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Piper - Discussion

March 2012 Format Piper

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260 replies to this topic

#1
Moja Jojo

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Credit for some of this goes to BentheGreat

The Mystic Piper deck is one that was popularized by DGZ's own, Josh Thomas [Moja Jojo]. The deck centers on Kinka-Byo, Mystic Piper, and Level 1 monsters to draw extra cards each game. It shares similarities with Frog Monarchs in that it: (1) Runs a high monster count (by necessity) and (2) Plays a similar "defensive" engine of Faders, Trag, and Gorz.

With the release of the September 2011 Forbidden/Limited list, this deck has seen an increase in potential, with the limiting Royal Oppression, and recent limited status of Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning, as well as Heavy Storm.


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Monsters Commonly Used:



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Mystic Piper - Provides the draw engine for the deck, as well as being a LIGHT Attribute monster. Run 2-3

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Kinka-Byo - The true backbone of the strategy, it allows you to revive any level one monster from your graveyard. This means you can abuse Piper, as well as other level one monsters, like a spent Glow-Up Bulb. Run 3.

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Effect Veiler - Yet another LIGHT Attributed monster, and a solid piece of negation. Running a draw engine speficially designed to draw Level 1 monsters makes it easier to draw into our copies of this card. It stops almost every monster-based threat that this deck goes against. Run 3

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Battle Fader - A Level One battle phase-ender. Not only does it help draw more cards from Piper's ability, but it enables unique protection against OTKs and other large pushes by the opponent. Sets up for Caius and Creature Swap plays nicely, but with the semi-limiting of Tragoedia, may not see as much play in this deck as it used to. Run 2-3

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Tragoedia - Our Semi-limited friend makes a triumphant return as a counterattacking monster. Allows comebacks from small pokes/low battle damage, and thanks to the drawing potential of the deck, the attack value can reach very large numbers. His level copy/monster stealing abilities are also useful for Synchro Summons and Xyz Summons. Run 1-2

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Gorz the Emissary of Darkness - The grandfather of OTK disruption, Gorz is extremely playable in here. Since Piper decks rarely have cards on the field early game, Gorz becomes live far more often than not. Both Gorz and the token he has the potential to summon are both Level 7, so with a tuner in the graveyard a Kinka-Byo equals out to either a level 8 or 9 synchro summon. Run 1

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Glow-Up Bulb - Target for One for One, best Level 1 tuner for the deck, and it's self-reviving, setting up for easier synchro plays and tribute fodder for Caius the Shadow Monarch. Run 1

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Sangan - Since he fetches most everything in the deck, it's a natural fit to our line-up. Useable in several different situations, and usually searches out the Kinka-Byo you're missing to start the combo. Run 1

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Caius the Shadow Monarch - One of our win conditions, Caius is simple 1-4-1 removal. Clocking in at 2400 ATK and DARK attribute, he covers both as a beatstick and chaos fodder. Run 2-3

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Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning - They really brought him back, and this deck welcomes him home with open arms. A pumped up version of Chaos Sorcerer, he's able to swing up to two times or remove almost any monster threat in the game. Truly a powerhouse that deserves a spot in here. Run 1

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Chaos Sorcerer - As for Chaos Sorcerer, he's still a win condition and an easy way to summon Arcanite, but it's just not on the same level as BLS-EotB. Still worth running in the correct builds, mind you. Run 0-2

Other Notable Monsters:

Treeborn Frog
Symphonic Warrior Basses
Reborn Tengu
Genex Ally Birdman
D.D. Crow
Tour Guide
Cyber Dragon
Dark Armed Dragon

Commonly Used Spells and Traps:

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Creature Swap - Another main win condition of the deck. Since this deck runs with a lot of weaker monsters, you can safely play creature swap and start to build field prescence that way. Opponent have a boss monster like JD? Drop battle fader on the attack and swap it over. Can also be used in a combo with Mind Control if the opponent controls 2 or more monsters. Run 3

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One for One - It searches out most of your level one monsters (No kinka-byo here, sorry) and allows you to send chaos fodder to the graveyard. A good accelerator. Run 1

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Mind Control - Opens up new potential plays with how easy it is to Xyz/Synchro summon in this deck. A must have. Run 1

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Heavy Storm - Coming back to limited status is the spell card everyone loves to discuss, Heavy Storm. Sure, Starlight Road is more playable now, but Storm is a staple this format. Since Piper runs few to no backrow to stop attacks, We're free to play Heavy Storm as we wish. Also of note, since we main deck ways to make formula, as well as creature swap and mind control, we can turn potential starlight roads against their controllers, by either going aggro with their own Stardust Dragon, or making our own Shooting Star Dragon with their monster. Run 1

