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Spiral Hand Trap Theory

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»victor    6400

On 5/5/2017 at 5:51 PM, Zeppelin said:

 

This deck is one of the only decks that can main 4-10 hand traps and not hurt consistency. It is also one of the easier decks to side with as well because you only have a 7-13 card engine which is then filled with supporter cards.

 

I think it can do fine going second. Between 3 ash blossom, 2-3 ghost ogre, maxx c your going to be ok, then on top of that you can literally side in the kaiju engine for every matchup 

 

So this post got me thinking:

300?cb=20170429113430300?cb=20170429113819300?cb=20170429113827

 

So this is how this works:

 

1) You opponent activates a card or effect

2) You SS a Phantasm Spiral Token which triggers the first effect

3) Add 1 Phantasm Spiral card from your deck to you hand

4) Since Umi is on the field, you can activate the "hand trap" you searched.

 

These "hand traps" are:

 

1) Spiral Battle is a Ghost Ogre + Snow Rabbit + Raigeki Break without the discard

2) Spiral Power is an Effect Veiler, while also being a -1000 Damage Step for battles.

 

So:

 

"Between 3 ash blossom, 2-3 ghost ogre, maxx c " and these, your opponent is going to have to go through a bunch of obstacles. Even aside from these, you can play DD Crow, Droll and Lock Bird, and so on.

 

And it gets even more oppressive when you consider:

 

300?cb=20101118002807

 

Even without considering Phantasm Spiral Dragon and its Equip Spells, you have a strong Stun engine.

 

So what are the decks that can utilize this engine?

 

1) WATER.dek

 

Something like:

 

3 Megalosmasher X

Kabazauls

Gagagigo

Rescue Rabbit

Fossil Dig

Unexpected Dai

X Silent Angler

X Double Fin Shark

 

You might not even want to dilute with Rescue Rabbit, Double Fin Shark, or Silent Angler, but the latter can be dropped when you don't have the Normal support on hand, letting you Bahamut Shark into Toadally Awesome. Unexpected Dai conflicts with the Field Spell Token, but if you have it, you're winning anyway?

 

You'd probably only XYZ when you can seal the game.

 

2) Metalfoes

 

Synergy comes from the fact Metalfoes Counter is a really strong card that keeps Normals on the field.

 

Volflame is a LV 7, so is the LV 8 Token that Pacifis generates, so if you do play the LV 8 Spiral Dragon and its Equips, you could play Champion's Vigilance, which negates Summons, but is probably win-more?

 

3) Paleozoics

 

"Hand Traps" that are actually Traps for Paleos which are actually Normal Monsters, maybe there is something there?

 

4) Dark Magician

 

Another deck that relies on a LV 7 Normal monster (Vigilance) and already plays hand traps,

 

Eternal Soul, Dark Magic Veil keep the DMage on the field, etc.

 

-------------

 

Thoughts?

 

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knives1990    262

Seems like an interesting idea, but these hand traps don't work when you go second.

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»victor    6400
On 5/8/2017 at 4:48 AM, knives1990 said:

Seems like an interesting idea, but these hand traps don't work when you go second.

 

Good point to call out.

 

In spite of that, I do feel that "Traps from hand" are going to be all the more important moving forward because every deck has its Drident now with Tornado Dragon, Master Peace is Quick (And even if they pop Pacifis, you're still getting a 2000/2000 Token and a Trap out of it.) Trap lineups are going to be lighter and having Trap outs matters when you consider what Master Peace can be Summoned with (Monsters/Traps most often, but also Spells like Brilliant Fusion).

 

We have Kaiju Slumber, Raigeki, Dark Hole. Keep in mind, since you need to rid the Token on your turn to get another Token/search, you can Advance Draw the token. This has the side benefit you can Advance Draw your own Kaiju off Slumber or counteract the Kaiju they gave you.

 

But you'd probably rather play Enemy Controller to greater effect because you can disrupt plays with it, turn stuff to defense mode for Piercing, etc.

 

And even moreso, when you read Pacifis carefully, you'll notice it make every Normal monster a Stratos/Monarch during your turn, and if you don't have a Token, you get another search during their turn. And also during your turn, if you get rid of the Token, because it's not OPT.

