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The Next Season of Warring

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+mark    2885
5 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

And? Do you think the proposal in the OP is a good idea?

 

I do 

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Gojira    1704

I stand by the OP, it's much better than the previous system in almost every way. I'll make a detailed post tomorrow.

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Jazz    4587

Well, I know personally I might care even less about it without teams as we know them.

 

Looking forward to your post gojira.

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+ACP+    33845

"Without teams as we know them"

 

It's interesting how no one complained about how a "form your own teams" system was so terrible when it was literally what we did for 12 years in a row, and I received daily complaints about how terrible the season 1 system was. If you all thought the season 1 system was so great, you should've done less complaining and less cheating.

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Jazz    4587
21 minutes ago, ACP said:

"Without teams as we know them"

 

It's interesting how no one complained about how a "form your own teams" system was so terrible when it was literally what we did for 12 years in a row, and I received daily complaints about how terrible the season 1 system was. If you all thought the season 1 system was so great, you should've done less complaining and less cheating.

 

Season one had a bunch of flaws and I would like to see them addressed. Your proposed solution is to, basically, completely scrap the concept of teams. Sort of like taking a chain saw into the operating room, when a scalpel is probably be more appropriate.

 

Also 2/3 the last three major warring systems had drafted teams. I'm not sure if my Goat Format War League was the first system to do it, but they're fun, and I was happy to see Season 1 use a draft.

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+ACP+    33845

No, I'm not scrapping the concept of teams. Saying something blatantly false a million times in a row doesn't make it true.

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OD Superman    1098
59 minutes ago, ACP said:

No, I'm not scrapping the concept of teams. Saying something blatantly false a million times in a row doesn't make it true.

Doesn't seem to stop you though.

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Mustang    15
12 hours ago, Jazz said:

As riveting as this watcher discussion is, can we talk more about how teams should be formed? I think the proposal in the OP to eliminate teams as we know them is garbage. What ought to be done is improving a system that had a lot of potential but instead caused way too much drama. I am thinking about this as I type, so bear with me. I'm sure I have some shitty ideas in here too, just let me know, I want to talk about this stuff. That is the point of this thread.

 

The Draft:
Personally, I thought the draft system was cool. Drafts are fucking awesome. What I did not like at all was the free agent / trade / drop system. I would personally like to see teams that are more stable and cohesive throughout the season. This puts the emphasis on teamwork, learning, and camaraderie.

 

Trades:

Trades are completely useless, get rid of them. They only serve to cause salt, and everybody is obviously trying to rip each other off or screw someone else over. Furthermore, unlike pro-sports leagues, there is no need to sacrifice short term success for long term gain (or vice versa). Unlike fantasy sports leagues, there is little need for acquiring positional diversity, when there are only 3 types of players (goat, current, flex).

 

Free agents:

Free agents should not be allowed to join teams after a certain point (perhaps halfway through the season). If you missed out on the first half of the season, too fucking bad, go grind the singles ladder.

 

Free agents should be distributed on a basis of need. DRP is convoluted and a poor reflection of need. Furthermore, without trading, there is no sensible way to acquire or award DRP. Use a weekly waiver system based on inverse standings.

 

Free agents should only be allowed to join in the middle of the season if they have a duelistgroundz account that was made before the season began (with a minimum post requirement). If they don't have an established duelistgroundz account, they can grind the singles ladder and join next season. Seasons are not that long. This solves the identification problem and makes decisions captains make about adding free agents way simpler. Furthermore, rankings from previous warring seasons should be archived and attached to free agents like a credential. Hell, past rankings should really be a PROFILE FIELD on this goddam website. Let's make that happen.

 

Dropping:

Dropping players without their consent is super fucking lame. If you want to drop someone who is inactive, fucking contact them and ask them if they plan to become more active again. Just ask @Malcolm. Players signed up for this shit to have fun. If you acquired or drafted a bad player, too bad.

 

Roster Requirements:

If we are going to cross format contaminate our teams and wars, at least set minimum roster requirements for number of goat players and number of current players. Perhaps, a team should have enough players of each format so that another team could conceivably win by taking all of the other team's hearts in any particular format. For example, if teams win wars by taking 6 hearts, you are required to have at least 3 current players and 3 goat players on your roster at all times.

