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Sky Striker - Discussion

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Dunko_Sekka    15

Maybe which zones they get summoned to depends on the matchup, you'd want decks that summon knightmare goblin to make it in the corner, but against a deck which has most of their links using 2 diagonal down arrows, you'd want to have your monster pointing to the middle, because their monster will be pointing there regardless. 

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»Noelle    5838

yeah if you're against pendulum luke's play is prob better and if you're against firewall decks or generall knightmare-centric decks i think my plays better

 

two things:

 

1. i think the brandish mirror theory on mermaid from the last page is valid but its also a free out to iblee which i didnt realize at the time so thats a good reason to play it (frees up your brandish spells and is still able to crash if you want to evenly)

 

2. this might be too enlightened a play but against the iblee decks, particularly spyral, it can sometimes be a good idea not to immediately sanctum them post side and instead wait til they trig iblee in the gy to chain it for scythe. while you're probably going to take some damage that turn, the 1k loss from their mermaid (which they have cus they used it to get to iblee) makes it so they basically cant kill you, and youve made them use a lot of resources at this point. they cant get rid of their own mermaid either cus sleeper can only target their spyral and your cards. this might not work if they immediately link away mermaid though. idk just an idea to keep in mind for the occasional yolo. if you're controlling them its usually prob better to gun it on the second spyral summon tho.

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»Noelle    5838

yo if u get reasoninged blind call 4. infernoid isnt really playing it so there isnt a reason to call 1 and some guys are using it in brandish cus they think ppl will call 1 to just summon rei or diabolos for free.

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Dunko_Sekka    15

Do you think with shared ride in the mirror it should be set all the time or held for a while sometimes? Because I think both players are wanting to set up for one turn where they can gain lots of advantage and I'd not want them to hit my shared ride with jamming wave before they're ready to have a turn where they resolve multiple copies of engage. 

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»Noelle    5838

ill have to make a gouki op at some point, hm

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Brandish gouki seems playable because the hornet bit token is a warrior so it gives you half of isolde

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»Noelle    5838

btw with new end of match procedures diabolos dmg pushes just became even better

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Farester    820
Posted (edited)

Just started trying this deck out last night after researching it the past 2 days and I have to say I'm very grateful for the wonderfully well thought out and detailed op. I haven't played since last year Zoo nats format so getting used to the year's worth link era increase in cardpool has been the greatest challenge. I tried out all the ideas in the op toon engine, goods/fusion, diabolos and different ratios of theme cards and hand traps. I feel like there's a handful of good generic cards that can supplement the lack of aggression and game ending potential we're missing in the TCG without needlefiber, but for the most part I think pure Brandish is extremely viable if not the best variant due to versatility and ability to out grind the mirror especially if they dilute themselves with another engine. More than anything I'm glad to be playing again and am eager to engage in theory discussions with the members of this site once again.

 

There's a couple of things which experience actually playing the deck taught me were slightly off as presented in the op. I think it's actually not a bad idea to build the deck with the idea of getting 3 spells in grave asap since the marginal benefits rack up quickly especially with engage's draw, but in general the mirror gets significantly easier when you have more spells in grave than your opponent, thanks to red you can be more aggressive against all match-ups early on if you fill the grave. Noelle is right to warn against haphazardly building to get 3 spells but if the proper thought is given to achieve this goal less directly and as a consequence of improving the deck's consistency overall then pitfalls like limiting the deck's versatility can be avoided. I think the most egregious offender of blindly building to get 3 spells is the toon engine, not so much because of the potential to draw bad hands with multiple toons but mainly because nothing substantial is achieved with those 3-4 slots as cyber dragon is seldom impactful and can sometimes be awkward or useless and cannon soldier in enabling Diabolos is even more limited. This engine limits the deck's versatility to an intolerable degree imo for the little it accomplishes, its the type of thing that's popular on pojo because they can't see the big picture(the deck's goals and win conditions).

