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DGZ Mafia Mafia Afterthread - Scum Wins

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Nelrick    2392

Also i wanted to post this image in the thread.

 

>tfw you realize that markus flavor was the best part of the game

 

Screenshot_14.png

Edited by Nelrick

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Faint    5854

Also i really didnt know how to play the "not knowing my own role or ability or allignment"

 

Apologies for getting in peoples way for that lel

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mark    3105

I had fun 

 

Was really glad with the team 

 

Game was bastard / role crazy but that was the theme of the game so oh well, it was equally frustrating for scum when everyone started "confirming" each other with the steal ability and what not. I think we made solid nightkills and had good team play to recover from a bad day 1, and it took town long before they realized my restriction 

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+Sophocles    3075
2 hours ago, Wunterslaus said:

 

Feedback on my game and ^this^ are always welcome :)

 

At LYLO, go back and read what dead people said, especially the scummers.

I can't believe no one brought up that mark voted Tyranno in the Weenie Hut thread when there was already a vote on tyranno. Just the interaction between those two meant there was no way for tyranno to be scum imo but even if you think that's not definitive proof it's a pretty big thing not to mention.

you also did a bunch of ability talk when the OP explicitly mentioned to not assume anything. :unsure:

Your play was decent day two but scummy day three, wouldn't call you 'transparent town'. 

 

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Jazz    5327
2 hours ago, confuse rei said:

I really dont understand why jazz has gotten so salty about this game i tried to understand in the spectators chat but i gave up

 

Its a fucking game get over it,  drama is only acceptable in game

 

 

Because I had a limited time to play. I expected to be active for the first couple days and then have to float due to IRL stuff. The first couple days, n0 and d1, were ruined by bad hosting. When I sign up for a mafia game and roll town, I expect that I get to fucking play when it starts. On Day 2, I really didn't have time to play, but I wanted to make an impact on the game and help my team. I then proceeded to receive no help at all killing scum from anyone including you. Your posting was fine, your voting strategy, or lack thereof, was shit. So I wasted my time and I didn't get what I signed up for, which is why I'm so intensely critical of Zapp. I wanted to play mafia, I didn't get to play and I subsequently got shat on by my faction. Fuck everyone.

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Faint    5854

jazz go open pornhub and wank out your salt instead of doing it here

 

posi vibes guys

 

can we all just appreciate that i died BEFORE DAY ONE EVEN STARTED and  when i got subbed in I WASN'T TOLD MY FACTION OR POWER. if anyone has reason to say they "werent allowed to play mafia this game" it was me, but who the fuck cares - it was fun all the same

 

next game lets go ^_^

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confuse rei    5608

Noone ever responded to my posts because noone was around,  but if i ever put a single vote on someone noone had a vote on when noone was around! That would have changed everything! 

 

Only thing that would have changed is you thinking im  scum for putting a completely irrelevant vote when it was silver vs od

 

Like wtf are you talking about

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»Logic    2033
42 minutes ago, Faint said:

jazz go open pornhub and wank out your salt instead of doing it here

 

posi vibes guys

 

can we all just appreciate that i died BEFORE DAY ONE EVEN STARTED and  when i got subbed in I WASN'T TOLD MY FACTION OR POWER. if anyone has reason to say they "werent allowed to play mafia this game" it was me, but who the fuck cares - it was fun all the same

 

next game lets go ^_^

I'm glad you had fun. :]

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Jazz    5327
1 hour ago, confuse rei said:

Noone ever responded to my posts because noone was around,  but if i ever put a single vote on someone noone had a vote on when noone was around! That would have changed everything! 

 

Only thing that would have changed is you thinking im  scum for putting a completely irrelevant vote when it was silver vs od

 

Like wtf are you talking about

 

You failing to lead Town as one of the stronger town players with a clue by voting earlier in the phase. You were around. You were posting. You didn't help give weight to the mark train I started and nobody considered it after you logged off. That's on you.

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Jazz    5327
1 hour ago, Faint said:

jazz go open pornhub and wank out your salt instead of doing it here

 

posi vibes guys

 

can we all just appreciate that i died BEFORE DAY ONE EVEN STARTED and  when i got subbed in I WASN'T TOLD MY FACTION OR POWER. if anyone has reason to say they "werent allowed to play mafia this game" it was me, but who the fuck cares - it was fun all the same

 

next game lets go ^_^

 

Useless filler post

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OD Superman    1122

I just want to point out that this was the post that JC said sent their Discord chat into a tizzy, and after reading back, I see that it was also almost universally panned by the spectator chat as being a bad play at the time. I happen to disagree and think it swung the game in town's favor by finally giving everyone actionable evidence and a clear town leader, so I just want those who criticized me to reexamine the options town had at that point and see if there was any better play to make at that point.

