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The Antagonist

Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

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Faint    5710
On 12/22/2017 at 2:50 PM, Sophocles said:

Sounds like I'm not gonna watch this one

I think it's still better to pretend IV V VI were the only Star Wars movies :^)

honestly, watch it

 

i get the hate, but i fucking loved what they did with kylo and the film kept me guessing the whole time - it was honestly a real rollercoaster

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Faint    5710

people are being so critical of this movie but honestly i thought it was really brave, daring and overall really good. 

 

fuck ya'll

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Mascis    4478

Idk what you all expect. If you’re looking for powerful filmmaking or a deep narrative experience you’re never going to find it in any Star Wars

 

these movies are just blockbuster popcorn flicks, always have been. If your expectations are that the movie is gonna be so good that you can’t help but cum twice during it than of course you’re going to hate it when it’s over

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Sophocles    2948

The original trilogy has solid narrative qualities (luke-sunset-scene.mp4) and mythology building - they aren't terribly complex films but what they do they do extremely well. There's a reason it's spawned a massive franchise and the original films are still popular today, all 3 in the IMDB top 100

 

They preserve particularily well if you just ignore the entire franchise star wars has become, because all the extra material dispells the mysticism the first trilogy was supposed to convey.

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Bazoo    5692

this is the best Star Wars film to be released in 3 decades but okay the hate is strong in this thread

 

I had my gripes with either the amount of the subplots or screen time of the subplots (not sure which) but the way this film turned plot conventions on their head, then tied those subversions to its overall theme was a huge gamble that I felt largely paid off

 

the only objective problem was perhaps amount of subplots. I had no issue with any specific subplot but I felt it just made everything too busy and they should have just left one on the chopping block and shifted it to the third film. would have allowed more attention on rey+kylo.

 

I also thought it would have been cool if rey and kylo did indeed form their own "new order," not specifically bad nor good. Or if Luke foreshadowed that he was developing a new technique or something, somehow not utilizing the force, idk. 

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+rei+    34494

good movie. Entire point was to break the "every star wars movie is the same" chain and it succeeded. def not perfect (Casino scenes were so prequel-y) but absolutely solid

 

 

I feel like i need to do a teardown of PSK's take because I feel like he's either wrong or missed the entire point

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N e J i    902

This movie was basically the same as Empire and a bit of Return (MC gets Jedi training from a recluse master and then confronts the bad guy while still trying to turn him; side characters try to infiltrate the enemy ship without success; ends in a bleak yet somewhat hopeful tone).

 

I really don't see how this "turned plot conventions on their head". Besides, because the side plots fill so much of the movie while constantly undercutting the main story (Rey + Luke + Kylo), it's pretty impossible to ignore them in the overall experience of watching the movie. The Finn + Rose plot is inexcusable in it's pointlessness (they add exactly 0 to the plot while severely damaging it).

 

I've seen the movie twice and I think it's ok but I definitely don't agree with most of the arguments I've seen from people trying to defend it.

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+rei+    34494

the entire point of the film is illustrating that heroes can

 

fail

and they need to be able to function and move on from failure - that is 'new ground' for star wars, and showing that sometimes an asshole authority figure following proper protocol is like, a good thing, and hotshot bullshittery can get people killed, and not every person you meet in prison has your back. 

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+rei+    34494

also shout outs to people saying phantom menace had great lightsaber fights. There was no emotion, no passion, it was just a dance routine. You don't get why the prequels are bad so comparing them is hilarious. 

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N e J i    902

New ground? That's exactly the point of Empire and Revenge. How is this new ground?

 

I agree that the lightsaber fights in the prequels were dance-like but at least to me there's some enjoyment in watching those set pieces. I do prefer these to the lightsaber fights in the original trilogy which by comparison were so incredibly clumsy and ugly that it almost begs to mind if those people actually knew how to yield swords. The new lightsaber fights on the other hand are exactly what I want to see as it actually feels like they're holding something dangerous and powerful.

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+rei+    34494

anyway psk i have some contention with your complaints

 

 



Turned Hux into a punching bag and the butt of every joke. In The Force Awakens, Hux was a highly ambitious character driven into conflict with Kylo to attain leadership. 
>> the power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force.
(... yes the prank call was stupid) 

The entire Casino scene was unnecessary. There was no need to gain a code breaker. DJ's only purpose was to alert the First Order to the escaping pods which was only relevant because they stated they weren't tracking small craft. Actually just Deus Ex Machina'd their own Deus Ex Machina. >> I'm not totally sure you know what Deus Ex Machina is - but deus ex machina is exclusively a non-forshadowed plot device introduced at the literal last minute with no thematic or direct buildup; Del Toro's character was clearly rolling back and forth on the moral compass all movie and ultimately did go to the highest bidder. Plot points introduced badly or without sufficient buildup could be considered bad writing, but it's literally not Deus ex machina. I think the big problem with the casino scene and the podrac- excuse me the dogguy race was the overdone prequel style CG.. and the fact that Rose was the person lecturing the former slave child soldier that sometimes kids have it rough. What the fuck. It would have been better to have Poe learning that lesson from Finn and then they could kiss at the end! 


