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The Next Season of Warring

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+mmf+    23072

eventually he's going to start talking about it in mafia games if you guys don't do something about it

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+ACP+    33845
6 hours ago, Jazz said:

Is the next season going to combine goat + current on the same teams/wars once again? Am I the only person who doesn't like this at all?

 

PS if so, rosters need minimum requirements for each format.

 

I think the entire combination thing should be scrapped for a variety of reasons though.

It'll be left up to the teams playing.

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Jazz    4587

Observation: most captains either suck or cause lots of controversy

 

Suggestion: eliminate most of their powers

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+ACP+    33845
5 hours ago, Jazz said:

Observation: most captains either suck or cause lots of controversy

 

Suggestion: eliminate most of their powers

Not sure if you mean Me/MMF/Satchmo or just team leaders in general. The roles of team leaders will be reduced significantly next season. It will be quite a bit less of a burden.

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Jazz    4587
2 minutes ago, ACP said:

Not sure if you mean Me/MMF/Satchmo or just team leaders in general. The roles of team leaders will be reduced significantly next season. It will be quite a bit less of a burden.

 

I mean the 10 team leaders in general. Some are better than others. I won't name names.

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Silver    919
9 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

I mean the 10 team leaders in general. Some are better than others. I won't name names.

thanks

 

It means alot

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+mark    2885

I think watchers or no watchers is an issue that needs to be discussed. 

 

I think the current system of "watchers for war council only" is flawed because the captains are on the teams so essentially everyone has access to the cards you play anyway. 

 

There is an argument for watchers. That argument being people like to watch, matches could be streamed, it could help activity, and it's just overall more fun to be able to spectate matches. These are all benefits in favor of it. However, this season taught us most people don't mind playing with watchers, and there have been enough matches to stream, so I don't think this is a big issue. 

There is a strong argument against watchers. And this argument is really underrated, but very important, and it must be discussed. Skill in yugioh is decided partly by deck building an partly by technical play. In current yugioh especially, in some formats it's dictated by deckbuilding entirely. Having others know your deck and techs so they can copy it after you've used it a single time, or can counterpick you is very problematic on 2 levels: in warring, and in IRL tournaments.

Problems in warring
I initially disliked having to submit which deck types I used since it gave away too much information: in tournaments, you can play 15 rounds with a deck before people can capitalize on the information for next tournament, but in warring it only takes 1 match. Yes it takes skill to learn multiple decks and to differentiate between them, and there's a certain skill factor in picking decks in warring that's different from picking decks in tournaments, because you know which team you're playing, but I gave in because it essentially came down to "allen wants the info for his database" + in a tournament people would find out what you're on as well anyway. 

But it's a different thing entirely for people to know your exact decklist and playstyle. All it takes is to watch 3 matches and people know your exact list, strengths and flaws, and which boards you tend to end on. There's some elemtn of skill to switching up your deck but in 1-deck formats there's only so much you can switch up between, and techs are often so good that once you used it you can't go back either. I'd love to switch between Dino, Invoked, Demise True Draco, True Draco Zoo, Zoodiac, Infernoid, Paleozoic, but the truth is these decks aren't comparable. We aren't in a 5-deck format. We've had 1-deck formats, sometimes 2-deck formats, for a long time now. And it's not like you can switch up between 10 different versions, each with different techs, either. There are often only 1 maybe 2 viable versions of a deck, and others are significantly weaker. Yes, it takes skill to have to play 5 matches in a war while your opponent is figuring out  your decks as the war goes on. But it doesn't take skill to go into a war knowing the exact list your opponent is on before the war even started cause you're seen it in previous wars. 

Problems for IRL tournaments

Warring should be a viable way to test for events. The last thing you want when testing for an event is: 1. to spread your techs/decks so people can copy it or prepare against it, and now you've lost your edge, or 2. have people know what deck you're on so they could use that information against you when they face you. 

