruler, because they were saving the better Sylvan* deck for nats and topped with it), now before you say "that's just 1 person, lol", you're wrong: it's just 1 person who openly states he does it (if not more). It could very well be possible that a lot of people do this, I mean a lot of people have read his articles, so how do you know this is not the case? Also, if the TCG does this, how do you know the OCG doesn't do this as well? You may be copying bad OCG decks from some stupid regionals that these players don't give a fuck about - while they're saving their decks to destroy nats or worlds, and then the format will change and they'll play their bad decks again. Don't even get me started about OCG and TCG literally being different games with different card pools and different meta's.

 

edit: said Shaddoll earlier but ment to say Sylvan, when I talked about the nats deck. 

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upstart is only truly good when you wish your deck was like 30 cards. if you wish it was 35 cards you're not giving up much to not use it. pretty much the lower card count you believe is optimal for your deck, the better it is, ignoring the lp stuff. and its only rarely nowadays with all the hand traps that are needed to be mained, and with cards like barrier and strike and desires, that a decks optimal size is <30.

 

darklords is one of these exceptions. and if u go back far enough into the past when you didn't have desires and hand traps weren't nearly as powerful or needed, then you get to a time when life points supposedly mattered more and the new advantages to upstart like drawing after massive thinning (im not sure if this is really a good thing most of the time since it seems like a pretty big cost to give up the information of the 6th card to thin first) or its synergy with/against lawnmowing didn't exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If you play handtraps that's a solid argument against Upstart Goblin as well, I'll give you that. I also forgot another reason I initially wanted to mention that makes Upstart great:

You can only side 15 cards, so especially in a diverse meta, you want to see your side-decked cards as soon as possible. Maining drawcards such as Upstart means you draw into your side-deck cards faster, and while it's possible to side out Upstarts, it's probably optimal to only do that if you fear going into time, or if the match-up dictates it. You make it seem like the optimal decksize is around 30 or 35 cards, but I wonder if that's even the case. The optimal decksize is probably way lower, because in a 5-card deck you'd play Exodia, in a 15-card deck you'd probably still play some kind of FTK, in a 25-card deck you'd probably play either an OTK deck or some kind of auto-win T1 lock set-up. And these decks would probably be better than any other 40-card deck you could make at any given moment. Saying the optimal size of most decks is close to 40 isn't really true most of the time at all, and if we look at the current top decks for example:

Zoodiac only plays all copies of Tenki, Terrortop, etc. to guarantee opening Ratpier, but if you had to play 20 cards, you'd just play less of each. They play more traps to guarantee opening them, but if you could guarantee drawing your good ones only, you'd play less instead. Infernoid, if we're talking about the That Grass is Greener build, you'd want to play Upstart since it increases odds of seeing it, while it still keeps your deck big when you don't. In stuff like Paleozoic, you'd prefer to open your good Palezoic traps, or your Swap Frog combinations to make Toadally Awesome, or your good traps. So while there may be decks in which the optimal number is closer to 35-40, for most current decks that's definitely not the case at all. You have to look at decks like Dragon Rulers, Shaddolls or Yang Zing to find decks that go through all their in-deck resources, and need to summon or add like 10+ monsters from your deck per duel, before you start finding decks that actually benefit from having a bigger deck count. Saying 35 is optimal also isn't an argument against Upstart for what it's worth: if something is optimal it's optimal, and you should look at how 'worse' the other cards are you're adding and how much LP matters. You shouldn't look at how close to optimal you are or not: that's not what's relevant at all.

So basically hand traps are the biggest concern atm, but then again, it still depends. If you're maxing out on all the "good" hand traps already, then you now have to compare Upstart Goblin versus other traps or engine cards you could play. Upstart doesn't lower the odds of opening a handtrap, there's only the chance of drawing into your hand traps post-T1, but that doesn't mean they're bricks when you do. 

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