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banefulscolumn

In a hypothetical Set Rotation format scenario, what would an optimal Core Set look like?

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Would like to seek feedback and suggestions.  Trying to create a card pool that's diverse where no particular group of cards dominate.

 

Monster Cards

Probably 20 of the best splashable monsters of each Attribute.

 

Spell Cards

Graceful Charity

Premature Burial

Snatch Steal

Metamorphosis

Scapegoat

Soul Charge

Dark Hole

Pot of Duality

Pot of Avarice
Shard of Greed

Night Beam

Book of Moon

Gold Sarcophagus

Last Will

Creature Swap

Prohibition

Enemy Controller

My Body as a Shield

Swords of Revealing Light

Nobleman of Crossout

Fiend's Sanctuary

Card Destruction

Foolish Burial

Allure of Darkness

Mystical Space Typhoon

Twin Twisters

Reinforcement of the Army

The Monarchs Stormforth

Brain Control

Limiter Removal

 

Trap Cards

Bottomless Trap Hole

Compulsory Evacuation Device

Torrential Tribute

Call of the Haunted

Mirror Force

Dimensional Prison

Fiendish Chain

Breakthrough Skill

Imperial Iron Wall

Dust Tornado

Waboku

Horn of Heaven

Seven Tools of the Bandit

Trap Stun

Wiretap

Memory of an Adversary

Mask of Restrict

Dark Bribe 

Magic Cylinder

Chaos Trap Hole

Light-Imprisoning Mirror

Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror

Floodgate Trap Hole

Blazing Mirror Force

Typhoon

Royal Decree

Starlight Road

Huge Revolution Is Over

Cloak and Dagger

Time Seal

Mind Drain

Soul Drain

Royal Prison

 

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What are your goals or criteria for this format? What do you plan to do with it? Who is your target audience?

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On 6/6/2017 at 2:11 PM, mark said:

What are your goals or criteria for this format? What do you plan to do with it? Who is your target audience?

 

For players who want a modular splashable balanced format with a limited card pool consisting of even tradeoffs.  Similar to Goats, but with modern cards instead of TER.

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Ok. Is there many interest in the format? 

 

Take newgioh, it dies out if there isn't interest. First and most important thing is to have people who want to play and spend time into it. 

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Posted (edited)

If you want people to play a goat-like format, you're probably going to want to switch the format away from floodgates: no one likes them, and they're one of the key reasons, at least in my experience, as to why parts of my community even made the switch to goats: the horror of sideboard wars and you-can't-play boards early game.

You can make a good case for floodgates being a necessary evil in a huge non-rotating format full of extremely unfair match up, such as MtG Legacy, where ''fixing the problem that requires the floodgates to be there'' would lead to the banning of hundreds of cards and would make the metagame significantly less diverse, but in a rotating format with a fairly small, cookie-cutter-y cardpool, they're just terrible for the game and should honestly be removed because they create degenerate decks and gamestates... not to mention that YOU have direct control over the cardpool.

Honestly, the main gripe with non-goat base alternatives is that none of them are probably ever going to be as good as goat is, in part due to how poorly designed YGO has been for almost the entirety of its existence, and just how few balanced AND skillful monsters there are.

You have two decisions:

1) to remake a pseudo-Newgioh, which seems like a decent idea if you have both a lot of support from the community and don't make all the blunders that Newgioh's designers made; completely and drastically upsetting game balance (starting with Tour Guide, which warped the format to the point that the developpers had to go around printing a bunch of other absolutely insane cards to create diversity (zombies and beasts), which then ultimately caused the format to internally collapse with a domino reaction of TGU-New archetypes-DPrison floater hate-Doublebreaker backrow hate, and so forth. To make matters worse, for whatever reason, they decided to, despite adding a new cardpool, to do almost nothing to the original goat list, not bumping any of its powercrept relics or fair playables back to 3 (*cough* Exiled Force *cough*... and many more), all the while keeping some power cards despite the new format and the disappearance of other cards that used to be in the format making them broken and metagame unbalancing (Pot of Greed).