Introduced a new character in Holdo to sacrifice themselves for the rebellion while the legendary admiral ackbar dies off screen. 
>>> He died in the same scene as Leia's hop, I'm kind of glad we didn't see it, but as the actor died between films he deserved a better sendoff. I have no issues with new important characters its been 30 years I'm glad it's not all the same faces doing everything; just like I'm glad Rey isn't related to the classic cast. It would have been better if it was like the new guy they introcued at the beginning of the last movie, but he died. 

Constant shitty jokes
>>> The prank call was fucking awful. Everything else I was okay with. BB8 was a lot less annoying this time around, I did not like him at all in TFA. 

Introduced new character in Rose who did absolutely nothing for the progression of the story and wouldn't have had any emotional tether to the movie if not for her sister dying. Forced love story between her and Finn. 
>>> Shoulda been Poe, but Rose is a generally decent character except for her whole lecture-the-child-soldier thing and the kamikazi bullshit at the end that was so fucking stupid. 


Reys parentage is answered in a brief: "Your parents were nobodies" "Oh yeah; you're right!". I think it's great that they're nobodies but the way it was revealed was shockingly bad.
>>> ? Emotional climax with the villain desperate to try and throw everything in your face in a temper tantrum because he has temper tantrums as basically an established character trait? 


Luke's lightsaber being discarded without any explanation or questioning by Luke as to how Rey came into possession of it. 
>>> *Anakin's lightsaber. He probably knew Maz had it, or he didn't - why would he care though really? Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. 

Luke tries to kill Kylo. Luke, the character that sees the light in Darth Vader has a longer-than-a-split-second decision to murder his nephew. 
>>>> were you in the bathroom when he showed his side of that story where he considered it then realized not to? Fucker had half a second of temptation and didn't give in what an asshole? 


The Leia flying scene was both a visually unbelievable disaster verging on the comical as well as a moment of complete detachment from Leia's character. 
>>>> Yes to the first bit, no to the second. Honestly it answers that Leia did at least look a bit into some force tomfoolery, but it was shot badly and should have either been done immediately after the shot, or immediately before a reveal she was still alive . I want it photoshopped into big lebowski footage. 


Holdo doesn't explain the plan to Poe for quite literally no reason. Hiding information from characters simply to hide information from the viewer. 
>>>> How much higher in rank do you think a Vice Admiral is to a fucking captain? (... then again in the US navy commander is lower than captain and he got demoted from commander to captain... either way he's a pilot and he just got a bunch of people killed. N2N basis dawg./ 

 

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+rei+    34494

the BIGGEST problem with this movie is it makes it hard to give a shit about what's coming - like is  the resistance gonna clean this all up in one movie now? 

The galactic conflict at large hit such a huge swerve it's a narrative buzzkill in a way. The hanging threads are dire, but their too vague to give a huge shit about

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Mascis    4478

It would have been a better movie if Rey and Kylo actually did just team up. The movie basically ended after that anyway, everything after that was not necessary 

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+rei+    34494

yes

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+PSK    4336
4 hours ago, rei said:

anyway psk i have some contention with your complaints

 

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 


Turned Hux into a punching bag and the butt of every joke. In The Force Awakens, Hux was a highly ambitious character driven into conflict with Kylo to attain leadership. 
>> the power to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force.
(... yes the prank call was stupid) 

The entire Casino scene was unnecessary. There was no need to gain a code breaker. DJ's only purpose was to alert the First Order to the escaping pods which was only relevant because they stated they weren't tracking small craft. Actually just Deus Ex Machina'd their own Deus Ex Machina. >> I'm not totally sure you know what Deus Ex Machina is - but deus ex machina is exclusively a non-forshadowed plot device introduced at the literal last minute with no thematic or direct buildup; Del Toro's character was clearly rolling back and forth on the moral compass all movie and ultimately did go to the highest bidder. Plot points introduced badly or without sufficient buildup could be considered bad writing, but it's literally not Deus ex machina. I think the big problem with the casino scene and the podrac- excuse me the dogguy race was the overdone prequel style CG.. and the fact that Rose was the person lecturing the former slave child soldier that sometimes kids have it rough. What the fuck. It would have been better to have Poe learning that lesson from Finn and then they could kiss at the end! 