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Mystical Space Typhoon - Since this is newly unlimited, I figure we should discuss this as well. The other decks this format are less likely to commit backrow until our Heavy Storm is used or discarded to the graveyard. We can use this to our advantage by using copies of MST to slowly take away their options. It also helps against that pesky Gravekeepers matchup. Piper hates Royal Tribute. Run 2-3

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Trap Dustshoot - Speaking of all the spell and trap hate, the fear of Heavy Storm ended up bringing this card back into competitive play. Chainable, and disruptive, it can be a game-breaker if drawn early enough. Run 0-1

Other Spells and Traps to be considered:

Allure of Darkness
Pot of Duality
Pot of Avarice
Book of Moon
Enemy Controller
Solemn Warning/Judgment
Mind Crush
Phoenix Wing Wind Blast


Sample Decklist:

Monsters: 26
3 Mystic Piper
3 Kinka-Byo
3 Battle Fader
3 Effect Veiler
3 Reborn Tengu
3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
2 Tragoedia
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Genex Ally Birdman
1 Sangan
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Dark Armed Dragon
1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Spells: 15
3 Creature Swap
3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Pot of Duality
1 Dark Hole
1 Mind Control
1 Heavy Storm
1 Allure of Darkness
1 One for One
1 Pot of Avarice
1 Monster Reborn

Traps: 1
1 Trap Dustshoot

Link to previous discussion : http://duelistground...howtopic=135036
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#2
IAmTheGreat

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I still prefer Tour Guide over Tengu builds.
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#3
`Bonafide

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needs moar outs to Kristya
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#4
Sess

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Tour Guide is amazing in any and all forms of chaos decks, the potential for leviair abuse is too amazing. Especially in this variant where you can search for so much. Gold sarcophagus would also work well too, turn 1 leviair, kinka-byo to hand and special piper from RFG zone seems pretty good to me.

Tour guide is just so amazing, tutor anything you want and its extra darks for dark armed/allure(probably not worth removing though).

Edit: Now that I think about it, piper would probably have an amazing matchup vs lightsworn.

Would probably be good vs dark world too, if they try to push with a bunch of stuff you can fader/trag/gorz then drop caius or some chaos stuff on your turn to RFG grapha.
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#5
Snarf498

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This is a deck where you are actually not at a disadvantage if you dont play tour guide
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#6
bricemck

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This is a deck where you are actually not at a disadvantage if you dont play tour guide


Care to elaborate? Cuz it seems like Tour Guide would be fucking nutz in here. Sangan Searches all of the pieces, Leviar plays can recycle all of the monsters you are RFP'ing for your Chaos Sorcs and Black Luster Soldiers.
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#7
canasian

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This is a deck where you are actually not at a disadvantage if you dont play tour guide


Care to elaborate? Cuz it seems like Tour Guide would be fucking nutz in here. Sangan Searches all of the pieces, Leviar plays can recycle all of the monsters you are RFP'ing for your Chaos Sorcs and Black Luster Soldiers.

But unlike other decks you actually have to sacrifice quite a few pieces of the strategy to shove Tour Guide in.
This is legitimately a 40-card deck, there's no room for filler.
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#8
Snarf498

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Elaborate? I think I was pretty clear. This deck really doesnt need tour guide to win, obviously grabbing sangan is good but it isnt needed.
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#9
bricemck

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This is a deck where you are actually not at a disadvantage if you dont play tour guide


Care to elaborate? Cuz it seems like Tour Guide would be fucking nutz in here. Sangan Searches all of the pieces, Leviar plays can recycle all of the monsters you are RFP'ing for your Chaos Sorcs and Black Luster Soldiers.

But unlike other decks you actually have to sacrifice quite a few pieces of the strategy to shove Tour Guide in.
This is legitimately a 40-card deck, there's no room for filler.

Busting my balls all over the internet aren't we canasian ;)

Be careful saying there is no room for filler. Sangan is already run in the deck, so they only need to clear 3 cards. The benefits of the Leviar / Leviathan plays may outweigh someone's deisire to run Swap, Alure, 3rd MST, etc.

Or hell with easier access to Sangan you may only need to run 2 Piper or 2-ofs of the other monsters because you are searching them with a lot of consistency. I think it's pretty arrogant to assume a deck like this can't fit Tour Guide.