 

The best goals for deck building should simply involve improving access to rei, engage, and less crucially 3 spells in grave asap this ensures that you will outpace the opponent in the mirror with good technical play, if in the process versatility can be increased all the better, toon engine doesn't assist in seeing rei or engage turn 1. In my build I achieved all three goals by playing 3 Terraforming, 3 field spell, 3 mst, and 3 twin twister. Field spell+mst/twin twister+any theme spell results in floating rei, red->blue, that same spell in hand, 3 spells in grave or more depending on terraforming and twin twister, and potentially one more brandish card off reveal from field and you can play around cherries. Mst and Twin  twister are vastly more versatile than toon engine and open up room in the side that would normally go to addressing IO and ASF games 2 and 3, as well as allowing plays to be made more easily against the mirror. As far as I can tell the only practical way to improve the chances of seeing engage is with field spell and foolish goods, goods engine with fusion is already extremely versatile at all points in the game. Another card I chose to play which was undersold in the op and that works really well with the extra s/t removal and field spells is Hercules Base which almost guarantees you win the grind against the mirror not just by allowing you to recycle your extra deck maidens but also by getting draws from beating over their links and cutting their rei off from floating or netting an extra draw.

Edited by Farester
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Farester    820

Forgot to discuss Mecha booster in my previous post but this is another card that got no attention in the op but is very important in the mirror and for avoiding disruption in general. Booster can protect your links from veiler, impermanence, and ash in the case of the first 2 this means you can keep their effects on for bp(Booster always lets you beat over opponent's blue) to keep making pushes every turn considering new EoM procedures. Booster is also a direct counter to widow anchor on either player's turn and it also counters the play I discussed above using Hercules Base to keep rei from floating. Once you use Booster on your link in the mirror there isn't much of anything the opponent can do except set back row and pass. Base and Booster both make it so you can protect the important resource of extra deck maidens to more easily out grind opponents and maintain pressure, maybe the op can be updated to include more info on these two cards and their interactions in the mirror.

Edited by Farester
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LukeRandi    233

Eagle Booster also means you are more likely to survive against aggressive decks. If you can set up the Blue Link and 3 Spells in your grave, Eagle Booster makes your Link Monster unaffected by effects and cannot be destroyed by battle. That's pretty hard to get rid of / OTK through (their monsters all lose at least 400 ATK).

In the mirror, i think the "standard" method to get rid of a Link Monster is Afterburner + Shark Cannon / Called by the Grave (if played). If you protect your Link Monster with Eagle, you stop that play in its tracks (unless they have Widow Anchor with 3 Spells ofc)

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I’ve been reading a lot of articles this past week as I’ve been traveling for work. One article in particular stood out to me to be increasingly relevant in this format. The article: 

 

 

 

While I do highly recommend reading the article and the additional materials the author suggests to fully understand my point, a TLDR would be: in each game of a match there exists two roles: beatdown and control. In matchups such as gouki vs brandish or, to reference a matchup in the past, Spellbook vs  Geargia, it is very easy to understand which deck plays what role(Brandish and Spellbook as control). However in a mirror match  it can be more complex.

 

One clear example of how to determine what general strategy to take in the brandish mirror match is to analyze which fringe cards each player is running or has access to. Generally, the player who is playing Skybase(the Daigusto Emeral) will have more longevity and be more suited to playing control with afterburners/skilljammers than to search for and make damage pushes with Diabolos. Whereas on the other side of the game if my opponent starts engage multiroll, I should focus my strategies at finishing the game as fast as possible. It is obvious that sky base is a terrible card in the gouki matchup, but what about an increasingly popular card that on the surface looks good against brandish and gouki.

 

This leads us to card choices such as droll and lock bird. Skipping a Gouki players turn with a droll is extremely valuable as prolonging the game as much as possible is in your best interest as the control in the matchup. On the other hand, the inherent neg 1 that droll can be in the brandish mirror match can lead to a loss in card advantage that could cost you the game if you are in the position of control.

 

To conclude, the success of particular card choices in the main and side such as droll and lock bird can be game-winning or a straight up neg 1 in certain situations. Know whether you are the beat-down or control before siding or maining cards for a particular matchup.

 

 

also this was posted from my phone so apologies if the formatting is bad

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»Noelle    5838

good posts everyone. id just like to mention the op and early posts are obv a bit outdated at this point. anyway the reason im posting is so i can get my thoughts written down in solving the problem of:

 

if you're maining cherries and have one extra spot in extra, do you play hexstia or skull dread? (or stated differently, if you're maining cherries, is hexstia played before skull dread or is skull dread played before hexstia?)

 

(sorry if this comes out jumbled and randomly i didnt plan this post formally at all)

 

this may seem like a pretty specific question but its relevant to my build right now. if this doesnt apply to your build just skip this post i guess.