Introduced a new character in Holdo to sacrifice themselves for the rebellion while the legendary admiral ackbar dies off screen. 
>>> He died in the same scene as Leia's hop, I'm kind of glad we didn't see it, but as the actor died between films he deserved a better sendoff. I have no issues with new important characters its been 30 years I'm glad it's not all the same faces doing everything; just like I'm glad Rey isn't related to the classic cast. It would have been better if it was like the new guy they introcued at the beginning of the last movie, but he died. 

Constant shitty jokes
>>> The prank call was fucking awful. Everything else I was okay with. BB8 was a lot less annoying this time around, I did not like him at all in TFA. 

Introduced new character in Rose who did absolutely nothing for the progression of the story and wouldn't have had any emotional tether to the movie if not for her sister dying. Forced love story between her and Finn. 
>>> Shoulda been Poe, but Rose is a generally decent character except for her whole lecture-the-child-soldier thing and the kamikazi bullshit at the end that was so fucking stupid. 


Reys parentage is answered in a brief: "Your parents were nobodies" "Oh yeah; you're right!". I think it's great that they're nobodies but the way it was revealed was shockingly bad.
>>> ? Emotional climax with the villain desperate to try and throw everything in your face in a temper tantrum because he has temper tantrums as basically an established character trait? 


Luke's lightsaber being discarded without any explanation or questioning by Luke as to how Rey came into possession of it. 
>>> *Anakin's lightsaber. He probably knew Maz had it, or he didn't - why would he care though really? Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. 

Luke tries to kill Kylo. Luke, the character that sees the light in Darth Vader has a longer-than-a-split-second decision to murder his nephew. 
>>>> were you in the bathroom when he showed his side of that story where he considered it then realized not to? Fucker had half a second of temptation and didn't give in what an asshole? 


The Leia flying scene was both a visually unbelievable disaster verging on the comical as well as a moment of complete detachment from Leia's character. 
>>>> Yes to the first bit, no to the second. Honestly it answers that Leia did at least look a bit into some force tomfoolery, but it was shot badly and should have either been done immediately after the shot, or immediately before a reveal she was still alive . I want it photoshopped into big lebowski footage. 


Holdo doesn't explain the plan to Poe for quite literally no reason. Hiding information from characters simply to hide information from the viewer. 
>>>> How much higher in rank do you think a Vice Admiral is to a fucking captain? (... then again in the US navy commander is lower than captain and he got demoted from commander to captain... either way he's a pilot and he just got a bunch of people killed. N2N basis dawg./ 

 
 

 

 


The impression I took from TFA between Hux and Kylo was a relationship close to that of Vader and Tarkin with added conflict between the two as their ideals clashed. Here it's pretty clear that Hux is the stereotypical lapdog of whoever happens to be the most powerful and any ambitions of his own will only be met by cowardly means. 
yeh you're right; deus ex machina is just wrong there. it can be said about the scanners but dj reveal was foreshadowed. my bad :x 
Issue with rey's parentage wasn't so much kylo's delivery as much as her reaction. great emphasis was placed throughout tfa and even tlj to suggest that rey's character was influenced by her seeking the answer to the question of who her parents are. (her parents being nobodies was 100% correct line to take but is it too much to ask to have her show some emotional acceptance to the fact when its quite literally haunted her for her entire life? surely they can find room for 1 to 2 lines if they can get an entire space horsie riding scene in there) 
Luke trying to kill Kylo was more than a second of temptation though. Had enough time to consider the thought, whip out his lightsaber, and power it on. Regardless of that, the dude didn't want to fight Darth Vader (the man who actually slaughtered countless people (and younglings)) but you want us to believe he even for a split second contemplated smiting his nephew after seeing some dark dreams? nah mayn.
Even with a massive difference in rank, what exactly is the reason for holdo to withhold that information? No one Poe interacted with (and the people he takes back the bridge with) knew what the plan was and I can't think of any tactical relevance to keep them in the dark so I just dont get it beyond it being an excuse to also keep the audience guessing. 

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+rei+    34494

Fighter crews are generally not privy to administrative decisions no matter what, there was a definite leak of some sort of information due to them being able to track in hyperspace so it's not unreasonable to keep people on a need-to-know basis.

 

I think you're right about Hux to a degree but once the chain of command changes the force is the dealbreaker for his role - the only time he looked dumb really was with the prank call at the beginning 

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HououinKyouma    801

These were my biggest problems with the film.

