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Is it Sangan or Tour Guide?


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#81
Pharaoh Atem

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Let's look at one thing a lot of folks like to do.

They like to bitch about cards by putting them into groups based on general terms of "what they do".

Shit like "X is an enabler" is part of this grouping habit.


Which group a card belongs to is completely and wholly irrelevant to the question of what ought be done and not done to that card.

When we group them up, we make excuses to just hit one group or another, and skip actually looking at problems.

It's LAZINESS, friends.



Further, let's look at a world where we hit enablers all the time, and leave the "more powerful results" alone. What are we left with? We're left with a game where consistency in result goes down, but results themselves can have radical swings back and forth. This is not a good thing, by many measures - it essentially invites games to be "stupid because no one has the nuts, until someone gets the nuts, then it becomes a completely different kind of stupid."

Removing the impact of "the nuts" is also bad too, as it harms notions of conservation, timing, and so forth.

The goal is a best-of-both worlds situation: we do this by fucking ignoring "groups" of cards that "do similar things", and just evaluate each and every card, combo, and deck on its own merits.

If it is smart to hit enablers more often than what is enabled, it is only by ACCIDENT that such is the smart move, NOT by some magical pile of wisdom.
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#82
Pharaoh Atem

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Leviair is OP as long as TGU exist at more then 1.

And I'm pretty sure Konami will not limit tgu or ban it so.... Leviair should die until then.


This is also a bad mindset. You're acting like "what the company is willing to do somehow shapes what should happen."

It shapes "will", but "should" doesn't give a fuck.

If Leviair should be legal, then "what should happen" doesn't give a damn how OP Levi would be with Guide legal at any number - it coldly states "X is wrong" and then washes its hands of the situation.
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#83
Chris Buraseru

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Atem is on some 4th dimension Yugioh shit tbh. My brain is kinda melting.
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#84
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Atem is on some 4th dimension Yugioh shit tbh. My brain is kinda melting.


it's Atem being Atem. don't get worked up.
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#85
Vice Captain Sanada

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Doesn't a cards brokeness vary by the format around it? I'm not sure how we are supposed to gauge how broken a card is unless we compare it to either:

a) the other cards in the card pool
b) game mechanics - this is very theory based however. What is the proper way yu-gi-oh should be played? What cards breaks the 'ideal' mechanics?

I'd like to point out that it seems Konami's objective is to look at gamestate diversity above these two criteria. At least that's what i got from kevin's post on the banlist.

Would raigeki be broken if cards had an effect that granted them immunity from card effects? Or would that immunity be the broken game mechanic? Or is costless destruction broken?
Cards get pulled off the list as time progresses because they become obsolete. They were once more powerful than they are now. Cyber Dragon was limited at one point iirc, now it's unlimited.

Would leviair had been more powerful or less if it existed when RFG really meant RFG? 1800 doesn't seem very big anymore. BUT THEN AGAIN, think of the extra ATK points and advantage gained from Leviair's effect!

Atem stated that Yu-Gi-Oh! exists on the pillar of Power Creep. Ever since the beginning of the game, cards have gotten more and more powerful.
How could Criteria B and the power creep co-exist? I don't see how that could be possible (WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT). It must be very difficult to design cards, introducing new mechanics and increasing the card pool without creating redundancy (which does exist, of course), without throwing the balance of the current format off.
I think it is fairly safe to compare the gamestate to a living creature. Cells are constantly being generated, but also dying. And no matter how good the last set of cells were, they'll die and have to make room for the newer ones. It just might be the case that YU-Gi-Oh! has since passed its peak of ultimate physical maturity, and has since been taking increasingly larger doses of Viagra to continue to perform. Cyber Dragon being the first one, perhaps???
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#86
cum

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Why is the distinction between "should"/"ought" and "will" so hard for some people to understand when it comes to list talk?
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#87
Pharaoh Atem

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Doesn't a cards brokeness vary by the format around it? I'm not sure how we are supposed to gauge how broken a card is unless we compare it to either:

a) the other cards in the card pool
b) game mechanics - this is very theory based however. What is the proper way yu-gi-oh should be played? What cards breaks the 'ideal' mechanics?

I'd like to point out that it seems Konami's objective is to look at gamestate diversity above these two criteria. At least that's what i got from kevin's post on the banlist.

Would raigeki be broken if cards had an effect that granted them immunity from card effects? Or would that immunity be the broken game mechanic? Or is costless destruction broken?
Cards get pulled off the list as time progresses because they become obsolete. They were once more powerful than they are now. Cyber Dragon was limited at one point iirc, now it's unlimited.

