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+Mascis    4496

Having access to rabbit and ferret with rescute gives you a new direction for the deck 

 

I'll probably have to revise the OP now to warrant the changes but emeral ban should not hurt combining ability as it was basically just an extender. We still draw cards with ningrisu 

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knives1990    262

It was goodbfor putting shineballs back to make your fields bigger and easier to make. Exodius is still busted

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Brandis72    25

Yeah, Emeral being hit sucks, but it's not like it makes the deck unplayable... just less broken (although you can argue its resiliency issues made it never good in the first place).

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for Baguska to come out...

Edited by Brandis72

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Brandis72    25

https://imgur.com/rhB5PtZ

 

I think this is a pretty good idea going forwards; seeing as Venus is no longer the +6 it once was, Predaplants actually seem straight-up better, in addition to working far more nicely with desires than Venus did. Meliae/Dandy/Lonefire also open up some disgusting plays, and, although I'm not sure on this, StarGrail could probably create a semi-consistent FTK with plants (Amaryllis + 10 Plants in GY + Bomber Dragon on field) with the right specs.

Edited by Brandis72

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Brandis72    25
On 9/25/2017 at 11:36 AM, Brandis72 said:

https://imgur.com/rhB5PtZ

 

I think this is a pretty good idea going forwards; seeing as Venus is no longer the +6 it once was, Predaplants actually seem straight-up better, in addition to working far more nicely with desires than Venus did. Meliae/Dandy/Lonefire also open up some disgusting plays, and, although I'm not sure on this, StarGrail could probably create a semi-consistent FTK with plants (Amaryllis + 10 Plants in GY + Bomber Dragon on field) with the right specs.

NEVER MIND: I'M AN IDIOT AND MISREAD MELIAE: YOU NEED EARTH MATERIALS, SO PREDAPLANTS CAN'T GO INTO IT.

So... yeah... back to Invoker, I guess.

Also I don't think rabbit is all that great: a +1 isn't much for this deck when compared to the obscene +3 of Venus or the hand fixing and tutorable +1 (Brilliant is pretty dope) of Predaplants.

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mark    3105
1 hour ago, Brandis72 said:

NEVER MIND: I'M AN IDIOT AND MISREAD MELIAE: YOU NEED EARTH MATERIALS, SO PREDAPLANTS CAN'T GO INTO IT.

So... yeah... back to Invoker, I guess.

Also I don't think rabbit is all that great: a +1 isn't much for this deck when compared to the obscene +3 of Venus or the hand fixing and tutorable +1 (Brilliant is pretty dope) of Predaplants.

I love predaplants but there are a lot of problems. Investing 2 cards + normal summon, requires to run a shitload of bricks (and 2 of each to support desires / make it more consistent), going second it practically never resolves but going first there's still hand traps as well to fuck your day up.

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Brandis72    25
25 minutes ago, mark said:

I love predaplants but there are a lot of problems. Investing 2 cards + normal summon, requires to run a shitload of bricks (and 2 of each to support desires / make it more consistent), going second it practically never resolves but going first there's still hand traps as well to fuck your day up.

I don't care about ghost ogre (as long as I still search brilliant I'm fine), but ash does effectively ruin me.

At the same time, predaplants, unlike venus, can actually be ran with desires, and are also noticeably more consistent thanks to lonefire (which can even be used to tutor dandylion from time to time in cases where you can SS lonefire with firewall).

Now that emeral is gone venus has lost much of it's power and I don't think that it's much better than predaplants at this point; they each have their ups and downs, and both die to some kind of disruption. My reason for preferring predaplants is that they actually lead to your engine with brilliant into Lee (and even lazuli), which leads to greater total plusses than the initial +3 of venus if you didn't hard draw your grail CA engine.

 

I mean, this deck is vulnerable to disruption no matter what you do with it; may as well at least give it enough explosive power to win sometimes.

 

Edited by Brandis72

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mark    3105
32 minutes ago, Brandis72 said:

I don't care about ghost ogre (as long as I still search brilliant I'm fine), but ash does effectively ruin me.

At the same time, predaplants, unlike venus, can actually be ran with desires, and are also noticeably more consistent thanks to lonefire (which can even be used to tutor dandylion from time to time in cases where you can SS lonefire with firewall).