Elaborate? I think I was pretty clear. This deck really doesnt need tour guide to win, obviously grabbing sangan is good but it isnt needed.

I was more going for why isn't it needed. Canasian kind of answered this for you though.
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#10
Moja Jojo

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This is a deck where you are actually not at a disadvantage if you dont play tour guide


Care to elaborate? Cuz it seems like Tour Guide would be fucking nutz in here. Sangan Searches all of the pieces, Leviar plays can recycle all of the monsters you are RFP'ing for your Chaos Sorcs and Black Luster Soldiers.

But unlike other decks you actually have to sacrifice quite a few pieces of the strategy to shove Tour Guide in.
This is legitimately a 40-card deck, there's no room for filler.

Busting my balls all over the internet aren't we canasian ;)

Be careful saying there is no room for filler. Sangan is already run in the deck, so they only need to clear 3 cards. The benefits of the Leviar / Leviathan plays may outweigh someone's deisire to run Swap, Alure, 3rd MST, etc.

Or hell with easier access to Sangan you may only need to run 2 Piper or 2-ofs of the other monsters because you are searching them with a lot of consistency. I think it's pretty arrogant to assume a deck like this can't fit Tour Guide.

Elaborate? I think I was pretty clear. This deck really doesnt need tour guide to win, obviously grabbing sangan is good but it isnt needed.

I was more going for why isn't it needed. Canasian kind of answered this for you though.


Tour Guide into Sangan is pretty much broken in any deck where Sangan can at least search something from the deck. That being said, I'm still 50/50 about it being maindecked. As you said, it's just a 3 card difference to add the tour guides in. The problem I'm seeing is that the Tengus are usually what I would swap out for Guides. The deck needs beaters, and even though tour guide will turn into either an 1800 or 2500 beater, Tengu can allow me to explode all over the opponent. Also taking into consideration I'm running Duality and Allure to dig for my combo pieces, Tour Guide looks about dead even with the tengu, advantage wise. I'd never want to take a Creature Swap out of the maindeck for TG, as Swap wins games. My favorite win condition, to be honest.

And yes, I have tried the Tour Guide verion out. It's good, but for Leviair to truly shine you should main the Sarcs. Can't believe I was oblivious to that combo, kudos to whoever suggested it.

Either way, both builds have their strengths and weaknesses. It's up to the player to chose which way they'd like to take it.
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#11
Snarf498

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IDK, the thing for me is that Tengu doesnt lose to the opponent opening Tour Guide into Veiler. That's why I like tengu build more.
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#12
G Λ r Ω N

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I'm currently running Tour Guides, but I cut Kinka Byo down to 1, I didn't like 3 as it clogged a bit too much, and thoughts on Scapegoat?
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#13
Teh_Trickster

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Scapegoat is pretty amazing in this. Opens up some nutty combos, or just stalls for time in the worst case scenario.

I was going to say about how you really need Sarco to make full use of Tour Guide, so Josh has covered that side.

I really feel you need to be maining Mind Crush in this. Works really well with Dustshoot, and Veiler is a pain when you go into Kinka-byo and can't return it to hand because of Veiler :( I know there's Creature Swap too, but still, Mind Crush has multiple uses, especially with T1 Tour Guide + Sarco.
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#14
G Λ r Ω N

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3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
3 Tour Guide from the Underworld
3 Battle Fader
3 Effect Veiler
3 Mystic Piper
2 Chaos Sorcerer
2 Tragoedia
Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning
Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
Sangan
Kinka Byo
Glow-Up Bulb
Frog

3 Creature Swap
3 MST
2 Enemy Controller
Foolish Burial
One for One
Heavy Storm
Dark Hole
Monster Reborn
Book of Moon
Scapegoat
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#15
G Λ r Ω N

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Sorry I c/p'd and didn't type anything, this is what I am currently running, I have lost 1 match to agents, Kristya is a real bitch. I would like to main PoA, a Crow, and I suppose another Kink (idk Veiler stopped a Spirit from bouncing), any suggestions?
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#16
Impact

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Monsters: 26
3 Effect Veiler
3 Chaos Sorcerer
3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
3 Tour Guide from the Underworld
2 Kinka-Byo
2 Tragoedia
2 Mystic Piper
2 Battle Fader
1 Sangan
1 Cyber Valley
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Treeborn Frog
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Spells: 14
3 Creature Swap
3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Enemy Controller
1 Dark Hole
1 Mind Control
1 One for One
1 Heavy Storm
1 Foolish Burial
1 Monster Reborn

