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Vanilla Mafia - Day 2

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Wunterslaus    223
16 hours ago, rei said:

if i was scum why would i leave faint alive when he's very openly been trying to kill me? 

These kinda posts always makes me wanna kill that person

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hazmah    22
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wunterslaus said:

These kinda posts always makes me wanna kill that person

facts that is a huge scum indicator, as the argument is just wifom at best

Edited by hazmah
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Faint    5852

I mean honestly id have been pissed off if we won that given how fucking awful the tyranno lynch was. Town managed to get doc and cop killed d1

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Posted (edited)

Dead giveaway rei was scum., you lynched the doc and rei wasn't the next kill. Second dead giveaway, rei lived after Malcolm died. rei is the most deadly threat to scum there is because of his ability to convince town he's right. The only reason you keep him alive is so that people don't suspect you for alive = scum. To believe rei was town there, you had to believe scum was awful. 

 

And for anyone that thinks this is wifom logic, its not. This is literally asking does this play advance scum's end game and as i showed you above, leaving rei alive does not in anyway advance scum's end game in those circumstances. Therefore, it is highly unlikely rei is town there. 

 

Seriously, given the scum team, Tyranno dying day 1 was literally the best possible outcome because it gave you a ton of information on the kill targets. 

Edited by Francis J Underwood

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Wunterslaus said:

These kinda posts always makes me wanna kill that person

for once i agree with you, it put the "why" in wifom. (and yes I know it stands for wine and not why) 

 

Why me, fry me logic. 

Edited by Francis J Underwood
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On 7/3/2018 at 11:12 AM, Jazz said:

Mods -

Jazz - needs work. Rigged the game with Malcom dying. Couldn't even get EOD right - F- 

 

On 7/3/2018 at 11:12 AM, Jazz said:

 

Players:
1. Malcolm - MR. AFK got himself modkilled. Nothing to really say about his play because of that other than he was a detriment to his faction. Real life > mafia 

2. Brandis72 - Who? 

3. Tyranno - honestly this was the most egregious lynch of the game. Agree with faint that tyranno was obv town, but like others said, he reacted poorly and that gave scum the margin they needed to kill him. 

4. Sophocles - Don't rememeber. 

5. Wunter - Faint summed it up best - He's impossible to read so let's kill him. Seriously, this is what you do with player like him. You lynch them until either they stop playing or play better. 

6. Faint - Played well I thought. I had no real questions about his alignment. 

7. Mascis - Mascis had it, but he couldn't explain it. Not enough to just name the scum team, you have to convince ppl too (admittedly hard in smaller games with less activity, but yeah)

8. rei - Only real mistake was that post quoted by wunter for the reasons I listed in the previous post. Other than that he heavy carried. 

9. NotAWolf - Don't rememeber

 

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Posted (edited)

One last thing to point out, this is a game won on skill and teamwork. When both sides don't play as a team, the better player will win. 

 

rei essentially solo'd this game. For the new players, this isn't an uncommon occurrence for him as either alignment. For the vets though, you know that as town you have to both convince town you are town, and that you are right. Not one player did that here and thats why rei took you guys to town. 

 

Priority #1 should be to establish you are town and make sure mafia can't try to mislynch you. Even for rei (probably especially for rei), mafia is a playing a game against time. The less mislynch targets they can push, the shorter their time gets and the higher the likelihood of town figuring the game out. Players who get townread easily are those who kill scum and those whose intentions are crystal clear, which means that you 

 

1. You know exactly what their objective is - I want person X dead 

2. You understand the process and reason behind their objective - I want person X dead because

3. After thinking about 1 and 2, you see that both are in the best interest of town - Person X dying helps town because 

 

When you make a post, you should ask yourself if youre conveying those three things. if not, edit your post before you post it. Even if youre trying to get information, you can still make sure that your post conveys those three things. 