Now that emeral is gone venus has lost much of it's power and I don't think that it's much better than predaplants at this point; they each have their ups and downs, and both die to some kind of disruption. My reason for preferring predaplants is that they actually lead to your engine with brilliant into Lee (and even lazuli), which leads to greater total plusses than the initial +3 of venus if you didn't hard draw your grail CA engine.

 

I mean, this deck is vulnerable to disruption no matter what you do with it; may as well at least give it enough explosive power to win sometimes.

 

Ok so this post solves 0 of the problems i addressed. Being able to play through a hand trap that no one plays and losing to a hand trap that people play isn't a good thing. Neither is "another engine sucking". Between Ash, going second, drawing wrong combinations (of cobra garnet and all the cards you play but don't want to draw) that makes your hand unplayable (or, playing 2 of each which makes scorpio more consistent but reduces the amount of bricks), as well as the times where you'd banish them with desires, you're practically never going to resolve this combo. 

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»victor    6400

I think the way to build the deck now is to focus on Dandylion, since we now have more Mathematician to dump it, to get the deck going.

 

The Debris Dragon interaction with Dandylion is a 1 card Firewall Dragon, by way of 2 Proxy Dragons, so that gives the deck something new.

 

The focus on Beckoned can drop without Daigusto Emeral, and that let's you play Chosen or Crowned instead (Crowned can be revived by Debris as well, just saying).

 

If you are to play Beckoned, I think you'd want to play Re-Cover for Naturia Beast since Wavering Eyes, Dragon Ravine, too many good Spells came back, and are around nowadays.

 

With Links, you're going to burn through the ED anyway, and the LP loss could help fuel Rescute.

------------

 

I think Swing of Memories is the notable card interaction this deck has because it's 1 card that is an Imduk + WC Summon without using your Normal Summon, and it's live irrespective of your field, so the deck should be building around that, I feel.

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Brandis72    25

Dandylion is admittedly a very strong card that I want to be able to use (and am using as a secondary lonefire target; occasionally comes in handy to upgrade firewall loops by recycling lonefire and SSing it with firewall midcombo, and sometimes also gets dumped by foolish when I already have Lee), but debris dragon is unfortunately far too slow for this deck (even though its potential power is massive), and mathematician isn't quite broken enough to be a good starter.

 

@mark I think you severely underestimate just how consistent the deck is; I'm running 2 obsidians, 1 lazuli, 3 lonefire, 3 scorpio, and 2 darling cobras, and I legitimately don't mind drawing ''dead cards'' because I can just discard them (Lee, Scorpio), sometimes even for card advantage in the case of obsidian.

A resolved scorpio into brilliant is so powerful that it singlehandedly makes Missus Radiant + Seraphinite + Lee (with a discard) and Beckoned in hand, in addition to not even costing my normal summon because brilliant gets me another one.

Gofu by itself gets me into play starters, and a drawn Lee or Legacy puts in a lot of work in any hand that I draw them in.

 

The reason StarGrail isn't viable isn't because it bricks; it's because it has resiliency issues (which are unfixable because no matter which combo engine I choose to run, ash will singlehandedly render my fields so mediocre (if they're not hitting Scorpio, they're hitting Legacy and that makes me -2(-3 counting guardragon), thus rendering it pretty difficult to end on three firewalls); any good deck will just laugh at my board, and unless I draw my handtraps, I will automatically lose (and even then I'm probably doomed anyways)).

If I run venus, I will still scoop to ash in the long run, and will also suffer a large consistency loss because it's a significantly worse enabler now, and also has the disadvantage of being horrid with desires and also, unlike scorpio, isn't tutorable by lonefire to increase my chances of hitting it.

 

The only good answer to ''Predaplants are bad'' in the context of this deck is that THIS DECK is bad, which it is; but I still find it fun to try and build it to its highest potential.

Edited by Brandis72

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mark    3105

 I've tested predaplants extensively and came up with a deck that could open kristya beast 80% of the time (pre-link) while facing no disruption and going first. Believe me, I know how to make it "consistent". I also played zoodiac Predaplant true draco in norden format which could make the nutiest fields. Cool to play at locals but at any kind of remotely competitive level you're going to face ash and disruption going second as well as drawing into the bricks or banishing them off desires (or, limiting yourself to not playing 3 pot of greeds when other decks are). It has nothing to do with consistency or world chalice, it has to do with how vulnerable the card unfortunately is because it'd be very abusable in multiple decks it it weren't for these problems. 