2) to be a pro and make your own bloody cards instead of relying on Konami's broken design; This will require a huge amount of support from the community (both to create it and to promote it; people will probably be initially hesitant due to the made-up cardpool), and will require some pretty masterful design if you want to create something as amazingly complex, interactive, and yet as simple and as casual as Goat Format. People have tried to do this before (and are still doing it), but all of those projects are IMO absolutely crippled by both a brainless cardpool and a power level so low that it's obvious that it'll drain the fun out of it: the result, so far, seems to be formats sharing the worst traits of both Yugi-Kaiba-LoB and Chaos Return, and ultimately feel like someone took Battle Packs, removed all the staples and power cards, and then called it a day...

 

I'm not trying to discourage you, but do keep in mind that doing this stuff is NOT EASY, and requires both a lot of skill and a lot of determination. 

 

My suggestions so far: stay away from floodgates, and print BALANCED sideboard cards... and probably also remove obviously degenerate sack enablers such as Soul Charge. Also remember to be careful about TMSF: the card is EXTREMELY strong, and will require a high-power metagame at launch to go with it.

Edited by Brandis72
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4 hours ago, Brandis72 said:

If you want people to play a goat-like format, you're probably going to want to switch the format away from floodgates: no one likes them,

You make a good point.  Floodgates aren't necessary in balanced custom formats.  They were made to slow down decks that Special Summon 5+ monsters per turn but with a set rotation, balance issues can be solved with a scalpel rather than a hatchet.

 

4 hours ago, Brandis72 said:

 

Honestly, the main gripe with non-goat base alternatives is that none of them are probably ever going to be as good as goat is, in part due to how poorly designed YGO has been for almost the entirety of its existence, and just how few balanced AND skillful monsters there are.

I don't buy this.  Yugioh communities are full of intelligent minds, and there are lots of balanced cards.  Goat Format wasn't some intricately designed masterpiece.  It was a vestige of a post-CED format where people just discovered combos like Meta/Goat/Tsuk.  The only real limitation is lack of creativity.

 

4 hours ago, Brandis72 said:

You have two decisions:

1) to remake a pseudo-Newgioh, which seems like a decent idea if you have both a lot of support from the community and don't make all the blunders that Newgioh's designers made; completely and drastically upsetting game balance

 

Of course.  Newgioh flopped because of its bad design decisions.  A contrived format should have some sort of constitution clearly outlining the purpose for the decisions.  One tenet I always make clear is that deck building decisions need to have even tradeoffs.  In Goat format, one player could run an extra Dust Tornado in their deck and another player could run an extra Sakuretsu Armor, and both players could be considered rightful in their decision.  In Newgioh however, powerful cards were allowed in 3's.  3 Ryko's, 3 D Prisons, etc.  It made the decks very linear and lacking in variety.

 

In an ideal format, at least half of the deck would be discretionary.

 

4 hours ago, Brandis72 said:

 

2) to be a pro and make your own bloody cards instead of relying on Konami's broken design; This will require a huge amount of support from the community (both to create it and to promote it;

Honestly, I could go out and design cards, but the problem is that people are very tradition minded.  They'll tolerate something if it's official and it's been around long enough, but people are resistant toward change (even smart ones)..  Even Jazz would have a tough time selling a create-a-card format to the community, so I won't even try.

 

At the end of the day, there are plenty of balanced cards to pick from.  Picking cards which have already been made is less of a hassle.  They've already been tested in some capacity.  Rulings were already released.

 

4 hours ago, Brandis72 said:

I'm not trying to discourage you, but do keep in mind that doing this stuff is NOT EASY, and requires both a lot of skill and a lot of determination. 

 

My suggestions so far: stay away from floodgates, and print BALANCED sideboard cards... and probably also remove obviously degenerate sack enablers such as Soul Charge. Also remember to be careful about TMSF: the card is EXTREMELY strong, and will require a high-power metagame at launch to go with it.

