850 replies to this topic

[rap game dennis frogman]

Veiler and Maxx C will probably lose popularity in the main deck too, which is good for karakuri. VS Darkworld you can pretty much always guarantee a first turn Naturia Beast if you have the right cards for it.

Okay? Thats like saying. You can pretty much first turn exodia if you have the right cards for it. The problem is getting the cards and getting around stuff that stops us from doing that like Rai-oh. With all the TGU crap(acid golem, zenmaines,etc) and agents. I highly doubt veiler will becoming out main deck any time soon. Same with Maxx "C"

raioh will not stop you from making first turn nat beast against dark world

it all depends on how significant a player darkworld becomes in our meta

[GotCaughtGG]

I'm not referring to Rai-oh in dark world. I'm talking about Rai-oh in general which shuts down this deck. And what if you don't get komachi/cache or komachi/inashichi first turn and they play Rai-oh with protection? And even against dark world, if you can't first turn Nat beast and they explode.

[rap game dennis frogman]

I'm not referring to Rai-oh in dark world. I'm talking about Rai-oh in general which shuts down this deck. And what if you don't get komachi/cache or komachi/inashichi first turn and they play Rai-oh with protection?

then you don't push to make a naturia beast turn 1 against that deck seeing as though the deck you are playing against is clearly not dark world and thus not the deck you want to make nat beast against on turn 1

And even against dark world, if you can't first turn Nat beast and they explode.

then you play out of it like the deck does regardless, the idea is that you run enough cards so that first turn nat beast against dw is as likely as possible

[Gear]

How are peoples Extras looking? Im having a hard time trying to find room for everything.

[GotCaughtGG]

1 Ally of Justice Catastor
1 Black Rose Dragon
1 Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
3 Karakuri Shogun mdl 00 "Burei"
1 Karakuri Steel Shogun mdl 00X "Bureido"
1 Naturia Barkion
2 Naturia Beast
1 Scrap Dragon
1 Stardust Dragon
1 Number 11: Big Eye
1 Number 39: Utopia
1 Steelswarm Roach

Definitely missing some stuff that I should have. I'm testing big eye. It's extremely easy to get 2 burei on the field for big eye.

[Arawn]

Veiler and Maxx C will probably lose popularity in the main deck too, which is good for karakuri. VS Darkworld you can pretty much always guarantee a first turn Naturia Beast if you have the right cards for it.

Okay? Thats like saying. You can pretty much first turn exodia if you have the right cards for it. The problem is getting the cards and getting around stuff that stops us from doing that like Rai-oh. With all the TGU crap(acid golem, zenmaines,etc) and agents. I highly doubt veiler will becoming out main deck any time soon. Same with Maxx "C"

lol

1. The comparison with Exodia only holds in the sense that they are both unopposed. However, comparing the probability of opening Exodia and opening with this 2-card combo makes no sense. You only need Komachi in hand + Merchant/Cash Cache to get this combo, which is what makes it extremely easy. The only other deck that can easily produce this first turn Naturia Beast is Samurai with Elder/Kagemusha + Asceticism, or Dojo plays.

2. Rai-Oh is irrelevant, since my post was about first-turn Naturia Beast, and I do mean when you win the die roll and it is the first turn of the match. Furthermore, Rai-Oh's popularity in the main-deck is dependent on how the meta shapes up. Regardless, my post was not about how to handle second-turn openings. That's another topic.

3. As far as Veiler/Maxx C losing popularity, it may or may not be the case that they do. It really depends on how the meta shapes up to be, and what other exclusives are revealed. Which is why I said "probably".

4. Furthermore, I was mostly talking about the Darkworld matchup, if you read my sentence. In the darkworld matchup, Naturia Beast is key if it happens before Grapha is in the grave, and it is unlikely that you will get hit by Veiler (space is tight in that deck, and Veiler being in the main is not guaranteed). If the spells are cut off, you only have 2 worries: Grapha in hand and TGU, but for those there are plenty of solutions - Fiendish Chain, Solemn Warning, Bottomless Trap Hole, Book of Moon, Enemy Controller.

[Pking]

You could side dimensional fissure. Vs DW is pretty much game, and if you are playing agains something like plants, d. fissure will fuck their veilers, maxx c's, TKRO...

[Arawn]

You could side dimensional fissure. Vs DW is pretty much game, and if you are playing agains something like plants, d. fissure will fuck their veilers, maxx c's, TKRO...

It also prevents your Naturia Beast from working, which means you have no protection for Dimensional Fissure. What I really like about D-Fissure is that it does make Veilers and Maxx C's dead, which can be extremely good.