 

Now I don't want to spend X pages trashing predaplants cause there are more productive things ways to go at this, but I think it's important it you ever want to reach a competive level of thinking that you're going to accept that we live in a meta where hand traps exist, traps exist, and every good monster has disruption effects in their opponent's turn. Playing through these layers of disruption is how you should approach deckbuilding: going first you want as many layers of defense as possible while going second you want to be able to push through as many layers of plays as possible. You are and always will be limited to only 1 normal summon per turn, so that's 1 layer at most. 

Edited by mark
Misread the obsidian part
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Brandis72    25

Yeah; the deck is just bad, and I agree with you there.

My point was just to say that SGrail needs low-resiliency engines to do anything, and that removing them would literally make the deck incapable of winning, rather than having very low chances of winning due to opposing disruption.

 

The only reason why I'm on this thread is for funsies; the deck is obviously not competitive, and fails current's ''Jace Test''.

Speaking of which, any ideas on making the deck discussion forums have tiers written out on each archetype thread?

Could be helpful to someone, somewhere, I'm sure.

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mark    3105

You could make a theory and philisophy thread where people can discuss tiers, this has been done in the past and been succesful. With the focus on discussing. Please don't just post a "tier list" for the sake of it. 

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knives1990    262

I played this deck at 2 different regionals and since every other deck is slower by default, siding and maining the right cards make going 2nd not terrible and the deck automatically plays around ash by playing correctly. Linking into auram with legacy + imduk/Ib, ningirsu cl1, imduk/Ib CL2, etc. Venus also gets around ash by itself.

 

the problem with this deck is literally just that when it bricks, you lose. When you get hit with a hand trap at the right time (by playing this deck for awhile I've found the most harmful use of their hsndtrap is Ogre on auram effect or ningirsu effect, as they both require them to point to a zone to resolve) you lose.

 

i got rid of the deck when I got my 2nd loss last round because I bricked, again, and lost. It was interesting in that anytime I opened any 2 of venus/brilliant/lee/legacy/foolish, I won that game handily. Anytime I bricked badly it was over and felt terrible losing like that. Nowadays you're deck needs to be a lot more consistent than this one, because if you're opening play doesn't leave disruption on board, their opening play will and it'll beat you. And unfortunately there's no way to really make disruption without having those great hands; can't make a defensive card in a really bad hand here while you can in other decks

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Brandis72    25
7 hours ago, knives1990 said:

I played this deck at 2 different regionals and since every other deck is slower by default, siding and maining the right cards make going 2nd not terrible and the deck automatically plays around ash by playing correctly. Linking into auram with legacy + imduk/Ib, ningirsu cl1, imduk/Ib CL2, etc. Venus also gets around ash by itself.

 

the problem with this deck is literally just that when it bricks, you lose. When you get hit with a hand trap at the right time (by playing this deck for awhile I've found the most harmful use of their hsndtrap is Ogre on auram effect or ningirsu effect, as they both require them to point to a zone to resolve) you lose.

 

i got rid of the deck when I got my 2nd loss last round because I bricked, again, and lost. It was interesting in that anytime I opened any 2 of venus/brilliant/lee/legacy/foolish, I won that game handily. Anytime I bricked badly it was over and felt terrible losing like that. Nowadays you're deck needs to be a lot more consistent than this one, because if you're opening play doesn't leave disruption on board, their opening play will and it'll beat you. And unfortunately there's no way to really make disruption without having those great hands; can't make a defensive card in a really bad hand here while you can in other decks

Yeah, Venus is pretty inconsistent. At the same time, if you run Predaplants, which ARE consistent (and literally get you to lee in addition to providing massive plusses), you literally scoop to Ash almost every time they have it and you don't hard draw brilliant.

At this point I'm not entirely sure this deck will ever be truly viable, as by the time they finish off SPYRAL, some other insane deck will probably have come out.

