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World Chalice Deck Discussion

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»victor    6400

I don't know if people have caught onto this yet, but:

 

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We're so focused on the Gofu (although we do have it at 3 in the TCG) + Ferret play, that goes: Link Spider, Proxy Dragon, Normal Summon Ferret, bring out 2 monsters, there's also the LV 6 interaction with only Link Spider or Imduk needed.

 

The LV 6 interaction of Ferret is really useful because you can Emergency Teleport, Unexpected Dai, or Swing of Memories to make Imduk without using your Normal Summon, and so you get the extra WC Normal Summon + the Normal Summon for Ferret, who gets you Malicious towards further Links.

 

I think the Swing interaction with Imduk not using the Normal Summon, to have it for Lee, who searches World Legacy, which can be Tributed for with your extra WC Summon, gives the deck even better recovery than before.

 

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On the note of Waterfront, there's also another way to punish True Draco, with:

 

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You can play Set Rotation, give yourself Waterfront and them Secret Village, and they can't activate Spells.

 

Or you can make Ib and play it yourself (Ib protects itself so it's relatively harder to out the lock).

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+Mascis    4553

Interactions I've seen with ferret rely on getting maxx c and zeph, using zeph as a link and then bouncing maxx back to your hand 

 

you can also get ash / ogre and bounce them back with Firewall from you GY after you've used them to link

 

also I rather get reborn tengu and another monster with ferret than just getting a Mali 

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+Mascis    4553

The set rotation to give them secret village is actually pretty interesting tbh 

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Dango    824

except they just flip the secret village and set their field spell. I considered siding village in invoked and after testing they would do that almost every time.

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dexer008    805
On 9/5/2017 at 10:46 AM, Dango said:

except they just flip the secret village and set their field spell. I considered siding village in invoked and after testing they would do that almost every time.

 

yeah this, it goes for every deck, the only way to bypass it is with a field with a mandatory effect they can't fulfill or magical mid-breaker field

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»victor    6400
6 hours ago, dexer008 said:

 

yeah this, it goes for every deck, the only way to bypass it is with a field with a mandatory effect they can't fulfill or magical mid-breaker field

 

For what it's worth, Magical Mid-Breaker Field might be worth it in World Chalice because Ningirsu doesn't target or destroy, but you're pretty much using Firewall Dragon to recycle hand traps for disruption because it targets (although you can use it outside MP1).

 

But you can still take advantage of the Special Summon effect, e.g. being able to go into and protect a Firewall Kristya field with MMBF is nice, cuz they can't Kaiju it away.

 

You can also Aurum it back, and protect it with Ib, so it has more value.

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Blacklisted    1329
On 9/5/2017 at 5:24 AM, Mascis said:

Interactions I've seen with ferret rely on getting maxx c and zeph, using zeph as a link and then bouncing maxx back to your hand 

 

you can also get ash / ogre and bounce them back with Firewall from you GY after you've used them to link

 

also I rather get reborn tengu and another monster with ferret than just getting a Mali 

 

Anytime I see ferret I just assume they go into ZOo + Maxx and boucne maxx with Firewall and have a zoo combo

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+Mascis    4553

I think it's smarter to save your firewalls for bouncing your opponent's stuff fwiw

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knives1990    262

I've been using this deck extensively the past few weeks and went to a regional last weekend where I lost final round and got 12th. I was using suboptimal cards but I learned some stuff about the deck and it helped me decide what to concentrate my efforts on. I am a firm believer in pot of desires, however every person I talk to disagrees. Am I the only one seeing the merits behind it?

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Brandis72    32
2 hours ago, knives1990 said:

I've been using this deck extensively the past few weeks and went to a regional last weekend where I lost final round and got 12th. I was using suboptimal cards but I learned some stuff about the deck and it helped me decide what to concentrate my efforts on. I am a firm believer in pot of desires, however every person I talk to disagrees. Am I the only one seeing the merits behind it?