 

I agree.  I think the key is picking a level where I want the power creep frozen at and sticking to it.  I'd perhaps like to see the power level somewhere between Goats and the 2014 formats.  But not that awkward period where people were just trying to summon generic Extra Deck monsters to +1.

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who cares

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Core sets exist(ed) for a few reasons.

Introducing new players to the game; rarity was correlated with complexity. In MRL Cyber Jar was a Rare and MST was an Ultra which is totally backwards.

With an online format you have no real rarity system, no physical cards, so all scarcity has to come from your limited/semi/forbidden list.  Few players will be new either. At least half of your cardpool needs to be simple shit, with no redundancies in function except in power level. Harpie's Feather Duster and Raigeki could be probably be in there, or Heavy and Dark Hole, or not either, but definitely shit like MST, Soul Taker, etc. Shitty cards need to be playable or tempting, like Horus LV6.  I don't agree with MST and Twin Twister being in the same core set, one should come before the other. kinda like shock vs. lightning bolt, or whether or not lightning helix or char/psionic blast will be there. having 2 as a default playable toughness, 3, or 4, matters a lot.

In goats, 1100+ DEF is a magic number since Tsukuyomi can't kill it. Berserk Gorilla is more relevant  (than it should be) because it can beat good ass 1900s like Airknight and Exarion, but 1000 DEF really hurts it; pretty balanced but it sets the whole power level of the format to what can work with/vs Tsukuyomi or not, whether or not TER utterly makes it irrelevant or not. Honest wouldn't be too bad to add, would it?

Chaos Emperor Dragon vs. current bullshit. Big diff in the DBZ scale. Keep things close while having bombs, just know that the format is gonna revolve around supporting them. Sacred Phoenix can only be decent in a certain environment.  XYZ combos make almost the entire cardpool useless (and noninteractive). If stats are unclimbable for basic monsters removal and floating will take priority. If you want a combat heavy meta, keep checks on all stats to power ratios and make removal shittier. rush recklessly is relevant where? 

Why would Dimensional Prison be released before Sakuretsu Armor [or what if neither existed in place of Widespread Ruin or some other weird shit] if Monster Reborn isn't in the picture? Why have Call of the Haunted and Premature Burial in the same core set when they operate very differently but do the same thing. You have a lot of cards that just draw cards. Pot of Avarice and Pot of Duality and Graceful Charity are probably enough--you don't need Allure of Darkness. Or if you do need Allure, cut one of the others.

Release early support and reprints to support the archetypes coming in future sets which define core mechanics. For example, including Vampire Lord and Pyramid Turtle in a core set makes a lot of sense, and so does waiting a set (x months) to release Spirit Reaper, Zombie Master, etc [but maybe not broken shit later]. If Marshmallon comes out later, a Ninja Grandmaster Sasuke or Shield Crush would be a "good" "common".  Mobius and Zaborg, if you chose to do monarchs, would make sense to release simultaneously. If the meta goes backrow heavy or set monster heavy Granmarg could be useful. Raiza OR Caius should make an appearance but in what context or release order? 

Decide which keywords [game mechanics] are coming back or not. Do you (players) want a lot of summoning from deck or not? do you want synchros or not? do you want a lot of recursion or a lot of chaos/chaos like stuff? now that we're this far into yugioh they've revisited a lot of their early mechanics and released archetype support cards. you have the advantage now of an expanded cardpool to draw from. a format where spell counters didn't suck would be cool, for example. 

This is doable but start small and start local. Once you have some empirical data you can try to pitch it from what you learn. Cube drafts in YGO are essentially this concept anyway, just compressed into a single event; ask the people who make good ones how they make those choices. Shitty cards that do rare mechanics in the set can be good instead of obsolete. Breaker > Chiron. Start your entire format with a "strongest card" in mind.

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