It's a better side in Samurais I think, because they have Shi En to protect it. Still, it's a viable option in Karakuri too.

[CheeseCake]

This deck is actually getting more attention than anyone will ever know. I personally really like this, obviously if you can drop beast t1-2 its game over in a lot of matchups assuming you drew protection of some kind and that is such a powerful tool for a deck to have.

[Mitch]

This and Dojo Samurais are the sleepers of the upcoming format. Naturia beast/shien are such great cards post DW

[rap game dennis frogman]

no samurai suck dick.

[Mitch]

Tested them and your right xD. Karakuri has been amazing for me ofc

[Gear]

This deck has been underrated and slept on since last format

[Benraino]

I'm using Safe Zone as well in my builds to shut down DW even further. Safe Zone + Nat Beast can completely shut down DW outside of Raven -> Grapha.

I also think that playing D-Fissure is important as well. It doesn't hurt your deck, and if you don't open Nat Beast, this card can also slow down Dark Worlds a little bit. Even if this card only buys you one turn, then that's good, as it allows you an even better chance of going into Nat Beast against the deck. Veiler and Maxx C are cards that hurt this deck, and being able to shut them off is very nice. While D-Fissure means no Nat Beast, it does cause problems against your opponent that should be considered.

[Gear]

I really dont like siding Dimensional Fissure in a deck like this. Dimensional Fissure has always been best sided in Stun or Antimeta decks.

Has everyone just stopped considering siding Shadow Imprisoning and Light Imprisoning Mirror? Them + Nat Beast is a game winning lock.

[rap game dennis frogman]

I really dont like siding Dimensional Fissure in a deck like this. Dimensional Fissure has always been best sided in Stun or Antimeta decks.

retarded unfounded logic

dfissure is great and it hurts almost none of your cards there is no reason not to side it

[Gear]

I really dont like siding Dimensional Fissure in a deck like this. Dimensional Fissure has always been best sided in Stun or Antimeta decks.

retarded unfounded logic

dfissure is great and it hurts almost none of your cards there is no reason not to side it

How is it dumb logic?

Dimensional Fissure breaks your ability to lock your opponent. Thats retarded and acting as if this deck doesnt tamper with the graveyard is retarded. You want to side cards you can captilize on. Only logic behind siding Dimensional Fissure in the Karakuri thread so far is because it will slow them down and my opponent doesnt like to see it. Test Dimensional Fissure in here and see how shitty it really is.

[Inari]

This deck is actually getting more attention than anyone will ever know. I personally really like this, obviously if you can drop beast t1-2 its game over in a lot of matchups assuming you drew protection of some kind and that is such a powerful tool for a deck to have.

I'm not surprised it's getting attention. It's competitive, it can deal with the upcoming DW, and it's very cheap to build compared to Agents/Plants/DW.

[brotacular7]

This deck is actually getting more attention than anyone will ever know. I personally really like this, obviously if you can drop beast t1-2 its game over in a lot of matchups assuming you drew protection of some kind and that is such a powerful tool for a deck to have.

I'm not surprised it's getting attention. It's competitive, it can deal with the upcoming DW, and you don't need tour guide.

[GotCaughtGG]

What are side decks looking like? Need help with mine.

[rap game dennis frogman]

I really dont like siding Dimensional Fissure in a deck like this. Dimensional Fissure has always been best sided in Stun or Antimeta decks.

retarded unfounded logic

dfissure is great and it hurts almost none of your cards there is no reason not to side it

How is it dumb logic?

Dimensional Fissure breaks your ability to lock your opponent. Thats retarded and acting as if this deck doesnt tamper with the graveyard is retarded. You want to side cards you can captilize on. Only logic behind siding Dimensional Fissure in the Karakuri thread so far is because it will slow them down and my opponent doesnt like to see it. Test Dimensional Fissure in here and see how shitty it really is.

this is like saying "you can't run thunder king in a deck with gadgets or sangan"

[Gear]

I really dont like siding Dimensional Fissure in a deck like this. Dimensional Fissure has always been best sided in Stun or Antimeta decks.

retarded unfounded logic

dfissure is great and it hurts almost none of your cards there is no reason not to side it

How is it dumb logic?

Dimensional Fissure breaks your ability to lock your opponent. Thats retarded and acting as if this deck doesnt tamper with the graveyard is retarded. You want to side cards you can captilize on. Only logic behind siding Dimensional Fissure in the Karakuri thread so far is because it will slow them down and my opponent doesnt like to see it. Test Dimensional Fissure in here and see how shitty it really is.

this is like saying "you can't run thunder king in a deck with gadgets or sangan"

How so? Dimensional Fissure stops one of your decks win condition. Thunder King doesnt.
Dimensional Fissure has no outstanding purpose in Karakuri to side it.