For Desires to work you have to use it midcombo; after you've resolved Chalice and Venus. Otherwise, you risk banishing Beckoneds and Shine Balls and that can end up making you lose a massive amount of potential advantage off of Venus/Emeral (and, in the future, Baguska). I think that in current (Venus) grail builds the card is winmore and is basically a brick as you can't use it as a reliable starter; however, Desires could become staple in future grail builds that rely less on engines with large deckbuilding constraints, in which case it would be good here for much the same reason it is in 1-axis D/D.

Edited by Brandis72

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»victor    6400
3 hours ago, knives1990 said:

I've been using this deck extensively the past few weeks and went to a regional last weekend where I lost final round and got 12th. I was using suboptimal cards but I learned some stuff about the deck and it helped me decide what to concentrate my efforts on. I am a firm believer in pot of desires, however every person I talk to disagrees. Am I the only one seeing the merits behind it?

 

On top of what Brandis said, if you don't say what is suboptimal and what you want to concentrate on, how can we help you? (Channeling Allen, write a tournament report or even a blurb of your findings)

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knives1990    262

Imo desires can unbrick your hand or draw into power cards and that's all I look at. If I bricked, then I lost anyways and no other card can turn the hand into something that can be used that wouldn't already be ran.

 

when I say suboptimal cards, for that event I ran invoked cards and this deck definitely needs all of its extra deck dedicated to seraphinite, emeral, and link monsters.

 

exodius has been phenomenal for me and I give you credit for bringing it up originally. It's the reset button the deck needs to threaten another full combo (after your initial full combo you have the pieces like world legacy world chalice primed in the grave to banish and add as well as lee to put back in hand if you want). It can also be used midway through a turn, putting back shineballs which can be huge. Fantastic card 

 

hitting on desires again, the card is very much needed in the deck. You can brick far too often for you to not be using this card. You run 7 lees and 3 world legacy world chalice which are you're engine starters, but even then you may still not see them, or have a strong combination of cards to take advantage of the lee etc. my deck is streamlined to see lee/world legacy, runs max gofu and Venus to supplement fields with link monster materials, and has autowins in kristya. Right now there is very little I would change after playing the regional and evaluating card strength within this deck. Circling back, desires is only going to do good things for you. You need to see combinations of lee/world legacy and venus/gofu and there is nothing you can use to do it better. Like I said earlier, if you totally brick what are you using in place of desires that is going to make that hand more playable? And when you do combo off without the need to use desires, it's there to dig to the power cards like kristya, exodius, and soul charge etc. to accompany desires, I include upstart goblin as well. 

 

For reference this is what I'm using atm

 

3 venus

3 shine ball

3 gofu

3 lee

3 world legacy

3 beckoned

3 exodius

3 kristya

2 guardragon

2 garnet

2 gameciel

1 maxx c

 

3 brilliant fusion

3 pot of desires

1 upstart

1 foolish

1 soul charge

 

3 Ib

2 imduk

2 ningirsu

2 firewall

2 proxy

1 link spider

1 auram 

1 emeral

1 seraphinite

 

my goals with the deck are as follows in order

 

1. Have the best possible way to see lee or world legacy world chalice. By maxing on the cards to do this, I've accomplished this goal to the best of my ability. 3 lee, 3 world legacy, 3 brilliant, 1 foolish gives me the odds to see at least one in my opening hand. And these are the "engine starters" which is why this is the mints important goal for me

 

2. Have as many ways to summon multiple monsters easily to the field to supplement goal 1, thus creating huge combos and big fields that retain a lot of card advantage. 3 Venus 3 gofu and if I already have access to lee/world legacy, 3 brilliant fusion or foolish can access venus as well so you have good odds to see this goal come to fruition too.

 

3. Once I've included the best cards that can achieve my first two goals, including as many cards as are feasible within the deck, my 3rd goal is to include the necessary pieces to do your combos. This includes beckoned, guardragon, Garnet. I really like 2 garnet in here instead of 1 garnet 1 lazuli (and you should be running 2 gem knights) I could see myself cutting 1 beckoned possibly, but there's nothing else that really jumps out at me and worst case he's a good monster to summon off of your world chalice link monsters going to the grave. 2 guardragon is perfect because you only ever really use the banish effect once per game, and you want to be able to special one off of world legacy world chalice, so in case you have desires and banish one you can still have the other in deck.