 

 

Edited by Francis J Underwood
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+Mascis    4554
19 hours ago, Mascis said:

I’m not really trying but I’m not about to lose to rei alive = scum

Dang

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19 hours ago, Mascis said:

if England is going to bring it home, now would be th time @Faint

1

Hey they won Euros at least

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1 hour ago, Francis J Underwood said:

Dead giveaway rei was scum., you lynched the doc and rei wasn't the next kill. Second dead giveaway, rei lived after Malcolm died. rei is the most deadly threat to scum there is because of his ability to convince town he's right. The only reason you keep him alive is so that people don't suspect you for alive = scum. To believe rei was town there, you had to believe scum was awful. 

 

And for anyone that thinks this is wifom logic, its not. This is literally asking does this play advance scum's end game and as i showed you above, leaving rei alive does not in anyway advance scum's end game in those circumstances. Therefore, it is highly unlikely rei is town there. 

 

Seriously, given the scum team, Tyranno dying day 1 was literally the best possible outcome because it gave you a ton of information on the kill targets. 

 

28 minutes ago, Mascis said:

Dang

Note the difference in the explanation. One is a conclusory statement. The other has a conclusion and then supports it with multiple facts. 

 

That's the difference between being right and convincing someone youre right. 

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+rei+    34654

i get a lot of shit for having a bad scum game

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, rei said:

i get a lot of shit for having a bad scum game

You really don't. It's really this community that makes that read possible. 

Edited by Francis J Underwood

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+Malcolm    4605
1 hour ago, rei said:

i get a lot of shit for having a bad scum game

to be fair you used to have a very poor scum game. i think it is nice now

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+Malcolm    4605

also, im sorry for getting quota killed for the second time in a few years. my dog was missing and i obviously never came back to the thread

 

dog was found later that night thank god

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Jazz    5326

Underwood coming in clutch with the post game analysis

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hazmah    22
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Francis J Underwood said:

Dead giveaway rei was scum., you lynched the doc and rei wasn't the next kill. Second dead giveaway, rei lived after Malcolm died. rei is the most deadly threat to scum there is because of his ability to convince town he's right. The only reason you keep him alive is so that people don't suspect you for alive = scum. To believe rei was town there, you had to believe scum was awful. 

 

And for anyone that thinks this is wifom logic, its not. This is literally asking does this play advance scum's end game and as i showed you above, leaving rei alive does not in anyway advance scum's end game in those circumstances. Therefore, it is highly unlikely rei is town there. 

 

Seriously, given the scum team, Tyranno dying day 1 was literally the best possible outcome because it gave you a ton of information on the kill targets. 

 

Whilst I agree with Francis's other analysis post on how posts should be structured, I do not agree with the message of this post at all. Despite rei potentially being an incredibly convincing town, it is quite literally scummy and uncompetitive to kill someone on the basis that they are too good as town for mafia to keep alive or that if they're not killed you should lynch them as theyre scum. 

 

And if this kind of play is practiced, I encourage hosts to start introducing roles such as 1/2 shot bulletproofs, vets, commuters etc to punish both town and mafia who adopt that mindset.

 

Don't take the cheap cop out. Be better. Or don't and lose. 

Edited by hazmah
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, hazmah said:

 

Whilst I agree with Francis's other analysis post on how posts should be structured, I do not agree with the message of this post at all. Despite rei potentially being an incredibly convincing town, it is quite literally scummy and uncompetitive to kill someone on the basis that they are too good as town for mafia to keep alive or that if they're not killed you should lynch them as theyre scum. 

 

And if this kind of play is practiced, I encourage hosts to start introducing roles such as 1/2 shot bulletproofs, vets, commuters etc to punish both town and mafia who adopt that mindset.

 

Don't take the cheap cop out. Be better. Or don't and lose. 

The whole point of a night kill is to give mafia a way to eliminate a threat to their faction. it's mafia's second biggest resource and how they allocate that resource is vital information. When a player who is clearly a threat to the scum faction doesn't die FOR MULTIPLE DAYS WITH NO REASON WHY HE SHOULD LIVE, that is 100% grounds for suspicion because it means mafia is either 

 

1. Throwing the game by making sub-optimal kills intentionally i.e. reducing their chances of winning

2. Terrible because they are making sub-optimal kills

3. HAS THAT PLAYER ON THEIR TEAM. 

 

Sorry i don't want to live in a world where the first two are a thing. i play under the assumption mafia will do what it takes to you know - ACTUALLY WIN THE GAME. 