Im going to test this side

3 Shadow Imprisoning Mirror
3 Light Imprisoning Mirror
2 Maxx C
2 Thunder King Rai Oh
2 Smashing Ground/Leeching the Light
2 Effect Veiler/Debunk
1 Torrential Tribute

[GotCaughtGG]

I have my veilers mained.

[Dirk:p]

So with DW/Rabbit reaching the TCG soon, I think we should drop Fiendish Chain completely and main 2 BTH.

[GotCaughtGG]

Dark World:

Spoiler

Rescue Rabbit:

Spoiler

[brotacular7]

Dark World:

Spoiler

Rescue Rabbit:

Spoiler

Veiler does nothing to rabbit.dek...

[GotCaughtGG]

My fault, wasn't aware banishing was a cost. Me need2ruling moar.

Still deck has outs to rabbit, Chains are too good to drop imo.

[Mitch]

Bottomless trap hole has to be mained IMO when DW hits. I was never really a big fan of fiendish chain in here for some reason though

[GotCaughtGG]

I still don't think its 100% necessary it be mained. Sided sure but mained? Not in my deck. First turn naturia beast completely shuts them down. Just looking at random decks in DW discussion they literally have no outs to it. Of course I understand you won't always be able to get naturia beast out first turn but they are still ways to apply pressure while you wait for your shot. Effect veiler, TKRO, etc. I am still a fiendish chain player as are many.

And one of the reasons I choose not to use BTH is its another non chainable trap that dark world lightning wrecks.

[Gear]

I still don't think its 100% necessary it be mained. Sided sure but mained? Not in my deck. First turn naturia beast completely shuts them down. Just looking at random decks in DW discussion they literally have no outs to it. Of course I understand you won't always be able to get naturia beast out first turn but they are still ways to apply pressure while you wait for your shot. Effect veiler, TKRO, etc. I am still a fiendish chain player as are many.

And one of the reasons I choose not to use BTH is its another non chainable trap that dark world lightning wrecks.

I agree with Setsuna just because it takes out there 2 answers to a Naturia Beast. An already graved Grapha and Tour Guide plays.

Ive been maining 2 BTH and it really helps getting rid of those problematic creatures like TKR, Cyber Dragon and etc. I think BTH is a top trap card to main and if not surely siding it is a top choice.

[Arawn]

I am still playing Fiendish Chain because when Naturia Beast hits the field you are only afraid of 2 things against Dark World: Tour Guide and Raven discarding Grapha, mainly. So I think Fiendish Chain is still a viable option.

That being said, I think Bottomless Trap Hole is really needed in the main deck as well. It is a great answer to Grapha, and post Rabbit it is simply amazing (removing 2 Normal monsters free of cost is brilliant). So I'm already starting to main BTH AND Fiendish Chain. In order to do that, I have to put more focus on the first turn Naturia Beast, so I'm also maining Cash Cache to achieve that effect. Naturia Beast alone is powerful, but backed up by BTH, Fiendish or Warning, it is VERY hard to get out of. That's what I feel the deck should be aiming for.

As far as side-deck goes, I am also against Dimensional Fissure (I have not tested it, though). My main qualm with it is my personal feeling towards countinous traps/spells at the moment: only run them in decks that can support them via negators such as Shi En and Naturia Beast. That being said, Dimensional Fissure shuts down the negator of this deck, Naturia Beast. So it isn't much of a lock. I would rather side LIM and SIM which I can protect with Naturia Beast and create mini-locks.

So, I like the idea of LIM's and SIM's sided. I also think Debunk is a great side-deck card in this deck, and it is a very good option against Dark World. The only thing it doesn't hit is Tour Guide. And it's good against the obvious side-deck options for this deck: Veiler, Maxx C, etc.

[rap game dennis frogman]

I am still playing Fiendish Chain because when Naturia Beast hits the field you are only afraid of 2 things against Dark World: Tour Guide and Raven discarding Grapha, mainly. So I think Fiendish Chain is still a viable option.

arent you also afraid of the graphas that are already in the grave assuming it doesn't hit the field turn1?

[GotCaughtGG]

I still don't think its 100% necessary it be mained. Sided sure but mained? Not in my deck. First turn naturia beast completely shuts them down. Just looking at random decks in DW discussion they literally have no outs to it. Of course I understand you won't always be able to get naturia beast out first turn but they are still ways to apply pressure while you wait for your shot. Effect veiler, TKRO, etc. I am still a fiendish chain player as are many.