 

300?cb=20151001204407

 

So that means if you do Tribute for LV 5-6 Normals like PSY-Frame Driver for instance, you drop a 2500 ATK beater with a Monarch like +1 search. That puts 2500+2000+~500+500+2900+1000 damage (8000+) on the board with Phantasm Spiral Grip. You also have other plays like Photon Sanctuary...

 

And with stuff like Faustian Bargain, Econ, Slumber, TMSF, etc. it's not you don't have plays going second.

 

-------------------

 

But I think where Pacifis will have the biggest impact is for Hero Beat Gemini decks:

 

300?cb=20170330172432300?cb=20170330171445

 

I think these hand traps are what makes Pacifis so good.

 

It lets you play during the Damage Step so it's hard to negate and lets you trigger your Phantasm Equips.

 

Keep in mind that unlike Honest, you can use Honest Neos for direct attacks.

 

300?cb=20150131131635

 

 

A lot of folks have probably forgotten about this card but it's still really strong because 1900, 1600, and 2500 either match or greater than a lot of other monsters (Thoroughblade is 16, Daigusto Emeral is 18, for instance)

 

And you could possibly play Ancient Rules for Phantasm Spiral Dragon and Elemental Hero Neos, and Oversoul is a Monster Reborn.

 

For those who question Ancient Rules, Billy Brake played it in Blue Eyes, so you can't dismiss it out of hand.

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»victor    6400
APNick1337    9
On 5/20/2017 at 8:22 PM, victor said:

But I think where Pacifis will have the biggest impact is for Hero Beat Gemini decks

 

Unfortunately, Pacifis' first effect does not trigger on the successful normal summon of Gemini monsters, such as Elemental HERO Neos Alius. Were you saying that the HERO Beat engine is a good compliment to the Pacifis strategy?

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dexer008    805

Umm, what do you mean? Alius and such are normal monsters, why wouldn't they work? Are you talking about gemini summons? Because then yes, it doesn't work. Or are you talking about if you use a pacifis effect after you normal summon, you won't be able to summon another gemini monster from hand because it isn't treated as a normal monster till it hits the field. 

 

Also this deck needs someway to draw into its pieces more I think, taking the example build I would replace the genewarp wolfs and dracoons and use more dark normals like the evilswarm heliotrope and archfiend soldier, and then run something like 3 allure of darkness. Pot of desires also works but banishing combo pieces could hurt (but then again this is a normal beatdown deck, so meh? ). 

 

Edit: Another option as well as you said would be paleozoics, they have the draw 2 card, book of moon and dinomiscus for more plays + toadally awesome access. 

Edited by dexer008

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»victor    6400
2 hours ago, APNick1337 said:

 

Unfortunately, Pacifis' first effect does not trigger on the successful normal summon of Gemini monsters, such as Elemental HERO Neos Alius. Were you saying that the HERO Beat engine is a good compliment to the Pacifis strategy?

 

That's not true.

 

See the ruling here.

 



Hi Judge Joe! Thank you for answering my previous question.

This time I'd like to know how does Pacifis, the Phantasm City interact with Gemini Monsters. Will the Field Spell trigger?

Hello Juan!

Gemini monsters are Normal Monsters on the field and in the graveyard. They don't become Effect Monsters until you Normal Summon them while they're already on the field. When you initially Summon a Gemini Monster, you've just Normal Summoned a Normal Monster, so you can trigger the Field Spell effect to add a Phantasm Spiral card from deck to hand!

 

http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=7167&writer=Joe+Frankino&articledate=5-17-2017

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Samwise    55
1 hour ago, dexer008 said:

Also this deck needs someway to draw into its pieces more I think, taking the example build I would replace the genewarp wolfs and dracoons and use more dark normals like the evilswarm heliotrope and archfiend soldier, and then run something like 3 allure of darkness. Pot of desires also works but banishing combo pieces could hurt (but then again this is a normal beatdown deck, so meh? ). 

 

Megalomasher and Spiral Dragon allow you to play Moray of Greed as well. You'd need to play Gagagigo or Kabazuls (for fossil dig and evolzars) if you wanted more water monsters though. It's probably better than Allure because it puts your normals back in the deck for Unexpected Dai/Fossil Dig/Painful Decision and is a solution to drawing Spiral Dragon.