 

Dodging:

Stop giving a fuck about dodging. Weaker players don't want to let their teams down and lose multiple hearts in a short span of time, especially to the same opponent. Forcing them to play does nobody any favors and it doesn't make the competition any more legitimate. You cannot police it unless you demand 24/7 access to captains discord conversations. Even then, there are loopholes. Use the tag system on discord (brilliant btw), the PM system on the main site, and stop trying to catch people dodging.

 

Hearts:

Sweeping is bullcrap. Targeting is bullcrap (furthermore it's a bitch to police). Use a better heart system so this doesn't matter as much. Cap the number of hearts any player can take from a team (it should never be more than half the total number of hearts needed to win the war imo). Stop crying about wars going unfinished. Make the wars last longer or allow teams to play 2 wars at once. Use reasonable tie-breakers.

 

Hey, Detox deliberately gamed the system and got caught. Let's change the system now so nobody can do what we did. All while sprinkling in some hate on mark to deflect the blame that should be on us

 

Also you forgot to mention the banning of players who message other teams' captains to collude wars 0-6 to knock certain threatening teams out of their playoff spot

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Jazz    4587
1 hour ago, ACP said:

No, I'm not scrapping the concept of teams. Saying something blatantly false a million times in a row doesn't make it true.

 

Yes, you are lol.

 

> super teams are allowed

> no standard rules for team wars

> no incentive to war or take it seriously other than individual ranking

> warring is not special

 

The system you created is basically battle city with discord groups for friends who would share ideas anyway.

 

You took something that was pretty good and instead of trying to make it better you scrapped it.

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Jazz    4587
17 minutes ago, Mustang said:

 

Hey, Detox deliberately gamed the system and got caught. Let's change the system now so nobody can do what we did. All while sprinkling in some hate on mark to deflect the blame that should be on us

 

Also you forgot to mention the banning of players who message other teams' captains to collude wars 0-6 to knock certain threatening teams out of their playoff spot

 

This is a thread for being constructive, try it out. Being destructive and bitter all the time gets old.

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+ACP+    33845

Super teams are allowed because the overwhelming feedback I've received is that people want to be able to form their own teams. People on one hand like to say that DGZ is dead, but then when people tell me "I want to bring myself and 10 other friends to DGZ to war, but only if we can be on the same team" I'm doing something terrible by wanting to cater to them.

 

There are no standard rules for wars because I want to allow people to do what they want. If people want to do crossfire instead of heart wars, I don't care. If they want to play current, goats, or a combination of both in the same war, I don't care. I don't want to have to do a bunch of guesswork to figure out precisely what format people like the best; I'd rather just let the community figure it out for themselves. There probably will be a particular format that becomes common practice to follow; I just don't want to force my own preferences on anyone.

 

"No incentive to war" - Then why did people war for 12 years consequently under the same system? This is pure paranoia that everyone is just going to wake up one day and decide not to be on a team anymore. Why would the community just randomly decide to change 12 years of prior behavior? As psychologists often say, "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." Not one single person has told me that they plan to only play individually (not on a team) next season.

 

"Warring is not special." - Oh, so warring is not special just because you say so? Great argument. Team play will be rewarded at the end of the every season. I'm just not sure on the specifics yet.

 

Your argument basically just comes down to, "But ACP, by giving people more options and letting them do what they want, they might collectively decide to do something that is not exactly what I want." For people who thought that I was way to authoritative and heavy-handed last season, some of you guys seem to be responding quite poorly to the inherently democratic ideals of the new system.

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+mark    2885

I mean we already had 3 clear "superteams" this season imo. Yes it sucks if you have a team of only bad players, but imo it only takes 1 good player on a team + dedication and willingness to improve from the others for a team to become good. Especially if you can keep teams for longer than 1 season, thinking long term will be rewarded and eventually any team that tries hard enough can become the best team imo. 