I personally don't play IRL tournaments. But I respected my team and I haven't used any techs that my team wanted to use at a tournament. We kept those a secret. I can speak for pretty much my entire team that we almost never played our "best deck", because someone always had an event coming up, or there was always some reason to save those decks for later on. For example, we knew about Droll Lock, Psy-Frame Gamma, Retaliating "C" when people were only on Ash and Ogre. We knew about Shuffle Reborn, Paleozoic Canadia, Traptrix Rafflesia, Floodgate Trap Hole, Big True Draco Zoo, and many more things that I'm probably forgetting while I write this, before NAWCQ. Some of them weren't good, some of them were amazing, but most of them we haven't even used at all until after they caught on. There's also some that we still don't want to give out. Point being, and every person who attempts to innovate decks and is competitive outside of warring will understand, there's no point in giving them out because it's literally a misplay to do so. It will hurt your chances of doing well at tournaments, and yugioh isn't skill rewarding enough to afford sub optimal play if you want to win a tournament.

There are 2 others problems as well:

IRL matches

 

IRL matches that count for warring are allowed, but IRL the matches can essentially take place without watchers. There also can't be war council interferences. 


Lackey watchers bug

On lackey, there's a reason to not want to play with watchers because there's a bug where watchers can see your deck sometimes, which is obviously problematic, even if it occurred only once or twice so far. There's also the annoyance of seeing people enter/leave the game, making comments, and people taking your opponents seat unintentionally. 

 

Based on these 2 things, it's hypocritical to allow IRL matches to take place and to allow lackey no watchers matches, while watchers are a must on DB. In fact, one could argue the opposite as well: that IRL matches need some kind of photo proof or that they need to be confirmed by a 3rd party.

4 possible solutions:

Solution 1: make allowing watchers a must

This will make DGz less competitive, every good player will sandbag, and DGz will be more fun instead. If we do this I still suggest a watchers pass for DGz only, that can be dropped in the Discord before the match takes place.

Solution 2: make giving the watchers pass to both teams a must

This way, both teams can have the excitement of watching ongoing games, without both players having to worry about other teams spying on them

 

Solution 3: make giving the watchers pass to war council a must, and make war council exist of people who aren't on teams themselves

 

I personally like this solution the most, but it may also be the most impractical one. I think it solves the tendency of war council to be biased, since they're not involved. The only problem is if we can find enough people who can and would want to do this: I for one would want to play so I wouldn't be on war council if it meant I couldn't be on a team as well

Solution 4: allow no watchers

 

In this scenario, in case a war council decision needs to be made, screenshots and logs will be send instead

I think, before people instantly opt for solution 1 thinking it will be best for warring as a whole, that it will do a lot of damage to warring if we do that. Not only do we essentially have to eliminate IRL matches, risk the lackey bug, and scare away some players who don't want to deal with watchers matches especially before important tournaments: we also force all innovate and good players to sandbag their matches and the competition will essentially turn into a contest of casual matches. I think solution 2, 3, and 4 are all better than 1, if possible, because even with those, people are still allowed to play with watchers if both parties agree. So there is no value lost there, we're essentially giving people the freedom to choose, the same way we give people the freedom to choose between DB and Lackey. I don't see the issue: if half the people want to play no watchers, we should listen to them. If only 5% of people want it, then people can still view the other 95% of matches, so no value lost there.

If we want warring activity to grow, and for people to enjoy warring, we should give people as much freedom in choices like these as possible. The more restrictions we place upon matches, the more inclined people are to play elsewhere, which as a result is worse for warring as a whole. 

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+ACP+    33845

I've already decided that all matches must be played public. No more IRL matches. The problem is that otherwise there's no way to guarantee that the matches are being played at all (ie that people aren't just getting their friends to report losses and boost them). Obviously if people are determined enough, they can still find ways to cheat the system, but I'd rather make it as difficult as possible.

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+mark    2885

Solution 2 / Solution 3 can still go around that, or a combination of these (giving pass to both teams + war council that's not on other teams)

 

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+ACP+    33845

Solution 2: Not all rated matches will be for team vs team play, so it doesn't work.

 

Solution 3: Too many people will conveniently forget to tell war council their password, forces war council to actually watch their match and make sure that they're playing.