 

Admittedly I don't have enough experience playing Mafia to say authoritatively whether you should do this or that, but I think what a lot of people didn't understand at that point was just how bad town was at cooperating with each other and how their inactivity was fucking everything up. Also it seemed to me that no one factored in to their thinking that up to 3 people participating in the conversation by that point were worth lynching, no one backread, and everyone was just sort of focusing in on the most lynchable target based on the discussion on that page of discussion instead of asking themselves what scum would most likely be posting in this situation.

 

For example, it was super frustrating to defend my scumread of Mark against Gem, where Gem just ignored my posts and plainly said I hadn't made an argument for why he was scum, and then the town response was basically to not bother reading my posts. They just saw what Gem said and assumed it was the same reaction they would've had if they had read my posts even though I was confirmed town by that point. Even when I replied with something like, "Well everyone has reasons why they were town except Mark, Gem, and JC," no one but Walia seemed to respect that process of elimination, which was also incredibly frustrating.

 

To top it off, I legitimately thought I had more time to make my case after the Mark vote, and I was surprised when it turned out my "immorality" only lasted for a day, which goes back to Jazz's crticisms re abilities, transparency, etc, which are just hard to follow generally, and impossible to follow if you're just floating. I think that level of switcheroos just breeds inactivity since it becomes prohibitively more difficult to follow everything once you start missing a few things, especially when you start the game with "post, but don't post anything serious" which also discourages activity.

 

Anyway overall scum needed a lot of things to go right to win, but that's exactly what happened. Good job, guys. All that means is this game was educational and there are lessons to learn going forward, and now it's just a question of whether anyone wants to bother learning those lessons, or if we should consider banning F-tier players who don't escape F-tier after a game or two from future games.

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»Logic    2033
28 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

Useless filler post

Most important post in this thread, to be honest.

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Faint    5854
1 hour ago, Sophocles said:

that reminds me - @iSlickz move Faint to F tier 

 

died before the game even started lmfao trash

I deserve a new tier

 

Petition for "U" tier in my name

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Faint    5854
41 minutes ago, OD Superman said:

I just want to point out that this was the post that JC said sent their Discord chat into a tizzy, and after reading back, I see that it was also almost universally panned by the spectator chat as being a bad play at the time. I happen to disagree and think it swung the game in town's favor by finally giving everyone actionable evidence and a clear town leader, so I just want those who criticized me to reexamine the options town had at that point and see if there was any better play to make at that point.

 

Admittedly I don't have enough experience playing Mafia to say authoritatively whether you should do this or that, but I think what a lot of people didn't understand at that point was just how bad town was at cooperating with each other and how their inactivity was fucking everything up. Also it seemed to me that no one factored in to their thinking that up to 3 people participating in the conversation by that point were worth lynching, no one backread, and everyone was just sort of focusing in on the most lynchable target based on the discussion on that page of discussion instead of asking themselves what scum would most likely be posting in this situation.

 

For example, it was super frustrating to defend my scumread of Mark against Gem, where Gem just ignored my posts and plainly said I hadn't made an argument for why he was scum, and then the town response was basically to not bother reading my posts. They just saw what Gem said and assumed it was the same reaction they would've had if they had read my posts even though I was confirmed town by that point. Even when I replied with something like, "Well everyone has reasons why they were town except Mark, Gem, and JC," no one but Walia seemed to respect that process of elimination, which was also incredibly frustrating.

 

To top it off, I legitimately thought I had more time to make my case after the Mark vote, and I was surprised when it turned out my "immorality" only lasted for a day, which goes back to Jazz's crticisms re abilities, transparency, etc, which are just hard to follow generally, and impossible to follow if you're just floating. I think that level of switcheroos just breeds inactivity since it becomes prohibitively more difficult to follow everything once you start missing a few things, especially when you start the game with "post, but don't post anything serious" which also discourages activity.

 

Anyway overall scum needed a lot of things to go right to win, but that's exactly what happened. Good job, guys. All that means is this game was educational and there are lessons to learn going forward, and now it's just a question of whether anyone wants to bother learning those lessons, or if we should consider banning F-tier players who don't escape F-tier after a game or two from future games.

 

Negged because banning people for being bad is a slippery fucking slope

 

If we start doing that, how long till the section totally dies off?

 

Part of being a good player is in ability to influence others, bad players included

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OD Superman    1122
2 minutes ago, Faint said:

 

Negged because banning people for being bad is a slippery fucking slope

 

If we start doing that, how long till the section totally dies off?

 

Part of being a good player is in ability to influence others, bad players included

There's an important distinction between being bad and staying bad, and between thinking you're always right and actively trying to get better, so it's important to make clear that I wouldn't suggest excluding anyone just because they're bad. I just think Mafia is, as near as I can tell, a team-based game (even if you don't know always know who else is on your team) so assigning hopeless players to either team swings the game too much in the other team's favor.

