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+mark    3103

non-CA decks often play 3 e-con
 

odds they open it are 50,88% (slightly higher for their set to be econ cause it eliminates the small % of monster brick hands). odds they open it going 2nd are 60,09%. If you make plays that auto-lose vs econ you'll lose most of your games vs decent players. If you also play into mirror wall/disruption, then what do you expect their backrows to even be? 

 

you're blinded by playing vs bad players. neither the ladder or stage 1 is good playtesting at all (all good players are already kog first few days so already in stage 2): it's just for gems and reaching stage 2, that's it

 

if you have mind scan this discussion is non-existent, im talking about if you dont or if its turned off. the entire reason mind scan is good is so you dont lose to econ lol. obv if you extermination/cyclone it, or see they dont have it, you don't have to play around it lol. 

 

Im not even a very good player but I reach kog in very few games(with restart+econs), I prob win 80%+ because the field is so soft (but in wars vs decent players I'm only 3-4 rn). at higher levels people WILL be better and their backrows will be live. Point being my losses are to bricks or mirrors or going first. going 2nd you should win. If you lose X% of games vs all their backrow you're just punting games. then mind scan + extermination/cyclone look better than they are. I still play mind scan, but I won't deny it sucks going first, vs the mirror and when you brick. I'm going to try 0 extermination though cause econ seems more all-round, I'll post here how it goes

 

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Shadow Lord    285

I'm arguing why Mind Scan is superior to Restart. Yes, the proper play vs good players if you don't have Mind Scan is to assume econ is fd and play around it. But that leaves 40% of games where they don't have econ, but you're playing around it anyways, which increases the chance of you losing that match. With Mind Scan you always know if they have that  E Con, but the trade off is a slightly higher chance of bricking. I think that's well worth it, as the brick rate is only around 20% in the first 5 cards (chance you don't open a ritual or you open very spell heavy no/few ritual monsters/searchers) and restart at best cuts that in half, while Mind Scan removes all rng from knowing what backrow your opponent is playing, meaning you either have perfect knowledge of how to play around their sets, or know you don't have to worry about their sets at all.

Edited by Shadow Lord
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+mark    3103

restart would only cut it in half if you brick 50%

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Shadow Lord    285

Restart only resets your first four rather than your first 5 cards, so it's not always going to be obvious which hands are actually brick hands and which hands your next card will fix. From playing Mind Scan CA, there's a lot of hands that don't work with the first 4, but become really good with the 5th card. So without any way to know for sure what your next draw is it isn't debricking your hand as often as it could (you could easily throw back a hand of senju e con dakini benten when your 5th card is MAAR or MAR and then draw into a much worse hand).

 

My point though isn't "lol restart's bad because you could draw a worse hand" (obviously this is wrong and Restart will usually draw a better hand than what you sent back) it's that restart is slightly less good than it might appear on paper because CA includes lots of hands where the first four cards don't work but can easily become amazing with the right 5th card.

Edited by Shadow Lord
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+mark    3103

If i miss a piece and go 2nd I restart it

 

the odds of drawing good in 5 is way higher than having to topdeck 

 

point is that restart improves consistency by a lot while still allowing to play econs unlike balance 

 

I also think mind scan is better, I don’t think I recommended people to not play it. In paraliels case its just cause his deck was incomplete so he bricks way more often than full builds. With that build I’d play restart for sure 

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+mark    3103

I’m not arguing mind scan vs restart (I already gave my opinion on it, ive been arguing for mind scan probably before anywhere else here, I’m not arguing to not play it at all)

 

I’m responding to th statements “they prob don’t have econ” “you lose by playing passively” which implies you should play into everything recklessly which is completely wrong even if you get away with it now 

 

 

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Shadow Lord    285

So I think we're actually in agreement, if you don't know the opponents backrow you need to play passively so you don't lose to econ. But that's suboptimal so you should use mind scan so you only play passively when you have to rather than all the time.