 

Like the amount of games scum loses to suboptimal kills is insane and its stupid mindsets like the one evidenced above that cause it. Likewise, ignoring information like that costs town games as well.

 

Being better means playing to maximize your chances to win. Killing threats to your faction does that. PERIOD

Edited by Francis J Underwood

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Faint    5852
7 hours ago, hazmah said:

Don't take the cheap cop out. Be better. Or don't and lose. 

This was my take fwiw.

 

I had heavily sounded out rei being scum but didn't want to kill him based on "alive=scum" and honestly mascis provided 0 content all game which is typical of his scum game, and his reads were generally dreadful. 

 

If I had used "dgz logic" then town wouldve won i guess, but honestly i absolutely hate that mentality

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Jazz    5326

I don’t agree with any of this except that mascis needs to put more effort toward communicating his reads.

 

Voting for scum is always the correct play. Like any game you should play to win.

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Jazz    5326

We need to remind people not to communicate with the mod within the game thread but instead via PM. This is common sense but apparently it’s not so common.

 

@Brandis72 if you need a sub you cannot ask for one or refer to host communication in the thread. It’s actually worthy of a modkill on its own regardless of hitting quota

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Jazz    5326

I basically will not respond to or answer questions asked toward me in the thread. And if I deem it especially egregious I’ll go for the MK. All hosts should do this. A mafia host should basically be a robot that provides flavor and answers questions in private chats. One should not do anything or participate in any dialogue that might influence the game in any manner.

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hazmah    22
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Francis J Underwood said:

The whole point of a night kill is to give mafia a way to eliminate a threat to their faction. it's mafia's second biggest resource and how they allocate that resource is vital information. When a player who is clearly a threat to the scum faction doesn't die FOR MULTIPLE DAYS WITH NO REASON WHY HE SHOULD LIVE, that is 100% grounds for suspicion because it means mafia is either 

 

1. Throwing the game by making sub-optimal kills intentionally i.e. reducing their chances of winning

2. Terrible because they are making sub-optimal kills

3. HAS THAT PLAYER ON THEIR TEAM. 

 

Sorry i don't want to live in a world where the first two are a thing. i play under the assumption mafia will do what it takes to you know - ACTUALLY WIN THE GAME. 

 

Like the amount of games scum loses to suboptimal kills is insane and its stupid mindsets like the one evidenced above that cause it. Likewise, ignoring information like that costs town games as well.

 

Being better means playing to maximize your chances to win. Killing threats to your faction does that. PERIOD

 

The problem with this whole argument is that it comes from a narrow-minded perspective, you are too enamored with the chance of winning to look at the long term consequences of such actions and the overall competitiveness of them. If you keep this cheap play up all it does is degrade the quality of play and encourage players to be literally scummy. Naturally good players are more likely to be killed by mafia, that is fair and completely logical, however playing with the cycle "must hit if mafia" "if not hit then is mafia" is just not fun or competitive for the players. Especially when you're just punishing someone for being good. Imagine that: you've put in the blood and sweat to be one of the better player on the site, and you're rewarded with what? Your fellow players spitting on your efforts. 

 

In a sense this cycle of "mafia must kill" "town must lynch" falls under the same vein as truth tells, which are banned in any competitive mafia setting, as despite increasing your chances of winning, they degrade the quality of the game. All we're doing is encouraging rei to quit out of frustration, thus lowering our skill base. And then once someone else rises to be better than the masses, the same thing will happen again to them, once again lowering our skill base. Stop the cheap cycle. Be better.

 

Instead of pushing these kinds of dishonourable plays as our response, we should be encouraging players to be better. Once the players have their skills more refined, rei's persuasive skills will be less effective, and the games and the website will be more interesting with a higher skill floor. Otherwise all we're doing is outing ourselves really, and for what? The sake of a win that nobody will care about in a week or two? Look at it yourself for what you think is better for the website as a whole.