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+mark    2885

As for Solution 2, I intended it for team wars. For all I care individual ranked matches can be public. I guess it's true that with the new system there will barely be a distinction between individual matches and team matches anyway so I see what you're getting at. I think a lot of value will be lost by this system from a competitive PoV, that's all I'll say about it. And the Lackey bug may be problematic + watchers on Lackey are pretty obnoxious in general. 

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+mark    2885
7 minutes ago, Silver said:

Tbh it only accomodates 1 or 2 people so why are we just trying to benefit them

 

On top of my head:

myself
Me.
Mustang
Mistilteinn 
Tristan on Lackey because of the bug
Kris on lackey because of the bug
Probably others on lackey as well that I'm forgetting
Loli doesn't even use his real decks in warring
I assume some others who go to tournaments do the same

I mean how many competitive active players on this site do we even have. I guarantee you they're sandbagging already. 

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+ACP+    33845

If someone can actually prove that this lackey bug even exists, I can probably get it fixed. Until someone can provide me any with any info related to the bug, I'm not going to factor that into my decision. Public matches is what makes the most sense for warring as a whole, and I think everything will be fine.

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Silver    919
Just now, mark said:

 

On top of my head:

myself
Me.
Mustang
Mistilteinn 
Tristan on Lackey because of the bug
Kris on lackey because of the bug
Probably others on lackey as well that I'm forgetting
Loli doesn't even use his real decks in warring
I assume some others who go to tournaments do the same

I mean how many competitive active players on this site do we even have. I guarantee you they're sandbagging already. 

What bug

 

Nigga thats like half your team and 3 other people. Nobody gives a flying f*** about them. Deal with it. 

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+mark    2885
2 minutes ago, Silver said:

What bug

 

Nigga thats like half your team and 3 other people. Nobody gives a flying f*** about them. Deal with it. 

 

In a 10 team season, out of which 1 team got DQ'd, and half the other teams are almost completely inactive or don't care / aren't competitive or care much, you can't just ignore one of the 2 teams that made play-offs without getting their captain DQ'd, just cause you don't like that team. Keep your personal dislike for me out of this for a sec please.

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+ACP+    33845

No, I will be ignoring them. If you care more about hiding your shitty tech than participating in warring, don't war. I've been trying to squash this mentality for awhile now, and you should be too. DGZ sucks when everyone is just trying to hide everything from each other.

 

There was a time when Patrick Hoban, Johnathan Weigle, Chris Hentz, Mike Steinman, Brady, etc all played public war matches on DN every week and didn't care who watched. And chances are they were all way better at Yugioh then than anyone is on DGZ today.

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+Digbick    7329

watchers should always be enabled on db

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Silver    919
7 minutes ago, mark said:

 

In a 10 team season, out of which 1 team got DQ'd, and half the other teams are almost completely inactive or don't care / aren't competitive or care much, you can't just ignore one of the 2 teams that made play-offs without getting their captain DQ'd, just cause you don't like that team. Keep your personal dislike for me out of this for a sec please.

To me, thats more of war council/captain problem, not a "having watchers is only good for good teams" problem. In actual tournament play, transparency is a very large factor in competitive play during a tournament. By having it removed, we also remove part of the competitiveness of warring, which is being able to adjust to adjustments made. 

 

Theres no personal dislike or subjectiveness in my ruling, this is based on the history of actual competition.

 

In basketball, other teams are allowed to watch other teams games for strategy

Same with baseball and knowing what pitchers do and tendencies of hitters

Same in YGO, seeing which deck is in top tables and adjusting to that. 

 

edit: hell, you just did it by using that no hand deck on duel links. So again stop being hypocritical

 

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+Digbick    7329

if you don't want watcher in your war duel, don't fucking war then

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+Digbick    7329

Mark's argument for no watchers is basically, "I don't want to reveal my tech cuz of irl events". Mark doesn't even play irl lmao. No one is gonna sandbag in war match just cuz someone is watching. If niggas don't want to reveal their "tech" so they can use it for irl events, they wouldn't be using it in war matches. 