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Jazz    4587
10 minutes ago, ACP said:

Super teams are allowed because the overwhelming feedback I've received is that people want to be able to form their own teams. People on one hand like to say that DGZ is dead, but then when people tell me "I want to bring myself and 10 other friends to DGZ to war, but only if we can be on the same team" I'm doing something terrible by wanting to cater to them.

 

There are no standard rules for wars because I want to allow people to do what they want. If people want to do crossfire instead of heart wars, I don't care. If they want to play current, goats, or a combination of both in the same war, I don't care. I don't want to have to do a bunch of guesswork to figure out precisely what format people like the best; I'd rather just let the community figure it out for themselves. There probably will be a particular format that becomes common practice to follow; I just don't want to force my own preferences on anyone.

 

"No incentive to war" - Then why did people war for 12 years consequently under the same system? This is pure paranoia that everyone is just going to wake up one day and decide not to be on a team anymore. Why would the community just randomly decide to change 12 years of prior behavior? As psychologists often say, "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." Not one single person has told me that they plan to only play individually (not on a team) next season.

 

"Warring is not special." - Oh, so warring is not special just because you say so? Great argument. Team play will be rewarded at the end of the every season. I'm just not sure on the specifics yet.

 

Your argument basically just comes down to, "But ACP, by giving people more options and letting them do what they want, they might collectively decide to do something that is not exactly what I want." For people who thought that I was way to authoritative and heavy-handed last season, some of you guys seem to be responding quite poorly to the inherently democratic ideals of the new system.

 

Allowing people to team with their friends is the best argument you've got here, but captains will preferentially draft their friends as well.

 

If there are no standards then there are no valid comparisons. Any competition needs a standard or it is not a legitimate competition.

 

Warring will likely peter out under your proposed system. Please see: the 2015 warring season. This proposal is VERY similar to that seasons's structure.  It was quite successful at first and then rapidly died out. The only incentive to play in that system was to improve one's personal ranking (which gets old). There was no incentive to work as a team or win as a team. Your interpretation of the past is different from mine.

 

Warring is not special because it means nothing. War matches are weighted the same as single matches. You might as well grind the singles ladder.

 

Very misleading use of the term 'democratic ideals' btw

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Jazz    4587
5 minutes ago, mark said:

I mean we already had 3 clear "superteams" this season imo. Yes it sucks if you have a team of only bad players, but imo it only takes 1 good player on a team + dedication and willingness to improve from the others for a team to become good. Especially if you can keep teams for longer than 1 season, thinking long term will be rewarded and eventually any team that tries hard enough can become the best team imo. 

 

Mostly because of trades and a flawed free agency system

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+ACP+    33845
15 minutes ago, Jazz said:

If there are no standards then there are no valid comparisons. Any competition needs a standard or it is not a legitimate competition.

There will be some standards, but they will not be as strict as season 1. For example, you can't play a 3-heart-point war. But many of the details will be left to the teams, such as scheduling.

15 minutes ago, Jazz said:

Warring will likely peter out under your proposed system. Please see: the 2015 warring season. This proposal is VERY similar to that seasons's structure.  It was quite successful at first and then rapidly died out. The only incentive to play in that system was to improve one's personal ranking (which gets old). There was no incentive to work as a team or win as a team. Your interpretation of the past is different from mine.

2015 warring failed because the people in charge did not really actively manage it, iirc. But in the last "golden age of warring" in 2012, the system was almost identical to what I am proposing for season 2. There were two playoffs at the end of every season; a team playoff and a singles playoff, which is exactly what I plan to do for season 2. The downfall was the fact that Brady literally had a monopoly on every single good DGZ player by the end of the system, which I'm going to prevent by not allowing one person to own multiple teams.

15 minutes ago, Jazz said:

Warring is not special because it means nothing. War matches are weighted the same as single matches. You might as well grind the singles ladder.

I could easily just reverse that argument. "Singles matches are not special because they mean nothing. War matches are weighted the same as single matches. You might as well grind the warring ladder." In reality, they both count the same, but warring matches will still have way more hype/drama than singles, which is what will attract people to warring, as usual. Then of course there's the fact that people will want to be in the team playoffs.