And one of the reasons I choose not to use BTH is its another non chainable trap that dark world lightning wrecks.

I agree with Setsuna just because it takes out there 2 answers to a Naturia Beast. An already graved Grapha and Tour Guide plays.

Ive been maining 2 BTH and it really helps getting rid of those problematic creatures like TKR, Cyber Dragon and etc. I think BTH is a top trap card to main and if not surely siding it is a top choice.

I still choose to play chains and side BTH. Chains put in work against agents and DW. If I were to main BTH I would have to drop my chains since trap line up space is tight. Naturia beast + chains + warning/judgment = Umad dark world?!

Edit: FFFF- didn't take into account graphas already being in grave. D.D. Crow takes care of that g2 but g1. And what about Closed Forest for side deck. Thinking of running 2.

Edited by Sabrac, 10 October 2011 - 03:55 PM.

[Arawn]

I am still playing Fiendish Chain because when Naturia Beast hits the field you are only afraid of 2 things against Dark World: Tour Guide and Raven discarding Grapha, mainly. So I think Fiendish Chain is still a viable option.

arent you also afraid of the graphas that are already in the grave assuming it doesn't hit the field turn1?

I was talking about first-turn scenario, sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

I think the darkworld matchup is actually not that easy if they already have that Grapha in the Graveyard. It's a lot about Naturia Beast, and sometimes Landoise.

I still don't think its 100% necessary it be mained. Sided sure but mained? Not in my deck. First turn naturia beast completely shuts them down. Just looking at random decks in DW discussion they literally have no outs to it. Of course I understand you won't always be able to get naturia beast out first turn but they are still ways to apply pressure while you wait for your shot. Effect veiler, TKRO, etc. I am still a fiendish chain player as are many.

And one of the reasons I choose not to use BTH is its another non chainable trap that dark world lightning wrecks.

I agree with Setsuna just because it takes out there 2 answers to a Naturia Beast. An already graved Grapha and Tour Guide plays.

Ive been maining 2 BTH and it really helps getting rid of those problematic creatures like TKR, Cyber Dragon and etc. I think BTH is a top trap card to main and if not surely siding it is a top choice.

I still choose to play chains and side BTH. Chains put in work against agents and DW. If I were to main BTH I would have to drop my chains since trap line up space is tight. Naturia beast + chains + warning/judgment = Umad dark world?!

Edit: FFFF- didn't take into account graphas already being in grave. D.D. Crow takes care of that g2 but g1. And what about Closed Forest for side deck. Thinking of running 2.

I personally don't like Closed Forest. It only shuts down one aspect of the deck, which you can already do with Naturia Beast anyway. I think the thing you have to worry about the most is Grapha, both because of his body and his effect. Debunk is the solution for that, but DD crow isn't bad either. Then there's Tour Guide, which is a pain too, but you just have to rely on BTH's and Warnings for that one.

[GotCaughtGG]

i main veilers and chains for TGU. Grapha is my only issue if I can't stop it. Also, I got wrecked by sabers recently. Completely random match up and I got 0-2'd lol.

[Dirk:p]

I really don't see Fiendish Chain and Effect Veiler as main deck worthy cards in here once DW and Rabbit are in the meta. 3 Thunder King and double Bottomless is the way to go imo.

[GotCaughtGG]

I won't remove veilers until I find a problem with them lol. I haven't had any issues so far. So this is one of those wait and see type deals with me.

[Gear]

I really don't see Fiendish Chain and Effect Veiler as main deck worthy cards in here once DW and Rabbit are in the meta. 3 Thunder King and double Bottomless is the way to go imo.

I agree with Bottomless its to good right now not to main but 3 Thunder Kings seems like to much. I want to start going off asap and Thunder King absorbs a turn.

[Mitch]

I won't remove veilers until I find a problem with them lol. I haven't had any issues so far. So this is one of those wait and see type deals with me.

That's the thing though. You haven't had any problems with them because Rabbit and DW are not part of the meta ATM. Once those decks hit though, veiler becomes extremely dead and so does chain.

[GotCaughtGG]

I won't remove veilers until I find a problem with them lol. I haven't had any issues so far. So this is one of those wait and see type deals with me.

That's the thing though. You haven't had any problems with them because Rabbit and DW are not part of the meta ATM. Once those decks hit though, veiler becomes extremely dead and so does chain.

Granted 90% of the DW players I face on DN suck and lose to my gishki =/ im willing to agree to this.