This deck is crazy good - and really fun.
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#17
G Λ r Ω N

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I was considering dropping Piper to 2 as well, btw 3 Tour Guides, Sangan and the Pipers themselves it doesn't seem too shabby, and that could be my Crow, how is 3 Sorcs working out for you?
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#18
Tae

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How do you guys play around Veiler? Everytime someone Veilers my Kinka, it was pretty much death for me.
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#19
G Λ r Ω N

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Prioritize which effect you need to go off for the long run, and use a combination of your Sorcerers, Caius, Kinka, and BLS to try and bait Veiler, or just main Mind Crush. Now I want to fit Sarcs in =S.
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#20
Sand

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One of my main problems has been not getting a Mystic Piper soon enough, and yet I'm seeing people not max on Mystic Piper. This confuses me.

I know TGU into Sangan tutors for Mystic Piper, but half the time I want to grab a Veiler instead and thus wouldn't want to feel forced towards tutoring for Mystic Piper by lowering the number of ways I can search for one.
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#21
MattKolenda

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Monsters: 26
3 Effect Veiler
3 Chaos Sorcerer
3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
3 Tour Guide from the Underworld
2 Kinka-Byo
2 Tragoedia
2 Mystic Piper
2 Battle Fader
1 Sangan
1 Cyber Valley
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Treeborn Frog
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Spells: 14
3 Creature Swap
3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Enemy Controller
1 Dark Hole
1 Mind Control
1 One for One
1 Heavy Storm
1 Foolish Burial
1 Monster Reborn

This deck is crazy good - and really fun.


How come no Allure of Darkness? Also, I would take out Cyber Valley for a third piper.
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#22
Moja Jojo

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Monsters: 25
3 Effect Veiler
3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
3 Tour Guide from the Underworld
3 Mystic Piper
3 Kinka-Byo
3 Battle Fader
2 Tragoedia
1 Sangan
1 Chaos Sorcerer
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Spells: 16
3 Creature Swap
3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Pot of Duality
2 Gold Sarcophagus
1 Dark Hole
1 Mind Control
1 One for One
1 Heavy Storm
1 Allure of Darkness
1 Monster Reborn

Traps: 1
1 Trap Dustshoot

Extra Deck:
1 Leviair
1 Leviathan
1 Utopia
1 Formula Synchron
1 Armory Arm
1 Ally of Justice Catastor
1 Hyper Librarian
1 Brionac
1 Black Rose Dragon
1 Arcanite Magician
1 Stardust Dragon
1 Scrap Dragon
1 Trishula
1 Shooting Star Dragon
1 Chimeratech Fortress Dragon

Side Deck:

2 Breaker the Magical Warrior
2 Doomcaliber Knight
2 Thunder King Rai-Oh
2 Cyber Dragon
2 Banisher of the Radiance
2 Nobleman of Crossout
1 D.D. Crow
1 Primal Seed (For teh lulz)
1 ??? (Undecided right now)

My variant of the Tour Guide build.
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#23
MattKolenda

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Monsters: 25
3 Effect Veiler
3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
3 Tour Guide from the Underworld
3 Mystic Piper
3 Kinka-Byo
3 Battle Fader
2 Tragoedia
1 Sangan
1 Chaos Sorcerer
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Spells: 16
3 Creature Swap
3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Pot of Duality
2 Gold Sarcophagus
1 Dark Hole
1 Mind Control
1 One for One
1 Heavy Storm
1 Allure of Darkness
1 Monster Reborn

Traps: 1
1 Trap Dustshoot

Extra Deck:
1 Leviair
1 Leviathan
1 Utopia
1 Formula Synchron
1 Armory Arm
1 Ally of Justice Catastor
1 Hyper Librarian
1 Brionac
1 Black Rose Dragon
1 Arcanite Magician
1 Stardust Dragon
1 Scrap Dragon
1 Trishula
1 Shooting Star Dragon
1 Chimeratech Fortress Dragon

Side Deck:

2 Breaker the Magical Warrior
2 Doomcaliber Knight
2 Thunder King Rai-Oh
2 Cyber Dragon
2 Banisher of the Radiance
2 Nobleman of Crossout
1 D.D. Crow
1 Primal Seed (For teh lulz)
1 ??? (Undecided right now)

My variant of the Tour Guide build.


Why not just cut the 2 Sarcos for 40?
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#24
Snarf498

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@ Vayu King, sarco combos with Leviar.
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#25
Moja Jojo

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Why not just cut the 2 Sarcos for 40?