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APNick1337    9
1 hour ago, victor said:

I'm a member of Adjudication Conflagration on Facebook, I'm not sure how much those opinions are valued on here, but everyone on there agrees that since a Gemini monster is an effect monster in the hand, and normal Summoning it means an attempt to summon an Effect monster, therefore Pacifis won't trigger. I can provide screenshots if necessary, blacking out the names, of course.

 

This was the comment which concluded the discussion and ended up being agreed upon:

 

"When attempting to Summon a Gemini Monster from the hand, you're attempting to Summon an Effect Monster. Even though it would be treated as a Normal Monster while on the field, the preventative clause of Pacifis is already applying by that point since you've attempted to Summon an Effect Monster."

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»victor    6400

@APNick1337

 

I looked at the OCG rulings and you're right, excuse the terrible Google translate.

 

Hand to field -> Effect monster

Grave to field -> Normal monster

 

Sparkman and Big Neos still work.

You can still Oversoul Alius and get it, but it's not as good.

 

https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/faq_search.action?ope=5&fid=20560&keyword=&tag=-1

 

Question
In the field zone of yourself there is "Fascinated City Pasis" in face-up display.

In this situation, if you succeed in summoning "Dual Lancer" in your hand, "1: One time in 1 turn, you successfully summon or special summon 1 normal monster Activate when you do. Do you activate the "Add 1 Vermillion Dragon card from your deck to your hand" effect?
Answer
You can not summon or special summon an effect monster to a turn that triggers the effect of "the city of illusion".

Your own "This card is handled as a monster if it exists face to face in the graveyard or on the field normally" Monster effect, "Dual Lancer" successfully summoned will be treated as a normal monster in the field , "Dual Lancer" is treated as an effect monster in your hand.

Therefore, in this case, you are summoning an effect monster, so you can not activate the effect of "the city of illusion" Pasis "this year.
(In this turn, you can activate if the token does not exist in your field and the opponent activates the effect of magic / trap / monster in your "Field of illusion" Pacific "___ ___ 0 ___ ___ 0 "You can not activate the effect to special summon 1 body" (Phantasmus, Water · Star 8 · Attack / Mori 2000).
Q & A tag
dual
2017-03-24

 

https://www.db.yugioh-card.com/yugiohdb/faq_search.action?ope=5&fid=20559&keyword=&tag=-1

 

Question
In the field zone of yourself there is "Fascinated City Pasis" in face-up display.

In this situation, if you successfully special summon "Dual Lancer" in the cemetery by activating "Orthodox Pedigree", "1:" Once in 1 turn, when you regularly Activate when you successfully summon or special summon a monster. Do you activate the "Add 1 Vermillion Dragon card from your deck to your hand" effect?
Answer
You can not summon or special summon an effect monster to a turn that triggers the effect of "the city of illusion".

In the case of a question situation, if your own "This card is treated as a face-up on the graveyard or field, treat it as a normal monster" Monster effect "Dual Lancer" treated as a normal monster in the graveyard is " "Dual Lancer" special summoned by the effect of "pedigree" and successfully special summoned is treated as a normal monster even in the field.

Therefore, in this case, since you will not be special summoning an effect monster, "1:" Once a turn, you summon 1 normal monster / special Activate when you are successfully summoned. Add 1 "Vampire Dragon" card from your deck to your hand "effect.
(In this turn, you can activate if the token does not exist in your field and the opponent activates the effect of magic / trap / monster in your "Field of illusory city Pasis" ___ ___ 0 You can activate the "Special Summon 1 body" (Phantasmus, Water · Star 8 · Attack / Mori 2000).
Q & A Tag Dual 2017-03-24

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dexer008    805
3 hours ago, Samwise said:

 

Megalomasher and Spiral Dragon allow you to play Moray of Greed as well. You'd need to play Gagagigo or Kabazuls (for fossil dig and evolzars) if you wanted more water monsters though. It's probably better than Allure because it puts your normals back in the deck for Unexpected Dai/Fossil Dig/Painful Decision and is a solution to drawing Spiral Dragon.