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Gospel    396
43 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

Yes, you are lol.

 

> super teams are allowed

> no standard rules for team wars

> no incentive to war or take it seriously other than individual ranking

> warring is not special

 

The system you created is basically battle city with discord groups for friends who would share ideas anyway.

 

You took something that was pretty good and instead of trying to make it better you scrapped it.

 

>super teams are allowed

In my opinion a super team is good. It gives people a common "enemy" while also giving people something to reach for. As long as they are not able to just keep stockpiling people onto a team and forcing the creation of new teams of free agents to beat on, I do not see a problem there.

 

>no standard rules for team wars

There were always rules for team wars but many options to choose from, Captains used to choose what was best for their team and slowly that went the way of hearts just because the activity was not there. Allowing active teams to do crossfire or other war formats, gives more power to teams with captains who are willing to look at their team and determine their best chance of winning.

 

>no incentive to war or take it seriously other than individual ranking

This was my biggest problem with the system, however ACP has stated that there will be team tournaments still which gives incentives for teams to win. I have no idea if other E-Sports do this but in Smite they just had an invitational tournament where top players were able to hold a mini-draft including other pro players and have some fun format games. They had rules for drafting based on teams and geographic location and even something like that could be extrapolated for a fun prize for a tournament, to give meaning to things.

 

>warring is not special

The way I am understanding it, if you solely have entered because you want the prize from TGA than warring would not seem that special. You can just grind all day and increase your chances that way. If you want to compete in the team tournaments or if you are interested in being apart of something bigger than yourself, that is where warring would come in. As long as there is a reason to be in a team, warring will matter. Even without the same power and responsibility in the team leaders hands, they will still have a big part in cultivating the fact that warring is special. So hopefully some good people are able to step up and do this season right and treat it special.

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JAPANESE GOBLIN    2157

jazz acting like his diminished interest is 1) some shocking new development and not the norm this entire season 2) more than just him personally

 

dont worry guys he always posts with logic and common sense

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+mmf+    23072
2 hours ago, mark said:

I mean we already had 3 clear "superteams" this season imo. Yes it sucks if you have a team of only bad players, but imo it only takes 1 good player on a team + dedication and willingness to improve from the others for a team to become good. Especially if you can keep teams for longer than 1 season, thinking long term will be rewarded and eventually any team that tries hard enough can become the best team imo. 

keep in mind that when people say "superteam" here they're in part talking about multimanaging, not just "really good teams." if im understanding correctly, with the new rules, i could hypothetically get six buddies to sign up, make a team out of them, establish a puppet captain, and start scrimming against them with ESPN,  and it really wouldn't mess anything up other than possibly establishing a monopoly on the forum title (lol). Open to being corrected if my interpretation is wrong

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Jazz    4587
1 hour ago, JAPANESE GOBLIN said:

jazz acting like his diminished interest is 1) some shocking new development and not the norm this entire season 2) more than just him personally

 

dont worry guys he always posts with logic and common sense

 

I lost interest for a wide variety of reasons and we don't need to rehash them or dwell on this fact when we could have a productive conversation about improving the system instead.

 

Your trolling is getting old. At this point, your argument is that I am not allowed to have an opinion because of my lack of activity in this particular season, which is ironic because I've been quite active in each of the previous 4 seasons and done quite a lot for competitive goat format / past format warring on this site.

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+mark    2885
3 hours ago, mmf said:

keep in mind that when people say "superteam" here they're in part talking about multimanaging, not just "really good teams." if im understanding correctly, with the new rules, i could hypothetically get six buddies to sign up, make a team out of them, establish a puppet captain, and start scrimming against them with ESPN,  and it really wouldn't mess anything up other than possibly establishing a monopoly on the forum title (lol). Open to being corrected if my interpretation is wrong

 

ye let it be known that I am 100% for building longterm teams and improving and Im 100% against some teams picking up any player from other teams that start becoming good

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+mark    2885
6 hours ago, Jazz said:

 

Mostly because of trades and a flawed free agency system

 

Also because of a few other factors:
 

- knowing the player base (so you know who to pick)

- going out of your way to get to know how good players are
- making strategical decisions

- caring enough to the point where your team is motivated and will play instead of dropping

 

etc.


personally if we were ever doing drafting again I'd prefer if every player just makes themselves "known" (doesnt have to be IRL name per se, but some combination of: accurate description of dn/db name, amount of tops, previous warring experience, etc. would do). 