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+mark    3103

I agree with that, but I will add that its sometimes optimal to take risks and that mind scan is only optimal in a backrow heavy field (I could switch back to restart any moment) 

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Shadow Lord    285

I think the current situation is basically Mind Scan CA has the best matchups against the field, basically 70%+ win rates vs everything other than the mirror. But Restart has a decent advantage in the mirror (not a giant advantage, Mind Scan removes any ability to bluff econ while the mind scan player can still bluff, and coin toss is arguably even more important than having a better hand on average meaning you can't get much better than 50% win rate in the mirror on having better hands alone) but Restart is much more vulnerable to the backrow heavy decks that mind scan can basically crush any time they don't hard brick. This could lead to an unstable equilibrium where Mind Scan CA dominates the rest of the field, but restart becomes more prevalent to improve the mirror and backrow decks come back since they have a decent, and in some cases positive matchup against restart CA (especially the case with stuff like Amazoness Burn.)

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+mark    3103

A lot of people think REZ has a favorable matchup vs CA

 

I have personally experienced that the matchup is hard as well, sometimes winnable but it really depends on draws from both sides, seems close to 50/50

 

Is there anything we can do to make the match-up favorable in case we start facing them a lot? Or any deck or cards that’s good against both CA and REZ (while still not being bad vs ninja GB AG?) 

 

So far I can only think of Enemy Controller being good vs all. Floodgate is nuts vs CA, Cosmic Cyclone is nuts vs Ninja, but neither are amazing vs REZ. 

 

I also think REZ may be a good plan B to use in case CA isn’t cutting it anymore at some point - even though it’s the best deck 

 

Also in general, I think Sphere Kuriboh could potentially become MVP in this tournament. If you start facing a lot of backrow hate (mind scan, cyclone; anti magic arrows, extermination, sergeant electro, Xing Zhen, ancient gear, Bestiari), that’s when Sphere Kuriboh will shine. It’s probably not worth buying but in case you already have them, I highly recommend playing them or keeping them in mind in any backrow heavy deck, unless you’re playing balance or something 

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Shadow Lord    285

I mean, maybe I just haven't faced good REZ players ( I think I've only played vs 1/2 post list REZ decks) but I never had trouble with them pre list, outside of econ take they have no way to deal with an idaten boosted dakini, so if you can buff Dakini up and force their econs, or have your own econ to counter theirs that should work. You can also cyclone spirit if you go first so that's not nothing.

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+mark    3103

Post list it’s tough becaus they run over dakini with 2400-3000 rez’s with beatdown and once you banish MAR it’s gone

 

you prob need to play passively to play around their backrows but the econ take OTK or Metalmorph if they tech that can be game at any point 

 

idaten boosted dakini is your strongest weapon vs them, but you wont always draw that, and if you do they can sometimes OTK you through it with insane econ / gozuki / SS 1 or 2 Rez +

beatdown plays (which arent even uncommon for them to draw into in a few turns)

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Faint    5722

Problem with mind scan over econ is that with mscan i have opened twice in 4 games with ben,ben,dankai,ben or just more monster clogs - this despute playing 4 rituals, 1 bird and 2 pet angel

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knives1990    336

To me it just makes sense to run restart or balance to always give you a playable hand. Regardless of how you make the deck, if you aren’t using one of these skills you’re going to just lose to your own deck sometimes

Edited by knives1990
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+mark    3103

If you cant see their sets you’re going to lose more games to it than bricking would 

 

Like realize it you don’t brick with mind scan you often pretty much just win because you know exactly how to play

 

faint I play 3 econ with mind scan so if you brick you can stall 

 

im not saying restart is bad, but at some point you’re going to need the info more than the consistency 

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Faint    5722
1 hour ago, mark said:

If you cant see their sets you’re going to lose more games to it than bricking would 

 

Like realize it you don’t brick with mind scan you often pretty much just win because you know exactly how to play

 

faint I play 3 econ with mind scan so if you brick you can stall 

 

im not saying restart is bad, but at some point you’re going to need the info more than the consistency 

i also play 3 econ ;)

though i see your point, i'll probably switch to scan. think i'm gonna follow your lead and lose floodgate / spellshield as well - with mindscan you dont need spellshield and floodgate is only really great vs the mirror, which 3 econ should cover

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dexer008    861

I've been away for about 2-3 days, going to hit kc cup with glad beasts cause i still don't have CA :s 

What do you think is better skill for them, balance, restart or mind scan? I run 1 Augustus so been playing restart, it's been good because I also get to shuffle back hands where I open too many monsters. I feel however I could probably fix that situation by itself by running less monsters and not running any that brick, hence why I think Mind Scan might be good. 