 

This actually sounds much better. You could probably drop the monster count as well (planet pathfinder isn't ideal I'd say), and play those cards cause drawing multiple normal summons in hand also sucks. Although not level 4, sea dragoons of draconia has a much better pendulum effect then dragoons of draconia, and is water. Maybe you could play both and bring pendulum summoning into the mix but  I'm not sure if that's asking to put to much in a deck which already has consistency issues. 

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»victor    6400

Don't forget Frostosaurus which is LV 6 WATER Dino with 2600 ATK, so it has the benefit of Fossil Dig and Summoner's Art (along with Spiral Dragon).

 

You can Tribute a Token to generate another Token and search, so it's a Monarch in a sense, and puts damage on board to OTK.

 

Sea Dragoons of Draconia isn't strong enough, unfortunately.

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Zeppelin    57

I don't know, on paper this deck seems like it's meant for Metalfoes. They can make some big ass normal monsters (Adamante and Crimsonite) to take advantage of the equip spells. They can be brought out with all the normal stuff like Unexpected Dai and searched with painful decision but the nice thing is if you don't open the field spell you still have back-up plans (Alkahest). I think the biggest issue with the water route is you don't have anything big enough to swing over master peace. With the Metalfoe route you have multiple ways to out the master peace with your big normal fusions. You also have metalfoe counters to continuously get back normal summon monsters to summon.

 

Monsters: 15

2 Metalfoes Goldriver

2 Metalfoes Volflame

2 Metalfoes Silverd

2 Metalfoes Steelen

3 Phantasm Spiral Dragon   

3 Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit

1 Maxx "C"

 

Spell Cards: 17

3 Unexpected Dai

2 Painful Decision 

3 Terraforming

3 Pacifis, The Phantasm City

2 Phantasm Spiral Wave

1 Phantasm Spiral Crash 

1 Phantasm Spiral Grip

1 Metalfoes Fusion

1 Fulmetalfoes Fusion

 

Trap Cards: 9

2 Metalfoes Counter

3 Phantasm Spiral Battle

2 Phantasm Spiral Power

1 Skill Drain

 

This is just a rough idea. 

Edited by Zeppelin

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Samwise    55
6 hours ago, Zeppelin said:

They can make some big ass normal monsters (Adamante and Crimsonite)

 

They are non-effect monsters, not normal monsters. Only tokens and cards with vanilla backgrounds are considered normal monsters. So you can't equip to them and they turn off your traps.

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»victor    6400

I think in regards to Master Peace, the best approach for this deck may be to still play EHero Sparkman, and Honest / Honest Neos, because 1600+2500=4100 is bigger than MP outright and you can Emergency Call it, and having Spell outs like Gemini Spark to go with your Trap based outs (I assume you can still play Spiral Battle with Alius on the field), gives you different outs to MP.

 

Once Alius is on the field, you can still trigger Pacifis on their turn right?

 

Your alternatives are playing Gameciel with Moray of Greed, but then you'd need to have support to get over 2200 ATK, like having Pacifis and searching Spiral Grip for +500, or having Battle to destroy Gameciel.

 

Or you can play Share the Pain with your Token, which isn't terrible, beyond Raigeki and Dark Hole.

 

And you do have Horn of Heaven or Champion's Vigilance to stop the Summon in the first place.

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AK-48    70

With reference to the discussion on Gemini monsters summon from hand not triggering pacifis, would special summoning a Gemini from deck be treated the same? Or would summoning from deck  trigger pacifis.

Edited by AK-48

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APNick1337    9
4 hours ago, AK-48 said:

With reference to the discussion on Gemini monsters summon from hand not triggering pacifis, would special summoning a Gemini from deck be treated the same? Or would summoning from deck  trigger pacifis.

Pacifis won't trigger if you summon a Gemini monster from the Deck since it is still an attempted summon of an Effect Monster while in the Deck.

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Samwise    55

Spiral Dragon with Grip isn't a reliable way to out Master Peace seeing as there's really no way to resolve an equip other than Wave vs True Draco and then they have a turn to kill your Dragon with a trap or Master Peace itself. The only realistic outs to MP are Share the Pain, Kaiju, and Ghost Ogre as far as I can think of. You pretty much have to go first and open Heat Wave and/or Set Rotation (and pray they don't hard draw monster and spell).