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Brandis72    25

Venus really wasn't superior in my experience post Emeral ban: the card doesn't get you to your engine; it just plusses, and it also has the severe disadvantage of having massive antisynergy with desires, and fairly low consistency.

When I tested Predaplants, they were far more consistent; with 3 lonefire 3 scorpio 2 cobra you're effectively running twice the amount of ''non-engine combo starters'', and resolved scorpio literally wins games by itself since tutoring brilliant also tutors lee and gives me free monsters (lazuli to add the beckoned you summoned off of invoker for your missus radiant).

All venus was doing is giving me more plusses without actually properly fixing my engine: for venus to actually make your hand good, you need to also draw Lee/Legacy/Brilliant, whereas with scorpio/lonefire, I don't even really need to draw anything else besides having some other monsters in hand.

 

However, running predaplants makes you scoop to ash... but isn't it better to be able to consistently make all your plays at the cost of losing to handtraps than it is to resist ash better but then lose a bunch of games because your hands don't do anything good?

 

I mean, regardless of the build you run, the deck is still not seriously competitively viable, but I do find that predaplants make the deck noticeably better by virtue of not bricking everywhere.

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knives1990    262

I'd probably run both engines if I were to include predaplants, mainly because you can access lee with them but your turn still stops short because you need to be able to special summon that lee instead of returning it and using the additional normal on it. You need to resolve world legacy when you combo for the big fields, this is why venus is better. They both serve a good purpose, venus just does it better. 

 

For instance you normal Scorpio it resolves, now you have 2 predaplants with brilliant. You brilliant dumping lee but then what's the play after that?

 

If anything this predaplant idea makes me want to include Double Summons a lot more than before, and I was already contemplating it. This can be the extender we are looking for to have more ways to unbrick hands while also adding more summoning layers into the deck. I see you're points on predaplants, being 1 more card (+ discard) that can "access" the engine. It just doesn't do it by itself. You still need an additional combo card to make the huge fields, which is the same weakness venus has

Edited by knives1990

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Brandis72    25
On 9/29/2017 at 11:37 AM, knives1990 said:

I'd probably run both engines if I were to include predaplants, mainly because you can access lee with them but your turn still stops short because you need to be able to special summon that lee instead of returning it and using the additional normal on it. You need to resolve world legacy when you combo for the big fields, this is why venus is better. They both serve a good purpose, venus just does it better. 

 

For instance you normal Scorpio it resolves, now you have 2 predaplants with brilliant. You brilliant dumping lee but then what's the play after that?

 

If anything this predaplant idea makes me want to include Double Summons a lot more than before, and I was already contemplating it. This can be the extender we are looking for to have more ways to unbrick hands while also adding more summoning layers into the deck. I see you're points on predaplants, being 1 more card (+ discard) that can "access" the engine. It just doesn't do it by itself. You still need an additional combo card to make the huge fields, which is the same weakness venus has

The beginning of my combo with predaplant and nothing else to extend goes like this:

scorpio pitch for cobra add brilliant; invoker special beckoned; summon missus radiant; brilliant for seraph (lazuli/lee) and lazuli add beckoned that was summoned off invoker + lee recycle self (discard anything); normal Lee (w/seraphinite) add Legacy; link Ib with serpahinite+radiant; link Auram with Ib+Lee (Ib summon beckoned from hand); link Imduk with Beckonek; tribute summon Imduk for Chalice; Auram Chalice for Ib (Chalice for 2 Guardragon); link Proxy with 2 Guardragon (in the middle zone; adjacent to Ib); Guardragon for Beckoned; link for Imduk with Beckoned (rightmost zone); Guardragon for Beckoned; link for Imduk with Beckoned (to the left of the Eve); link Ningirsu with the Imduk to the left and the Proxy; draw 3 cards and end with Ningirsu in middle zone, auram at the top, eve to the left, and imduk to the right.

 

And all of this took nothing but Scorpio/Lonefire in hand + any two discards for Scorpio+Lee. (this does require 3 imduks though, or 2 imduks and a link spider, along with invoker, 1 proxy dragon, and missus radiant)

 

Can Venus do any of that by itself?