 

Silver makes a good point. In sports, teams can't just go "I DON'T WANT WATCHERS SO I CAN HIDE MY STRATEGY" or "I GET PRESSURED WHEN OTHERS ARE WATCHING ME". If one actually gets pressured in war match cuz of watchers, they should learn how to deal with it. 

 

In fighting games, everyone knows what characters other use and how they play. Just because a player know what character their opponent is using and how they're gonna play it, doesn't mean they will win. They still need to fight and win.

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Jazz    4587

As riveting as this watcher discussion is, can we talk more about how teams should be formed? I think the proposal in the OP to eliminate teams as we know them is garbage. What ought to be done is improving a system that had a lot of potential but instead caused way too much drama. I am thinking about this as I type, so bear with me. I'm sure I have some shitty ideas in here too, just let me know, I want to talk about this stuff. That is the point of this thread.

 

The Draft:
Personally, I thought the draft system was cool. Drafts are fucking awesome. What I did not like at all was the free agent / trade / drop system. I would personally like to see teams that are more stable and cohesive throughout the season. This puts the emphasis on teamwork, learning, and camaraderie.

 

Trades:

Trades are completely useless, get rid of them. They only serve to cause salt, and everybody is obviously trying to rip each other off or screw someone else over. Furthermore, unlike pro-sports leagues, there is no need to sacrifice short term success for long term gain (or vice versa). Unlike fantasy sports leagues, there is little need for acquiring positional diversity, when there are only 3 types of players (goat, current, flex).

 

Free agents:

Free agents should not be allowed to join teams after a certain point (perhaps halfway through the season). If you missed out on the first half of the season, too fucking bad, go grind the singles ladder.

 

Free agents should be distributed on a basis of need. DRP is convoluted and a poor reflection of need. Furthermore, without trading, there is no sensible way to acquire or award DRP. Use a weekly waiver system based on inverse standings.

 

Free agents should only be allowed to join in the middle of the season if they have a duelistgroundz account that was made before the season began (with a minimum post requirement). If they don't have an established duelistgroundz account, they can grind the singles ladder and join next season. Seasons are not that long. This solves the identification problem and makes decisions captains make about adding free agents way simpler. Furthermore, rankings from previous warring seasons should be archived and attached to free agents like a credential. Hell, past rankings should really be a PROFILE FIELD on this goddam website. Let's make that happen.

 

Dropping:

Dropping players without their consent is super fucking lame. If you want to drop someone who is inactive, fucking contact them and ask them if they plan to become more active again. Just ask @Malcolm. Players signed up for this shit to have fun. If you acquired or drafted a bad player, too bad.

 

Roster Requirements:

If we are going to cross format contaminate our teams and wars, at least set minimum roster requirements for number of goat players and number of current players. Perhaps, a team should have enough players of each format so that another team could conceivably win by taking all of the other team's hearts in any particular format. For example, if teams win wars by taking 6 hearts, you are required to have at least 3 current players and 3 goat players on your roster at all times.

 

Dodging:

Stop giving a fuck about dodging. Weaker players don't want to let their teams down and lose multiple hearts in a short span of time, especially to the same opponent. Forcing them to play does nobody any favors and it doesn't make the competition any more legitimate. You cannot police it unless you demand 24/7 access to captains discord conversations. Even then, there are loopholes. Use the tag system on discord (brilliant btw), the PM system on the main site, and stop trying to catch people dodging.

 

Hearts:

Sweeping is bullcrap. Targeting is bullcrap (furthermore it's a bitch to police). Use a better heart system so this doesn't matter as much. Cap the number of hearts any player can take from a team (it should never be more than half the total number of hearts needed to win the war imo). Stop crying about wars going unfinished. Make the wars last longer or allow teams to play 2 wars at once. Use reasonable tie-breakers.

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Jazz    4587
5 minutes ago, mark said:

I mean that's basically the opposite of the OP

 

And? Do you think the proposal in the OP is a good idea?

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