Activate Gold Sarcophagus. Remove Mystic Piper. Summon Tour Guide, activate to get sangan. Exceed to Leviair, prio to detach sangan and special summon piper. Sangan searches Kinka Byo, tribute piper to draw. You now have your lock.

Trading 2 cards for light/dark in grave, 1800 beater, a sangan search, and at least 1 draw card, 2 if you hit a level 1. Seems pretty good. And 42 has been a decent number for me in this deck.
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#26
G Λ r Ω N

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I tried the Gold Sarcs and TGU route earlier, you're better off doing it with Agents tbh, a lot of times I would end with a hand of cards I couldn't set and would have to discard for no reason if I hit Piper's effect on turn 1, and drawing Sarc midgame is ugly, especially with Trag, there is nothing you really want to remove because everything you want to either just draw into, or use Piper's effect to hit to draw something else. It also made hands of Sarc, TGU 141 really awkward, speaking from experience, it's a gimmick the deck doesn't need.
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#27
dgz

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Monsters: 25
3 Effect Veiler
2 Chaos Sorcerer
3 Caius the Shadow Monarch
3 Tour Guide from the Underworld
3 Kinka-Byo
2 Tragoedia
3 Mystic Piper
2 Battle Fader
1 Sangan
1 Glow-Up Bulb
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Spells: 12
3 Creature Swap
3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Enemy Controller
1 Dark Hole
1 Mind Control
1 One for One
1 Monster Reborn

Traps: 3
1 Trap Dustshoot
2 Mind Crush


My build, only deck I really like at the moment. I love Dustshoot Mindcrush in here becauseyour drawing so much you get both every few games and you win automatically tbh. I don't understand why people are running 2 Piper, cards dumb. I am thinking about dropping to 2 Kinka because mind crush is popular and having 2 in hand is annoying. Also have not tried 3 Sorcerer is it consistent along with BLS? Why are people complaining about kinka being veilered, I hope kinka gets veilered because it still goes to your hand at the endphase and you have more of a chance of resolving your boss monsters. Also can't find a way to fit more outs to Kristya/Dyna.
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#28
G Λ r Ω N

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To my understanding, it doesn't return.
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#29
Impact

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To my understanding, it doesn't return.

it does
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#30
Morleh

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To my understanding, it doesn't return.

it does

It's your opponent's choice.
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#31
G Λ r Ω N

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To my understanding, it doesn't return.

it does

It's your opponent's choice.


Exactly, its at the discretion of when they choose to resolve veiler, and what opponent is going to let it bounce?
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#32
Morleh

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Exactly, its at the discretion of when they choose to resolve veiler, and what opponent is going to let it bounce?


There are a lot of players (even judges) that do not understand Priority, and how it affects the End Phase.
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#33
G Λ r Ω N

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So basically you'd rules lawyer them?
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#34
Morleh

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So basically you'd rules lawyer them?


I guess?
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#35
dgz

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I always thought that the Spirit monster returning to the hand was not an effect but a condition of the card. Like revealing X Type monster with Koa'ki Meiru's
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#36
Ice-eyes

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Doesn't the turn player choose the order of effect resolution in the End Phase?
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#37
Asura The Fearful One

Asura The Fearful One

    bitches be tribbin

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Doesn't the turn player choose the order of effect resolution in the End Phase?


Only for cards/effects they control. You can't choose when to resolve your opponent's card.
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#38
XeroHiro

XeroHiro

    Underworld Duelist

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http://duelistground...howtopic=137561

This is the variant I've been testing lately - it's worked well enough and some of my only losses are to GBs (potentially the worst matchup I think) and Agents when they opened godly, but I need to get rid of some cards because the deck is 43 :/

Moja, if I could get your opinion on it, I'd appreciate it!

(before anyone suggests it, no, I don't own TGU's. No, I will NOT drop $400+ for a stupid playset. if anything, I'd borrow from a friend if he didn't use em)
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#39
G Λ r Ω N

G Λ r Ω N

    Decepticons Forever

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Borrow your friend's TGUs then. It is the reason why this deck shouldn't lose to GBs, also drop the Secret Barrels, add another Trag.
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#40
Ice-eyes

Ice-eyes

    Knight of the Abyss

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Surely though your opponent can't choose when your Kinka attempts to return itself to the hand in relation to their Veiler's effect?

I'd like to get a definitive ruling on this.
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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: March 2012 Format, Piper

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