@knives1990

Edited by Brandis72

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Brandis72    25

Apparently both me and everything single opponent I played against are fools; this is impossible because seraphinite (which I thought was a light for some reason) and missus cannot be linked into Ib. However, this combo works perfectly the moment code talker/akashic magician (or any other link 2 with a down/diagonal arrow that's semi-generic) come out, and is pretty obscene for something that only requires one specific card (which is searchable) in hand to work.

Here's my decklist post COTD (akashic makes the combo work and that makes the deck both consistent and powerful when not ashed). https://imgur.com/cnE39Rj

Edited by Brandis72

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»victor    6400

I think as far as Link decks go, the XYZ Remora field spam interaction is superior to a lot of what this deck can do, as the conventional build is currently constructed and conceived of.

 

So that's where the need to take advantages this deck has, comes in.

 

300?cb=20120609012457300?cb=20170118212557

 

I'm not sure why people are sleeping on this card, because it and Gofu are pretty much the only proactive mass Token generators we have.

 

The fact that Dark Eruption can retrieve Phantom Skyblaster, Gofu, World Legacy, and Exodius means it's the most amazing toolbox card, so you'll never run out plays, and playing 12+ DARKs, means you can play Allure of Darkness. It's much more impactful than Draconnet (another DARK monster who fits that niche) because you don't need to play Crowned, it doesn't affect the Main Deck like Predaplants (immune to ABJS), and doesn't cost life, so you can play Soul Charge, and MBAAS for GOSR.

 

It spits out LV 4 Tokens so that opens up Trishula access, note that there are a lot of good Tuners, Contract + Lamia is a Special Summon GUB, Re-Cover, etc.

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Brandis72    25
On 10/1/2017 at 8:23 PM, victor said:

I think as far as Link decks go, the XYZ Remora field spam interaction is superior to a lot of what this deck can do, as the conventional build is currently constructed and conceived of.

 

So that's where the need to take advantages this deck has, comes in.

 

300?cb=20120609012457300?cb=20170118212557

 

I'm not sure why people are sleeping on this card, because it and Gofu are pretty much the only proactive mass Token generators we have.

 

The fact that Dark Eruption can retrieve Phantom Skyblaster, Gofu, World Legacy, and Exodius means it's the most amazing toolbox card, so you'll never run out plays, and playing 12+ DARKs, means you can play Allure of Darkness. It's much more impactful than Draconnet (another DARK monster who fits that niche) because you don't need to play Crowned, it doesn't affect the Main Deck like Predaplants (immune to ABJS), and doesn't cost life, so you can play Soul Charge, and MBAAS for GOSR.

 

It spits out LV 4 Tokens so that opens up Trishula access, note that there are a lot of good Tuners, Contract + Lamia is a Special Summon GUB, Re-Cover, etc.

This card isn't bad, but the fact that it requires a normal summon, and also an established field to get all that much value out of it basically makes it unviable.

Eruption to grind is pointless because trying to grind with StarGrail will result in an automatic loss as your whole ED will deplete over the course of 1/2 turns, and your vulnerability to disruption makes it impossible to do much going second.

 

@knives1990 damn... wasn't ever told of this either; that... actually just kinda kills the deck and literally makes it scoop to ogre and struggle very hard wish ash (or actually die to ash if you run preda), while also straight-up losing to most disruption going second.

Now it's not even kinda bad, it's actually terrible, and I literally cannot win against anything good going second provided they know how the deck works.

Edited by Brandis72

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knives1990    262
32 minutes ago, Brandis72 said:

This card isn't bad, but the fact that it requires a normal summon, and also an established field to get all that much value out of it basically makes it unviable.

Eruption to grind is pointless because trying to grind with StarGrail will result in an automatic loss as your whole ED will deplete over the course of 1/2 turns, and your vulnerability to disruption makes it impossible to do much going second.

 

@knives1990 damn... wasn't ever told of this either; that... actually just kinda kills the deck and literally makes it scoop to ogre and struggle very hard wish ash (or actually die to ash if you run preda), while also straight-up losing to most disruption going second.

Now it's not even kinda bad, it's actually terrible, and I literally cannot win against anything good going second provided they know how the deck works.