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Zeppelin    104
3 hours ago, dexer008 said:

I've been away for about 2-3 days, going to hit kc cup with glad beasts cause i still don't have CA :s 

What do you think is better skill for them, balance, restart or mind scan? I run 1 Augustus so been playing restart, it's been good because I also get to shuffle back hands where I open too many monsters. I feel however I could probably fix that situation by itself by running less monsters and not running any that brick, hence why I think Mind Scan might be good. 

I would run a low monster count and run balance. Do you have floodgates? 

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dexer008    861
6 hours ago, Zeppelin said:

I would run a low monster count and run balance. Do you have floodgates? 

I have the following relevant in Glads:

 

3 E-con

3 Wall of D

3 Half Counter

2 Anti-Spell Arrows

1 Floodgate

1 Impenetrable Attack

1 Curse of Anubis

1 Windstorm of Etaqua

0 Cosmic Cyclone

0 Mirror Wall

0 Half Shut 

Edited by dexer008
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Zeppelin    104
50 minutes ago, dexer008 said:

I have the following relevant in Glads:

 

3 E-con

3 Wall of D

3 Half Counter

2 Anti-Spell Arrows

1 Floodgate

1 Impenetrable Attack

1 Curse of Anubis

1 Windstorm of Etaqua

0 Cosmic Cyclone

0 Mirror Wall

0 Half Shut 

Do you have the full monster line-up? aka 3 laquari, 2 essadari? 

 

- one card I always thought would be good in glad beasts is adhesion trap hole, never ran it cause it is outclassed by floodgate but I think it would be a good fit in here if you have it, a nice budget replacement. 

Edited by Zeppelin
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dexer008    861
8 minutes ago, Zeppelin said:

Do you have the full monster line-up? aka 3 laquari, 2 essadari? 

 

- one card I always thought would be good in glad beasts is adhesion trap hole, never ran it cause it is outclassed by floodgate but I think it would be a good fit in here if you have it, a nice budget replacement. 

Yup, I have 3 of every glad beast card except andal, and maybe alexander? But the latter isn't relevant lol

I forgot to mention I have 2 forbidden chalice, 1 sphere kuriboh and 1 metalmorph on that list. Too many card that work with this deck lol. 
Adhesion actually could be a great tech, I think I have 1-2 of those, so probably will give it a whirl.   Right now my spell and trap line up has been this;

 

3 econ

2 Anti-spell arrows

2 Wall of D

1 Floodgate Trap Hole

1 Impenetrable attack

1 Curse of Anubis

1 Windstorm of Etaqua

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Zeppelin    104
1 minute ago, dexer008 said:

Yup, I have 3 of every glad beast card except andal, and maybe alexander? But the latter isn't relevant lol

I forgot to mention I have 2 forbidden chalice, 1 sphere kuriboh and 1 metalmorph on that list. Too many card that work with this deck lol. 
Adhesion actually could be a great tech, I think I have 1-2 of those, so probably will give it a whirl.   Right now my spell and trap line up has been this;

 

3 econ

2 Anti-spell arrows

2 Wall of D

1 Floodgate Trap Hole

1 Impenetrable attack

1 Curse of Anubis

1 Windstorm of Etaqua

I am finishing up with work shortly, when I get home I will post a sample decklist for you to try. Where are you in the PVP ladder? Are you at KOG yet?

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Zeppelin    104
3 minutes ago, dexer008 said:

Nah I'm still Legend 1, haven't had time lately to play much

That's good, means you will play legit stuff. Also you will probably play a shit ton of AG. Ok walking home. posting the list in about 45 min. 

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