 

a few assumptions are woven into this question. first, that you're covering the other bases with red and blue for mirror (and cus they're part of your deck obviously,) double helix for spyral, and isolde for gouki. second, at least in my list, it assumes that you're not planning to cherries any other targets against those decks, such as firewall against gouki (im not playing firewall currently.) third, it obviously assumes your regular non-cherries cards are all accounted for, making this extra spot the "15th card" in extra.

 

what these assumptions do is establish that the only real cards you're left with to choose from are hexstia and skull dread. skull dread obviously to be an autowin against rouge world chalice decks, and hexstia to gain a slight advantage in the more popular altergeist matchup. 

 

we're immediately hit with a tough question: 

 

do we play the card that autowins an unpopular matchup, or do we play the card that gives a slight advantage in a popular matchup?

 

now, of course, drawing cherries isnt that good against altergeist and it will be sided out. we're dealing with worst case scenario here of you drawing it. while cherries on skull dread giving you a huge advantage in the world chalice matchup is obligatory, what needs to be established is the circumstances in the game that would lead to cherries on hexstia mattering, since they involve a few assumptions as well.

 

first, altergeist cannot really turn 1 hexstia. hexstia is something for later turns, ideally turn 2. the best thing hexstia does is back up a floodgate. 

 

so, we have a card meant to back up a floodgate that is summoned after turn one. this means that its only a problem comparatively if they draw the floodgate after turn one as well. why? because if they had it turn 1 (floodgate here meaning anti-spell/imperial order btw) the question of whether or not you had an out to it (twin, typhoon, cyclone, mst,) would have already been resolved and if hexstia arrives on the board next turn backing up that same flood, then you didn't have an out to it anyway. 

 

the question then becomes: if they didnt have a floodgate turn 1, how much of a chance do they have of seeing it in the next turn? also, do you usually win anyway since you're given that turn 1 to play, as they didn't have a floodgate?

 

answering the latter question depends how good your hand is. if you can resolve a multiroll against that deck you can outpace them easily taking advantage of that turn, but that means you would have had to either draw engage or multiroll itself to do it that turn. in this case you wouldnt need to cherries hexstia regardless, since you already win from this power play.

 

but if you have a decent or bad had, and you're given the chance to play that turn because they didnt have a flood, we'll assume that you didn't resolve a good multiroll and cherries on the hexstia may become more important if they draw the floodgate after.

 

to answer the question of how much a chance they have of drawing the floodgate on the turn after. it's not that great. most of those decks play duality, some play card of demise, and usually desires too. the good news is that if they duality they cant hexstia that turn anyway, same with card of demise. so that means they either have to hard draw the flood for turn or desires into it to get to it.

 

what all of this does is end up rephrasing the question of whether to play a card for a popular matchup thats decent or one for an unpopular matchup thats sort of an autowin. since we can assume that the only time the cherries for hexstia will be an issue is if they didnt open a flood AND they only either desires or hard draw it for turn next turn, that is relatively unlike and although the matchup is more popular, the unpopularity of that very situation counterbalances it and leads to the question being asked as follows:

 

would you rather play an autowin against an unpopular matchup or play a decent card in an unpopular situation

 

and here the answer becomes obvious, you have two unpopular situations but one card does more in its respective situation (we're assuming of course that cherries on skull dread hurts world chalice more than cherries on hexstia in the aforementioned situation.) while we dont have precise numbers here and are speaking in looser generalities, i think the case full skull dread before hexstia is pretty clear

 

if any criticism of my line of thinking here especially as regards the actual dynamic of the matchup, id appreciate it. ive played a fair amount against both decks (more than probably the average duelist has vs world chalice unfortunately lol,) so i think my grasp on the facts here is pretty good but i may have missed something obvious or perhaps not obvious. thanks everyone. against just ignore this post if the original question doesnt apply to your deck

 

_________________

 

edit: rereading this i found 2 issues. i fucked up lol.

 

first, another thing in skull dreads favor that is that because you would side out the cherries vs altergeist and not side out the cherries vs world chalice if u played skull dread, you get more utility out of cherries overall in the world chalice matchup cus its in your deck for both or all three games. i dont think this changes that much though.

 

second, and more pressing, maybe concluding that both were "unpopular situations" was kind of a loaded term because the popularity of altergeist as a matchup compared to world chalice would still make that situation come up some more times. so perhaps the more honest way to phrase it would be:

 

an autowin vs unpopular matchup vs a decent card in an overall "decently" likely situation. that would, of course, make the question open again. which just makes my head hurt. ill sleep on it lol. i think im on the right track though

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