It's a very glass cannon kind of deck, one of the reasons I dropped it. New support doesn't seem too incredible/what the deck needs either. I do still think there's a way to build around this as the format isn't very fast outside of pendulums, but siding heavy for it and draco which I believe to be the best decks could solve that problem. The real issue is figuring out a way (if there is one) to have the most consistent openings combined with multiple layers of plays. I don't have the deck anymore but it dropped in price quite a bit so I may pick it back up and try some different stuff out. I would think that Double Summon could be a good answer to combine Predaplants, Venus, and World Chalice summons into something pretty potent. TBF Ogre had fallen out of favor quite a bit, so we should only really be worried about Ash when we go first, but there's more ways around Ash than there are for Ogre which is a boon for us as well.

 

Going second is basically auto lose. When I was playing the deck at regionals, I found that main decking kaijus (not waterfront) was really good at winning going second. I mained no backrow removal, but did max on ash, Ogre, and the lone maxx c. Going forward I think max and ash are enough, but I'd also be looking to include predaplants so there is deck space issues here. Btw the whole Imduk/seraphinite OPT thing is why I opt for Venus because combining it with Brilliant/Lee/foolish/World Legacy gives you the big boards. You just make Imduk and either Link until you can special Lee from hand then use additional summon for World Legacy. Or you have Lee in grave, make Imduk, use Lee grave eff to send Imduk then Imduk effect to special the Lee. Make another Imduk to additional summon Legacy. Basically you're always needing to additional summon World Legacy, and playing Double summon can give you more ways to do this so you have more ways to go off turn one, and more options to play through disruption.

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»victor    6400
17 hours ago, Brandis72 said:

This card isn't bad, but the fact that it requires a normal summon, and also an established field to get all that much value out of it basically makes it unviable.

Eruption to grind is pointless because trying to grind with StarGrail will result in an automatic loss as your whole ED will deplete over the course of 1/2 turns, and your vulnerability to disruption makes it impossible to do much going second.

 

 

16 hours ago, knives1990 said:

It's a very glass cannon kind of deck, one of the reasons I dropped it. New support doesn't seem too incredible/what the deck needs either. I do still think there's a way to build around this as the format isn't very fast outside of pendulums, but siding heavy for it and draco which I believe to be the best decks could solve that problem. The real issue is figuring out a way (if there is one) to have the most consistent openings combined with multiple layers of plays. I don't have the deck anymore but it dropped in price quite a bit so I may pick it back up and try some different stuff out. I would think that Double Summon could be a good answer to combine Predaplants, Venus, and World Chalice summons into something pretty potent. TBF Ogre had fallen out of favor quite a bit, so we should only really be worried about Ash when we go first, but there's more ways around Ash than there are for Ogre which is a boon for us as well.

 

Going second is basically auto lose. When I was playing the deck at regionals, I found that main decking kaijus (not waterfront) was really good at winning going second. I mained no backrow removal, but did max on ash, Ogre, and the lone maxx c. Going forward I think max and ash are enough, but I'd also be looking to include predaplants so there is deck space issues here. Btw the whole Imduk/seraphinite OPT thing is why I opt for Venus because combining it with Brilliant/Lee/foolish/World Legacy gives you the big boards. You just make Imduk and either Link until you can special Lee from hand then use additional summon for World Legacy. Or you have Lee in grave, make Imduk, use Lee grave eff to send Imduk then Imduk effect to special the Lee. Make another Imduk to additional summon Legacy. Basically you're always needing to additional summon World Legacy, and playing Double summon can give you more ways to do this so you have more ways to go off turn one, and more options to play through disruption.

 

I think this thinking is outdated because:

 

300?cb=20170707110659

 

is back. This lets you tutor Exodius from deck.

 

The vulnerability to disruption going second, could be addressed because Drident is banned and you have MBAAS and Pianissimo for GOSR, while Ash can't stop Phantom Skyblaster.

 

Keep in mind, Book of Eclipse, is pretty one-sided since our Links are immune and we can even push with a Link Monster field. Also, worth noting, you can turn off Kristya, and continue Link Summoning if that comes up.

 

Just wanted to point out with all those DARKs and LIGHTs, we have 2 BLS now, and that ends games easily with 3 Honest.

 

----------

 

It seems the OCG has caught onto the Herald of Orange Light interaction, and how Lee is infinite Fairy fodder, and moreso because EBE is a Herald tutor.

 

See this 2nd place deck in a 71 person tournament, just this week:

 

Quote

 

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