I think a system has to be practical and benefit the site first and foremost, so I don't like any restrictions that limit activity / sign-ups (caps on amount of wins, blocking mid season sign-ups, banning trades entirely, allowing dodging, making wars longer and not caring if they don't finish). those are all very radical changes that can do a lot of harm and cause a lot of activity problems, which is one of the main problems of season 1. some teams were completely inactive at times, like i'm not talking about 1-2 people sweeping, I'm talking about literally having 0 players to play to the point where no matches can in fact be played. for example look at gentlemans club vs dboyz 2-0, and there are more examples like this. I don't think sweeping or anything that promotes activity should be looked down upon tbh, you're essentially punishing people for being active and winning. some way to balance between 2 formats sounds fair though, for example I thought about just having 4 hearts per format (so to win, you need to win in goat 4x and in current 4x). 

 

but yea suggest things that improve activity, not that limit it 

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Soul    7979

Activity

- Monitor activity on a player + team basis. Would need to look into it, but maybe technically it's possible in discord to create a separate channel (#WarRoom) and monitor the time spent in the channel per each person (you can hide this channel from anyone not in a team).

- Force team captains to fix their rosters to meet a certain activity threshold (more difficult to estimate what this should be).

* Force all games to be PUBLIC. Self-explanatory. The NBA, MLB, NFL or even eSports leagues do not have their games in private. Why would you allow yours to be? Defeats the entire purpose.

 

This solves the whole sniping and bottlenecking issue I see happening, ala All The Outs having 1 legitimate choice for goat games the majority of the season.

 

Punishments

- Hit DRP & Hearts before disqualifying people. DRP is admittedly less important, so giving team captains who collude, etc a heart or multi-heart loss would be much more of a punishment without killing activity.

 

Trading

- No trades or drafts after mid-season. 

- Force all trades through a review and create a solid criteria for vetting trades.

 

I think besides the pain points I mentioned, warring is not all bad imo. As far as prize support, I'd go w an earlier suggestion to split it amongst individual and team successes.

 

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Soul    7979

Forgot to mention the "preferred" thing too. Creates too much ambiguity in activity dispute situations. Create 3 classes if you must. Current/Advanced, Retro/Goat, and I guess a "Flex" option. Flex would still need to reasonably play for both and not hide behind the whole "preferred" thing. 

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+Satchmo+    3183
On 8/10/2017 at 10:54 AM, Jazz said:

You took something that was pretty good and instead of trying to make it better you scrapped it.

Wasn't everyone defending Kris for "abusing the flaws in the system to show you the flaws"? I'm not tripping right? So if the System was "pretty good", why would Kris feel the need to exploit every avenue to show the gaps to Allen?

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Jazz    4587
5 hours ago, Satchmo said:

Wasn't everyone defending Kris for "abusing the flaws in the system to show you the flaws"? I'm not tripping right? So if the System was "pretty good", why would Kris feel the need to exploit every avenue to show the gaps to Allen?

 

I don't think this has anything to do with Kris. Kris doesn't get credit for exploiting loopholes, only an excuse. Just close the loopholes and move on.

 

I think it was pretty good in theory, but pretty flawed in practice because of the loopholes with the rules with regard to free agents and trades. You expected people not to take it so seriously and exploit them, but guess what, if you take it super seriously, it's human nature when it comes to a competition to do everything in your power to win. You can't expect people to not take it this seriously by default. You need to legislate it out of existence with good rules if you don't want those things to occur.

 

I'm also fairly critical of war council for feeling the need to DQ and forcibly disband teams as the default punishment.

 

Season 1 got a lot right, but the way I'm seeing Season 2 shape up, it is removing the parts I actually liked that could be fixed with small adjustments as opposed to a sledge hammer.

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