 

If just outright banning them from the game isn't an option then I'd suggest considering assigning F-tier players alternative win conditions (i.e. they win if they're the last NK) or otherwise loose affiliations (i.e. making them mafia without being allowed to know who the rest of the mafia are or discuss anything with them).

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+Gemstone Mine    2596

that doesn't encourage them to play better, it encourages them to play differently from everyone else.

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+Sophocles    3075

The tier list is just Slickz' opinion btw, that's why it's called the Arbitrary List. I'm mostly being tongue in cheeck when I reference it 

Let's not have a mudslinging match about who is bad enough to get banned (it's JC btw)

 

Idk what you're frustrated about kris, mark was lynched the day Gemstone disagreed with you.

Consider also the possibility that your case wasn't as convincing as you thought it was.

 

Look at Crei and Malcolm's games: They are identified as a threat to scum and nightkilled early not (only) because they are right about the scumteam, but because they're really good at getting the people they want dead lynched. When they're right, they make it really hard for scum to steer the lynch away from them.

Laying out your case clearly and convincing people is a skill in its own. Yeah ideally everyone would backread and factcheck everything but there's time restraints and ppl can make mistakes or just straight up not put in the effort after a bad day - and I guarantee that happens to everyone.

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»JC.    4973
31 minutes ago, Sophocles said:

The tier list is just Slickz' opinion btw, that's why it's called the Arbitrary List. I'm mostly being tongue in cheeck when I reference it 

Let's not have a mudslinging match about who is bad enough to get banned (it's JC btw)

 

hey buddy, the mafia section has a strict no toxicity policy. you've been banned for the next 17,342 games.

 

cheers,

- jc

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OD Superman    1122
15 minutes ago, Sophocles said:

The tier list is just Slickz' opinion btw, that's why it's called the Arbitrary List. I'm mostly being tongue in cheeck when I reference it 

Let's not have a mudslinging match about who is bad enough to get banned (it's JC btw)

 

Idk what you're frustrated about kris, mark was lynched the day Gemstone disagreed with you.*

Consider also the possibility that your case wasn't as convincing as you thought it was.

 

Look at Crei and Malcolm's games: They are identified as a threat to scum and nightkilled early not (only) because they are right about the scumteam, but because they're really good at getting the people they want dead lynched. When they're right, they make it really hard for scum to steer the lynch away from them.

Laying out your case clearly and convincing people is a skill in its own. Yeah ideally everyone would backread and factcheck everything but there's time restraints and ppl can make mistakes or just straight up not put in the effort after a bad day - and I guarantee that happens to everyone.

For both games I've played (one I subbed into) I've been accused of being scum sooner than I was ever able to post anything, which when coupled with a generally inattentive team, made it really hard for me to convince others of anything this game until I revealed my ability and grabbed the game by the balls, but even then only Walia and scum were paying attention. Like this is a game of imperfect info so I don't know why I literally have to survive a NK and have my allegiance be revealed before others accept that I'm town while at the same time other townies think a neg rep is somehow actionable. I mean it's not even that I didn't make a good case for myself either, as Crei explained to Jazz after the game why I was obvious town. Again, it's just that some players didn't pay enough attention and honestly, other townies suffered from the same problem as me. It's why Crei, despite probably being a good player, didn't actually convince anyone to lynch his picks like you said a good player could. It's why town lost and it's why I'm frustrated, because I left the game thinking we had it in the bag and then town just threw the win away. So all I'm saying is F-tier players (on a general list that isn't just one person's opinion) should get some special treatment to make them better rather than be allowed to fuck up whatever team they're assigned to, which I think would actually make the games overall more enjoyable for everyone. 

*You're forgetting the part where I pushed to lynch Mark before Faint and everyone just read Gem's response as reasonable without going back and reading my arguments re: Mark. You can tell they thought nothing of it too because after Mark was flipped scum, no one had it in their memory that Gem was using that opportunity to protect Mark.

 

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Jazz    5327

Kris it's your second game. You played fine. My one piece of advice, which you have probably already realized, is to try to make more independent reads on players rather than associative reads that assume you already know one player's alignment (jazz = scum). As you saw, if you get that one keystone read wrong, it screws up the rest of your conclusions, you have to start from scratch, and it makes you look bad. I frequently made the same mistake when I started playing, no worries.

 

I pushed to kill you because you were a null read compared to the other realistic choice who I had down on my list as a town read. Then you listed 3 targets, one being me, the other two being two of my strongest town reads, and I couldn't work with you. Had you engaged with me and asked me questions about why I had broken and walia as strong town, perhaps we could have seen eye to eye and gotten mark or faint that day.