Would leviair had been more powerful or less if it existed when RFG really meant RFG? 1800 doesn't seem very big anymore. BUT THEN AGAIN, think of the extra ATK points and advantage gained from Leviair's effect!

Atem stated that Yu-Gi-Oh! exists on the pillar of Power Creep. Ever since the beginning of the game, cards have gotten more and more powerful.
How could Criteria B and the power creep co-exist? I don't see how that could be possible (WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT). It must be very difficult to design cards, introducing new mechanics and increasing the card pool without creating redundancy (which does exist, of course), without throwing the balance of the current format off.
I think it is fairly safe to compare the gamestate to a living creature. Cells are constantly being generated, but also dying. And no matter how good the last set of cells were, they'll die and have to make room for the newer ones. It just might be the case that YU-Gi-Oh! has since passed its peak of ultimate physical maturity, and has since been taking increasingly larger doses of Viagra to continue to perform. Cyber Dragon being the first one, perhaps???



We have the technology to make YGO 24 years old forever. Some people are just in MY way.
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#88
victor

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I don't think Leviair is banworthy.

If you had to commit 2 LV 3 monsters to make it, it is not an overpowered card.

It's once per turn and it is restricted to LV 4 or lower. If you want higher Levels, you need to play DDR and discard for it.

Typically, some sort of setup for Leviair is required (monsters have to be Banished first and that (ideally) requires card commitment).

So Leviair theoretically is a niche option, something you go into to counter BTH, DPrison, etc. or after you RFG monsters via some other effect.

In LV3 themes that emphasize R3 Summons like Inzektors, Windups, and Banish Fish, you have neat tricks like Lair Wire, etc.

Viewed from this perspective, Leviair is not the problem. If anything, the fact that you have setup your graveyard for 1 card XYZs via Rat or Dragonfly means there is some theme-restrictive interactions going on here.

-------------

Notice how Tour Guide and Rescue Rabbit ruin this model.

The biggest strike against Leviair right now is that it is a 1 card 2nd Laggia.

Laggia is a "boss monster" - it should be theme-restrictive and require effort to make. Evols, case in point.

It can't be play 2 cards (Rabbit 1st, then Tour Guide) and now have 2 Laggia. This can happen 2nd turn, no effort needed to setup the grave, setup the field, etc. irrespective of cards being destroyed in battle, it's pure solitaire, just 2 Normals Summons.

Do you guys see the difference?
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#89
Pharaoh Atem

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And how do you solve? Ban Rabbit and Guide, just like Atem's said for a damn long time.
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#90
TheNewGuy

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Does no one remember Sangan was banned for a format?
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#91
Myth

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Does no one remember Sangan was banned for a format?


When? I don't remember a time since I've been playing (06) where Sangan has been banned?
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#92
Nate the Awesome

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Does no one remember Sangan was banned for a format?


When? I don't remember a time since I've been playing (06) where Sangan has been banned?


Had to look this up myself. Apparently it was back in 2004. lol.

http://yugioh.wikia....n/Limited_Chart
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#93
.ben.

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I think im the only person who doesn't think Leviar is even that great of a card...
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#94
Canadian

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I think im the only person who doesn't think Leviar is even that great of a card...


It's really rather underwhelming. The mere fact you can have it as a toolbox option from a single card which every deck can play 3 of is the problem.

I don't get how people could possibly want Leviair to be banned if TGU was at anything other then 1.
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#95
.ben.

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The only good thing I ever do with leviair is:

- Get back Rabbit
- Get back Inzektors banished by Chain Disappearance.
- On the super rare occasion, steal their TKRO

Outside of those instances, I barely use the card.
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#96
white-bordered swamp

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Guys saying that "we shouldn't ban a card even if future releases are bound to make it a problem" are completely wrong. We should absolutely try to predict the future and ban cards accordingly. This brings me to exhibit A:

Posted Image

As innocuous as it may appear at first glance, this card has tons of power hidden behind it. First of all, it searches a LV8 dragon, and we all know that Konami loves printing broken LV8 dragons such as Chaos Emperor Dragon and Judgment Dragon. Ignore the fact that I used nomis that can't even be special summoned by Dragonic Tactics in the first place to back up my point and bear with me for a moment. History is bound to repeat itself. Konami is going to reprint more broken LV8 dragons soon. Insider info tells me that they are considering printing this card:

Posted Image

As we also know, the strength of a tutor is judged only by it's amount of raw targets, not what those targets are or if said tutor has any downsides. It currently has over 40 targets! Just looks at all of those options. But worst of all, my super secret Konami insider prediction abilities tell me that they are going to print more busted targets, so this card is only going to get more powerful! This is why, duelists of DGz, we need to take a pre-emptive strike now, and ban the enabler: Dragonic Tactics! We all know from MTG that banning the enabler is the best way to approach any problem rather than just banning obviously broken shit. Pre-emptive strikes should not be confused with paranoia; they are a very logical thing to do. Just to give you an example, the war in Iraq was a pre-emptive strike, and I hear that's going pretty well.
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#97
.ben.

