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d1n0man

Legality of poker games (Advice/ suggestions wanted)

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d1n0man    41

In short, online poker operators won't be allowed to offer service to Australia's as part of the Interactive Gambling Amendment Bill. Admittedly I should have played online Poker whilst I could, but being new to the game I didn’t want to register knowing that there would be a 99% chance we’d end up losing the battle. There's ways around this but I really don't have the time to be stuffing around on potentially shady sites just to face more trouble later down the track. Anyway, my reason for posting here was to get some ideas and seek clarity regarding this mock scenario where we draw comparison of a Poker tournament to a YGO one.

 

Assumptions: (Poker tournament)

  • None of those participating in/or hosting the tournament have any accreditation when it comes to the responsible service of gambling. This isn’t a requirement to host games but we’re just assuming that nobody has such qualifications.
  • No official license that permits the service of gambling is held at “x” establishment. In other words, much like our YGO comparison, this will be held at any old card shop.
  • An entry fee is required that goes directly to the prize pool; no form of rake is taken out of the entry fee for dealers/ those facilitating the tournament. Lastly, everyone is not a winner in this game, nor are the chips redeemable for physical cash whilst the tournament takes place.
  • The Dealer is a participant in the tournament… Although I entirely disagree with this, I’ve read that they have to take part in the game so I’m just running with it for now. Admittedly this is goes in conjunction when there’s a game of “private individuals” but I’m still using this assumption for the mock scenario.

Assumptions: (YGO tournament)

  • “X” establishment is a store where sanctioned events can, and have been run in the past.
  • Judges are present and have influence on ruling decisions; this will also include some participating players.
  • An entry fee is required that goes directly to the hosts; the prize pool itself is made up of boosters/ tins etc. And surprise, surprise, not everyone’s a winner in this game.

 

Questions: Most questions will relate to the document https://www.liquorandgaming.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/gaming-and-wagering/competitions/fs3001-poker-tournament.pdf 

  • With regards to this document, what would most likely class as a “private individual”? Am I to assume that private individuals are ones to play within the confines of their own homes or is the term to mean something different? I’m specifically relating this question to the part where I mention where the mock tournament is being hosted. Regardless of the scenarios assumptions regarding legality, even those who think they’re doing the right thing can be in the firing line http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-26/man-admits-illegal-poker-game-but-escapes-conviction/5346320 Truth be told, the document that stated the laws wasn’t even for my state due to the fact I couldn’t find similar.
  • Yet again referencing that document, what does this quote actually relate to? “No payment is made for the right to participate in the game or enter premises where the game is played.” If you want to participate in the tournament then I don’t think you’ll be entering for free and expecting to win a share of a prize pool. I’m most likely misinterpreting this as I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed.
  • A player acting as the dealer is allowed but a non-player isn’t? If the dealer is acting to uphold the rules of the game, overlooked by the host (who we’ve acknowledged receives no portion of the entry fee) if you will, then what’s the underlying issue? Collusion? I mean, there’s still a chance that you could have the host, “mutual” dealer and another player(s) working together to rip off the fish, but can’t that same host, dealer/player and another random accomplish the same thing? Hell, you could even pass the deck around the table and have people working together. Any skillful cheater(s) who partakes in the game could still use such things as “shiners”; manipulate the deck and deal seconds if they were offered to deal… Am I missing something here or are there any reasonable rationale behind such a rule?
  • Hypothetically if you can’t host the poker at the card store, what’s the reason behind one being taboo and the other one being fine? Besides from them being rather different games, there’s still a prize pool/ payout for those who place well.  The only real difference is the fact that there’s betting during/ after an event with a fake currency that’s been distributed after an entry fee was paid, exactly like that of a YGO tournament.
  • YGO specific question: Does the store being sanctioned have any impact on its legality? If a card shop that wasn’t tournament sanctioned offered a tournament with a payout like the Poker tournament, would there be any chance of it being under fire?

 

I think I’ll leave it at that for the time being, if there are any questions/ suggestions I’m all ears.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by d1n0man

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ACP    33423

You're thinking about this too logically. Here's how it works: "If it's poker, it's gambling, because everyone knows that poker is gambling." "Yugioh is a game made for kids and is not poker, so it is not gambling." There's no logic behind it. Society just perceives games differently. 

 

Note that when they are talking about groups of private individuals playing poker being legal, they are talking about home games. A poker tournament held at a card shop would be in clear violation of the law, as it is now a public event.

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d1n0man    41
8 hours ago, ACP said:

You're thinking about this too logically. Here's how it works: "If it's poker, it's gambling, because everyone knows that poker is gambling." "Yugioh is a game made for kids and is not poker, so it is not gambling." There's no logic behind it. Society just perceives games differently. 

 

Note that when they are talking about groups of private individuals playing poker being legal, they are talking about home games. A poker tournament held at a card shop would be in clear violation of the law, as it is now a public event.

I think you summed this whole matter up perfectly when you said "If it's poker, it's gambling, because everyone knows that poker is gambling." "Yugioh is a game made for kids and is not poker, so it is not gambling." It's rather unfortunate that society looks at games in such a way based on the belief that is has links to "problem gambling". I mean, slot machines, which are one of the most degenerate and accessible forms of gambling are commonly referred to as Poker machines, leading to people throwing it into the same basket as if they were interchangeable terms.

 

I know that I'm beating the dead horse by continuing with this, but what would happen if we changed the rules a little and allowed people to play entirely for free? They'd obviously be no payout structure, it would just a casual game of poker played at any old card store like our mock scenario. I'm not accounting for any laws explicitly stating that the game cannot be played in a public space whether cash is or isn't exchanging hands, either. That being said, would the inclusion of chips and the nature of the game itself still constitute as an unlawful one in this scenario? I guess people could just turn around and say "the next logical step for these people is playing the game for real money, and for this reason alone, we must protect them at all costs"  

Edited by d1n0man

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ACP    33423

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not from australia, but if it was literally free, it should be allowed, since no one is wagering any money. There are lots of bars down here that do free $100 poker tournaments to attract customers to buy drinks and such.

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