 

Maybe I made a mistake, and I should have kept pushing mark even if it didn't go anywhere, but I don't like to tunnel that early in the game (several players hadn't even made meaningful posts yet due to game mechanics). But I wanted you to post something substantive to properly evaluate you on and I said as much. Your big post centered on me being scum was too little too late from my perspective, and it showed me your lynch choices had no overlap with mine whatsoever.

 

I am confident if we had longer phases Town would have done better. 24 hour day phases are really not good for the level of activity in this community. I was discouraged to see that most people voted for 24/24 and I was one of the few players who wanted to do 48/24.

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mark    3105
1 hour ago, OD Superman said:There's an important distinction between being bad and staying bad, and between thinking you're always right and actively trying to get better, so it's important to make clear that I wouldn't suggest excluding anyone just because they're bad. I just think Mafia is, as near as I can tell, a team-based game (even if you don't know always know who else is on your team) so assigning hopeless players to either team swings the game too much in the other team's favor. 

If just outright banning them from the game isn't an option then I'd suggest considering assigning F-tier players alternative win conditions (i.e. they win if they're the last NK) or otherwise loose affiliations (i.e. making them mafia without being allowed to know who the rest of the mafia are or discuss anything with them).

Yeah we don't ban people for being bad on dgz, unless if it's like someone literally signing up to not play 

 

That said there's another solution, that'll achieve the same thing, and it's what I want to achieve with the invitational matrix6. On other sites there are newbie games and regular games. We don't have enough newbies for this but we can do it another way. For example you run 2 games (starting with matrix6 which is a 9-player simple set-up, but it can be used for bigger games as well eventually). 

 

Matrix6 invitational only:

This would be for people that have proven to have played a few games seriously. In this game you'd be expected to meet some kind of standard subjectively decided by the host and if you just quota float you'll be subbed out or you won't be invited to the next game. 

 

People that are either new, or need more guidance (as well as people you'd call F tier), would play in; 

 

Matrix 6 newbie mixed game:

This game would have at least 3 experienced players that are willing to explain things and encourage (even newer or worse players) + it's open to everyone (newbies, F tier players). It's still expected that you try and play seriously, but this game will be more about learning and less about winning  

 

This achieves the same goal you want to achieve (as, once you've proven yourself, and you've done a good job so far despite having only played 2 games), you could plau the invitational only with other serious people, where anyone can still join the newbie mixed game. 

 

I don't intend this to be 1 game only, I suggest this structure as a long term solution to the problem we're facing (some people can't keep up with others and continuously become the scapegoat for it), so I hope the mafioso will approve and encourage this, or, that the community will at least consider it and give serious feedback on it

 

Banning "bad" players is clearly not done imo

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Jazz    5327

This game was exceptionally hard to convince players to kill scum:

 

1) nelrick killed instantly with almost no discussion. I didn't even get to make a post about why I thought he could be scum, I actually had to delete it myself because I was posting it right after I saw Zapp post "no more posting", which would have given me town cred that I needed on Day 2

2) mark has no posts to quote to demonstrate to others that he is scum

3) gemstone didn't have to play until day 2

4) JC didn't have to play until day 2

 

Start of day 2, the only realistic scum we could have lynched was mark and it was impossible to convince people. If I don't give JC and gemstone a chance to play, I look incredibly scummy, and I don't give them a chance to reveal themselves to others before they get heat. Yes, I thought JC was a lean town for mechanical reasons and he also posted well (considered slick/faint and superman, who I thought were good picks and not scummy low hanging fruit picks, appeared to analyze the game, etc). This is why I was so frustrated to find out the scum team after the game. I did not enjoy playing this game as town and I don't think I got a fair chance to do so.

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mark    3105

I think superman you also have to understand scum took a risk and pushed you hard, I gave everyone I had a private communication with reasons to scumread you. So in fact, yes, when you then decide to make a case on me it becomes harder to believe when I've already convinced everyone I'm town + nightkilled the people who didn't agree (and got lucky with Faint shooting Jazz). In general it's expected that townies are confused, trying, figuring out the game, pressuring people etc. When people call you scum it's not a read, it's a way to find out who defends you, who agrees, how you'll handle yourself under pressure. You started playing really good the day I got lynched, but if it wasn't for you and walia confirming each other you would've been the lynch (and you had 4/5 votes on you at some point, even it most of it were scum). You don't have to catch the team day 1 to be townread - but if you're showing you're trying to figure things out, it'll become easier for people to townread you, instead you were annoyed / suspicious at people like Jazz who did try to figure everything out. That said you had a very strong late game, you played well, but ye town is in the dark and if you get mislynched there's often always something you could've done about it to prevent it (although in this case it was mainly a scumpush on you). 

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