SW, especially the first was a masterclass in visual storytelling. Early Lucas was a master at this. The opening scene in SW spelled out the entire movie for the audience just by the scope of the star destroyer essentially enveloping the frame. The twin suns moment that this film hijacked, was emotionally powerful because we the audience were shown where luke currently was as well as showing us the vastness of the galaxy. The audience felt luke lounging for adventure when he gazed off into the twin sunset. The new movies didn't have any moments like this, and the worst part was them trying to capitalize on this visual dictionary from the ot without establishing one of their own. All the new films disney trilogy+prequels fall victim to this smorgasbord of vfx in space, when Lucas' ot dogfights were in the vain of ww2 dogfight films. I'm not even going to complain about the vfx vs models thing here because that just doesn't happen in the current age of film, I'm mostly complaining about how much is jammed into the frame in space which is most probably just a symptom of the current age of blockbuster films. The spinning moment with Kylo was especially egregious and just managed to give me a headache.



 

A few of my problems also stem from the current direction of cinema. For me one of the most important parts of any SW film was the score. Even the awful pt had at least one memorable score per movie (duel of fates, across the stars, battle of heroes, etc). This is probably more on modern films than the others, but this garbage philosophy of music must be invisible etc etc helps make these films so much less emotionally resonate than the ot.

 

The "marvelization" of the film has been brought up, but the ot had moments of humor in it without having shitty yo mama jokes, awful comedic timing (luke tossing the saber), domnhall gleason hamming it the fuck up etc. Domnhall Gleason is a decent actor, and its on the director to reel him in a little. The transition to this sort of films is probably can be attributed to another one of the problems I had with this film, that can honestly again be attributed to the current direction of blockbuster filmmaking, which is the damn movie by committee.

 

This film felt the most movie by committee to me out of the last 3 sw films. The had a few moments that alluded to hotbutton political issues that felt extremely manufactured and market researched. I wouldn't have minded the films taking a stab at the inequality of wealth, but when a multibillion dollar company tries to blatantly make this point in a film that contained walking cgi bags of money I felt offended as a viewer. I guess I'm in the minority of this because half of my theater was like you tell for the entire Kantobite/BDT scene and still managed to squeal whenever a porg was on screen.

 

In terms of the subversion of expectations/shitty fan theories, I would have completely been on board with this film if they actually did something interesting with that fact. If Rey/Kylo teamed up and the story felt like it was actually going in a new direction, I would have loved this film. One of my favorite points of the film was Rey overthrowing the shackles of the old jedi traditions and the subversion of my expectations for her training scene to mirror esb. As soon as we were shown the shot of Luke's xwing in the ocean I groaned. When the damn cave started whispering I felt like walking out, but Rian Johnson did something great and Rey essentially cast aside Luke, realizing that she didn't actually need Luke's help. That's how you integrate themes that are in line with current issues without making it feel so forced. That moment made me regain hope that the film was on the right path, but Rian Johnson didn't do anything with that subversion. Overall it doesn't matter if you subvert the viewer's expectations if you do nothing with it.

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+Gemstone Mine    2590
1 hour ago, rei said:

 the only time he looked dumb really was with the prank call at the beginning 

i mean, there was also the time where he was giving ren legitimately good military advice and ren threw him into the nearest wall. That's kind of a bad thing when you're trying to set up a boss, it was fine when snoke did it earlier because it looked like hux dun fuck up, but that was kind of a dealbreaker.

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+rei+    34494

I actually really liked that, and it's why i quoted vader

- the actual military talent who should be running things is not because the force wins lol star wars; and the implications there are an emotionally unstable but very powerful child is running things instead - I'm down to find out what happens next and i think it kinda turns an eye to how things have kinda worked in the past for the jedi and some of the problems with that. 

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Mascis    4478

How come Han in ep 4 says that Jedi space religion is dumb and made up but there was literally a Jedi order less than 30 years ago 

 

 

makes me think that these movies might have always been dumb 

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+rei+    34494

Yeah, prequels ruin everything but you're never gonna get around that vader had wipe out the jedi order and father luke and leia around the same time

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Bazoo    5692

Even in the times of the prequel, is the Jedi Order well-known? Or maybe their political powers are known across the galaxy but not their combat skills nor general powerset? I thought that only a select few elites really "knew" about the Jedi. Most people across the galaxy live poorly on their farms or in the slums of cities, Han was one of these people until he became a space pirate, etc.

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+Gemstone Mine    2590

I think the idea is that everyone knew about the mythos of the jedi during the old republic, that they were great warriors, peacekeepers, etc, but few people ever actually interacted with one, and therefore didn't know about the force at all, so when the empire rose, it wasn't hard to tell everyone that the jedi were frauds and just interested in power, and 20ish years later of people being raised on that story solidified it. People know the jedi existed, they just didn't understand their power, and the empire discouraged people from learning about it. The jedi were very well known, but the only people who knew about how they were so powerful were the people in high levels of power or those who directly interacted with them on a routine basis.

 

 

yeah, it's a problem, but then again, 90% of the prequels are one big continuity error, so eh.

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+rei+    34494

Upkvpz0.jpg

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