 

4. This is where I put both power cards and more consistency cards to finish out the deck. Some people use the kyoutou waterfront to make a lockdown, I like to be able to run desires/upstart for more consistency and single cards like kristya to lock out my opponent instead of a bigger maindeck investment. And there are some nice plays when kristya is on the field to dodge a board wipe and bring kristya back to the field. And by virtue of having firewalls special summon effect, kristya is easy to summon. I've already expanded on exodius, but this is where I include him. And the reason for 3/3 kristya/exodius is simply because I want to see the cards. 

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Brandis72    32

If you insist on using Desires, then you may as well change the build: get rid of Venus, because it's absolutely terrible with Desires and straight-up negs for each shine ball you banish. Kristya is also a monstrous brick and I'm pretty surprised you're still running it (the card is dead without Venus, and you have no draw engine to get rid of it).

You can try to replace it with a Predaplant engine, which is a little bit less vulnerable to desires (although it further stresses the pain of banishing both of your garnets); I personally don't think this downgrade in engine quality is worth the addition of three copies of a once per duel pot of greed, but then again.

Uh... what!? You're running three Exodius to reset your deck's engine-thinning, and yet you're not running even a single copy of Aegis? Aegis is searchable with Chalice and is one of the best ways to try to come back if your opponent manages to break your board (although, let's be honest, you're probably losing anyways if this happens... which is why I would argue that exodius is not worth it because it's just a +0, but then again).

Edited by Brandis72

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+Mascis    4553

Here is an idea brandis, desires after you use Venus 

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knives1990    262

I don't get the arguments against desires. People over complicate the card so often. It unbricks your hand, or supplements it by comboing off and digging for power cards. Nothing else that isn't already in the deck can do this. I'm sure it was a typo on your part, but desires is once per turn not once per duel. Not that you ever play it more than once per game, you just want to see it

 

exodius is so good and does everything I want a card to do. Similar to kristya, it doesn't require other cards to be good. You just want to see it.

on that note, you only special summon kristya via firewall dragons effect and again you want to see the card because it autowins you the game

 

 

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»victor    6400

Unfortunately, Kristya doesn't do much vs True Draco, and you don't have much cards bigger than a Master Peace.

 

If Kristya was as boss as you make it out to be, Darklords would see more play (well, they are in the OCG, with Trickstars:

, but I digress).

11 hours ago, knives1990 said:

Some people use the kyoutou waterfront to make a lockdown

 

Yes, this is true, but the bigger reason for Kaijus in the TCG, is Master Peace. Because you already have Firewall Dragon, World Legacy - World Chalice, and other effects that hurt on Extra Deck Summons (see Blind Obliteration in a Link deck, which can't be MBAASed, or Overworked because of Missus Radiant), it's not necessarily Zoodiacs that hurt you.

 

Stuff like Radian and Thunder King, the Lightningstrike Kaiju are more versatile as removal and you can drop them to OTK, and those aren't quick effects so you can give it to them.

 

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I think if you are going to play Kristya, Kozmo Dark Destroyer could be considered, because it is 3000 ATK, and can't be targeted. Not sure how far you want to take the Firewall is a Kozmo Pilot analogy but Forerunner can recoup Venus LP, and float DD. It makes COTH better in the deck, and being able to SS Lee to search World Legacy and having the Summon to Tribute it is worth it, also makes World Legacy a kind of Raioh, if my rulings are right.

 

And COTH is the best anti-Kaiju right? They gave you a monster and you brought your monster back. Grave to main monster zone is also worth noting.

 

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Desires is not too bad in here, because you can Omega your World Legacy and Guardragon to get use out of them. More ways to make Omega with Mathematician (+Dandylion), is something to consider.