 

This deck just gets shit on (even more than it usually does when your opponent actually reads your cards) vs True Draco. Their non-boss monsters are too big to reliably resolve the good equip effects, tutors removal for your pacifis (the only good card in your deck), and doesn't care about hand traps that aren't called Ash Blossom (the main advantage your deck has).

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»victor    6400
On 5/26/2017 at 11:20 PM, Samwise said:

Spiral Dragon with Grip isn't a reliable way to out Master Peace seeing as there's really no way to resolve an equip other than Wave vs True Draco and then they have a turn to kill your Dragon with a trap or Master Peace itself. The only realistic outs to MP are Share the Pain, Kaiju, and Ghost Ogre as far as I can think of. You pretty much have to go first and open Heat Wave and/or Set Rotation (and pray they don't hard draw monster and spell).

 

This deck just gets shit on (even more than it usually does when your opponent actually reads your cards) vs True Draco. Their non-boss monsters are too big to reliably resolve the good equip effects, tutors removal for your pacifis (the only good card in your deck), and doesn't care about hand traps that aren't called Ash Blossom (the main advantage your deck has).

 

Here are some things to consider:

 

1) Playing Solemn Scolding, Warning, Champion's Vigilance - the ability to negate Normal Summons lets you out Master Peace. The fact that we have hand traps and don't need to play a lot of Set backrow means we can go with Scolding, which can protect Skill Drain or Pacifis. As gimmicky as this is, Mystik Wok   lets you gain 2000+ LP, and is one of the few Quickplays that Tribute Tokens either turn, to enable Pacifis +2s again, not to mention gives you yet another way to turn off Kaijus, so that can help with the Lifepoint cost.

 

2) Playing bigger monsters like Dark Magician and (DARK Spellcaster) Foucault's Cannon and Gemini Elf, as that lets you access more Spell outs like Dark Magical Circle and Magical Dimension.

 

300?cb=20161007082407300?cb=20161007082614

 

Read this card carefully, you can Tribute the Spiral Token, doesn't need to be a Spellcaster monster, and the destruction doesn't target.

Secret Village works great with Set Rotation, because you already play Pacifis.

 

If you guys haven't realized this yet, Set Rotation is a Quickplay so you can trigger Dark Magician effects on their turn...

 

Dark Magician + Pacifis puts OTK damage on the board with the Equip, 2500+2000+2900+500+1000.

 

 

300?cb=20151202231421300?cb=20151202231429

 

Keep in mind that Pendulum Magicians are coming back and you can side into them, e.g. tutor Tuning Magician with Magican's Navigation (Tuning + DM is Omega who escapes the field to make your Spiral traps live), and Dragonpulse and Dragonvein are Normal monsters, and you can make Ebon High Magician and Ebon Illusion Magician with Dragoncaller/Xiangke.

 

With the Phantasm Spiral traps, Heat Wave, Skill Drain, and Pacifis, that deck is much better now. You can play Ancient Rules, and trigger Pacifis, so that mitigates the -1, and you have more targets for Summoner's Art, so it's consistent.

 

------------

 

The sad thing is only casuals play Dark Magician (except Jeff Jones), and they can't afford all the good cards the deck needs. If somebody good were to pilot it, I bet it could succeed.

 

Another angle to look at is:

 

300?cb=20110227024125

 

It's a good bait card, and it lets you get more out of Advanced Draw, if you played it, not to mention Skill Drain.

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»Pharaoh Atem    15766
On 5/23/2017 at 10:31 PM, victor said:

 

I'll have Joe correct that.

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Damn it feels longer than it's actually been. You made a post back on the 6th

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»victor    6400
35 minutes ago, Pharaoh Atem said:

 

I'll have Joe correct that.

 

Thanks.

 

There's been a lot of confusion because some people have been pointing to this:

 

e19a7f9ac3b8868b81fec2e53c96f089.png

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APNick1337    9
18 hours ago, victor said:

 

Thanks.

 

There's been a lot of confusion because some people have been pointing to this:

 

e19a7f9ac3b8868b81fec2e53c96f089.png

 

An email from Konami holds more weight than anything any of us can say, right? If that's real, anyone can point to it and say "I can do this because the rules department of the game said I can."

Edited by APNick1337

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