 

Though, I can understand the logic that despite how it may affect the long-term gamestate, games should never be thrown and always should be played with the intent to win, even (sometimes) at all costs, and that's something I can agree with to an extent, which is why my second paragraph addressed it in my original post. If we start introducing these 1/2 shot bulletproofs, commuters, escorts/roleblockers etc as roles in our games, we add another depth to the game without adding any gamebreaking mechanics like jailor, vig etc and increase the chance of the better players like rei living to the End Game, allowing other players to adapt and get better to win.

 

In conclusion, stop looking for cheap ways to win, otherwise we will all suffer site-wide as a result. Instead, we should be encouraging players to get better, and reaffirm that mentality with adding roles to protect our better players, allowing our players to adapt and hone their skills.

 

Again: don't take the cheap cop out. Be better.

Edited by hazmah

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, hazmah said:

 

The problem with this whole argument is that it comes from a narrow-minded perspective, you are too enamored with the chance of winning to look at the long term consequences of such actions and the overall competitiveness of them. If you keep this cheap play up all it does is degrade the quality of play and encourage players to be literally scummy. Naturally good players are more likely to be killed by mafia, that is fair and completely logical, however playing with the cycle "must hit if mafia" "if not hit then is mafia" is just not fun or competitive for the players. Especially when you're just punishing someone for being good. Imagine that: you've put in the blood and sweat to be one of the better player on the site, and you're rewarded with what? Your fellow players spitting on your efforts. 

 

In a sense this cycle of "mafia must kill" "town must lynch" falls under the same vein as truth tells, which are banned in any competitive mafia setting, as despite increasing your chances of winning, they degrade the quality of the game. All we're doing is encouraging rei to quit out of frustration, thus lowering our skill base. And then once someone else rises to be better than the masses, the same thing will happen again to them, once again lowering our skill base. Stop the cheap cycle. Be better.

 

Instead of pushing these kinds of dishonourable plays as our response, we should be encouraging players to be better. Once the players have their skills more refined, rei's persuasive skills will be less effective, and the games and the website will be more interesting with a higher skill floor. Otherwise all we're doing is outing ourselves really, and for what? The sake of a win that nobody will care about in a week or two? Look at it yourself for what you think is better for the website as a whole.

 

Though, I can understand the logic that despite how it may affect the long-term gamestate, games should never be thrown and always should be played with the intent to win, even (sometimes) at all costs, and that's something I can agree with to an extent, which is why my second paragraph addressed it in my original post. If we start introducing these 1/2 shot bulletproofs, commuters, escorts/roleblockers etc as roles in our games, we add another depth to the game without adding any gamebreaking mechanics like jailor, vig etc and increase the chance of the better players like rei living to the End Game, allowing other players to adapt and get better to win.

 

In conclusion, stop looking for cheap ways to win, otherwise we will all suffer site-wide as a result. Instead, we should be encouraging players to get better, and reaffirm that mentality with adding roles to protect our better players, allowing our players to adapt and hone their skills.

 

Again: don't take the cheap cop out. Be better.

Stopped reading at the bolded. What you're advocating is for a faction to take a handicap because a player is playing well. its not punishing someone for being good, its playing the game. 

 

introducing 1/2 bp doesn't guarantee the target gets that role as roles are randomized so this is pointless. The fact that a possible role may exist in the game should not dissuade you from making the right kill. Besides for a long time the strat was to kill rei on night 2 because doc would always heal him on n1 because he was so good (hence the meme, kill rei if he gets to d3). Pro tip: Know Your Meme. 

 

Good players realize getting n1'd is a compliment because it means you were the biggest threat to scum. Its not a cheap way to win. Its playing the game as intended. 

Edited by Francis J Underwood

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+rei+    34654
6 hours ago, Jazz said:

I basically will not respond to or answer questions asked toward me in the thread. And if I deem it especially egregious I’ll go for the MK. All hosts should do this. A mafia host should basically be a robot that provides flavor and answers questions in private chats. One should not do anything or participate in any dialogue that might influence the game in any manner.

mild objection to this - some questions obviously have answers that the entire game should know (rule clarifications / ambiguous OP language) - of course if those are intentional you can just ignore them 

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