 

It's worth noting that if you can dump Lee with Foolish or Math, it can unbrick your in hand Kristya, or monster you want in grave, for COTH, for instance.

 

----

 

TLDR: if we can find more solutions for True Draco, World Chalice can compete, if not thrive.

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knives1990    262

To be fair, kristya is really bad against Draco but it literally auto wins every other matchup and it being one card makes the main deck choice easy for me. I do side heavily against Draco decks, I just don't really like the amount of cards that are needed for waterfront. It's something I'll continue to mess with though, but for the time being I'm ok with just siding more for Draco and making my main good against everything else.

 

The main reason why I'm not really focusing too much mental effort in accounting for every single matchup in the main is because we should be getting a banlist fairly soon. So instead I'm working on theoretical ideas on the deck that should apply across formats; stuff like desires for more consistency, gofu and Venus maxed for bigger link plays that sort of thing. I've tested the waterfront build and I'll say that I would like to play 5 waterfronts vs 3 or 4, and while I was interested in slumber +3-4 kaijus, I think it would be both easier and better to just side slumbered and keep the main deck kaiju number to 2-3

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knives1990    262
30 minutes ago, dexer008 said:

If you're running gofu then why not tech a beelze in the extra for true draco? Gofu+chosen= beelze.

Because chosen is a much worse beckoned that has a support card with teleport, but not nearly enough of a reason to use chosen

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dexer008    805

k, use venus then? Surely there's some lv3's you can use, I don't play the deck but was just reading people are having hard time against draco.

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Brandis72    32
On 9/8/2017 at 6:18 PM, Mascis said:

Here is an idea brandis, desires after you use Venus 

The problem is that... if you drew Venus, you should already be winning anyways unless they ogre.

What this deck needs isn't ''more draws once it already has it's combo pieces''; what the deck needs is more ways to get to these combo pieces in the first place.

And, of course, when you desires into venus and notice that you just banished two shine balls... it's going to suck (likewise when you manage to make your brilliant dead).

The decks that DO play desires (Zoo and TD; in INOV format stuff like ABC and BEWD) run triples of all their engine pieces, and don't have a bunch of garnets; so they only truly feel the good side unless they get extremely unlucky (it works in Zoo despite rat because the deck always has access to rat; Grail does not always have access to Venus and Brilliant, so preemptive activation can't be relied upon).

Edited by Brandis72

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knives1990    262

That's the thing tho, if you don't open good desires can get you there. It's not a super high percentage that you'll brick and draw desires to begin with, but now we are narrowing it down further by bricking, having desires, and also banishing too many combo cards. It really doesn't happen that often. And when you consider that this deck has the highest ceiling when you combo, the fact that desires can help you get the cards necessary is only a positive when deck building. If both decks open well, world chalice wins through the insane fields + 5-6 cards in hand. No other deck can come close. Making this happen more often by playing max consistency cards (whether you're afraid of banishing good stuff or not) is going to be optimal.

 

A lot of decks need desires in different ways. Zoodiac uses it not because they play 3 of each monster, but because it supplements their field with more traps after theyve combod. Dracos use it usually before they start searching to get the right pieces to make a good play and follow up. But both of these decks use the card first and foremost to reduce bricking. This is the primary reason to run the damn card. There's always chances to banish cards you wanted but if you bricked, desires gives you a chance to turn it into a playable hand, bottom line. Imo every deck bar a select few should be running 3 desires

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Nate1080    1224

This deck is looking a bit better now with Zoo basically dead, Draco hurt a bit and Rescue Rabbit to 3 (6 if you want to play the Rescue search card).

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DukeLukewarm    121
6 minutes ago, Nate1080 said:

This deck is looking a bit better now with Zoo basically dead, Draco hurt a bit and Rescue Rabbit to 3 (6 if you want to play the Rescue search card).

But Emeral tho. 

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Nate1080    1224

I suppose but Firewall is a thing, correct? I feel like having more Rabbits help in making stronger boards.

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