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When is TROL being released? That card looks good. I wonder if someone will break it?

r/f 10/10

EDIT: Actually, my favorite part of that card is how you used problem-solving text. :)
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#98
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I can only assume the card art is taken from Magic
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#99
denis frogman

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I really don't like think TGU should be touched below 2. Using TGU in virtually any deck gives it a strong back bone and so much consistency. I'd hate to see such a good card be banned when Sangan has been a faggot for like 10 formats now.

does this post really have 2 posreps on dgz what the fuck is wrong with you people how can anyone think tgu is good for the game
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#100
Pharaoh Atem

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I really don't like think TGU should be touched below 2. Using TGU in virtually any deck gives it a strong back bone and so much consistency. I'd hate to see such a good card be banned when Sangan has been a faggot for like 10 formats now.


Decks don't deserve to be good at all costs, and fuck any notion otherwise.

Never mind, of course, that nearly every "good card that forges a backbone on its own" in this game works BETTER when among better cards.

YGO is a game of synergy - and saying "TGU helps all decks" is thus an idiotic generalization. Sure, it helps anything beyond a certain low threshold of usability: but it helps the good shit MORE by virtue of greater synergy. The good shit can use those free Rank 3s far better than Terribad SpecialSummon Archetype #21098340y7q9379peyhqwp9y2q0956q92.

Stop using unreasonable bullcrap for your positions, or I'm going to start treating these threads like how I treat Pojo.
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#101
pie lies fly

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In LV3 themes that emphasize R3 Summons like Inzektors, Windups, and Banish Fish


No, really. Explain this.
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#102
Draigun

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I really don't like think TGU should be touched below 2. Using TGU in virtually any deck gives it a strong back bone and so much consistency. I'd hate to see such a good card be banned when Sangan has been a faggot for like 10 formats now.


Thing is, Sangan didn't become that big of "a faggot" until Tour Guide of the Underworld was released. There were other cards that TGU could pull but no target was better than Sangan. If Sangan leaves but TGU remains at 3, we'll all be at square one only this time, there's the possiblity of recycling Tour Guide through Tour Bus, continuing the cycle of rampant bullshit.

Before EXVC, you either had to open with Sangan and commit it to the field and/or grave for use from Call / Limit Reverse. This also meant drawing the fuck out of your deck or devoting a spot to Mystic Tomato (even then, Tomato doesn't guarantee you access to Sangan). With TGU, it's like having "1 male Sangan and 3 female Sangans" but with just that one "male Sangan", games have less of a bullshit frequency.

The less bullshit we have, the more the game becomes complex again.
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#103
hipster_marshmallow101

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i remember when we had leviar in plants it could do some cool things like detach a dandylion to bring back a glow-up that was banished for spore earlier in the game, setting up a formula play
but that was a different time

tour guide is a lot like stratos, especially in that it can search itself as well as something else

unlike stratos, with new mechanics it causes xyz monsters to be easier to summon WITHOUT the interactions of any other cards

stratos causes fusions to be easy to make too with its effect, but only if you can control a face-up fusion gate first


there is the main issue i have with it, tour guide is a perfect example of "power creep doesnt always mean bigger numbers"

i'd expect TGU to get the stratos treatment, which really limits its usefulness, and tbh thats all that i feel really needs to be done, if you cant do it twice in a game, it makes tour guide a precious resource that we need to hold on to and make sure will work, because fuck effect veiler

sangan has been an issue not just because of what he can search, but because of the stipulations on his trigger
field -> graveyard
THATS IT
doesnt have to be destroyed by battle, doesnt have to be tributed for a tribute summon, doesnt have to be used as a synchro material
back when we were playing by KT xyz rulings this fuck always worked and the game was a bloody mess

sangan is an example of "back in my day, power creep didnt create enough stuff to abuse effects like this"

when synchros came out, sangan should have been banned because by its original design, sangan had to either
a) die by battle, resulting in even card advantage because your opponent just plused
b) be tributed for a tribute summon, meaning you had to waste resources to protect the guy so you could just break even
or c) trick your opponent into wasting resources on it, really the best way to use him because it was the only way to plus

given the way the game works now sangan is a power card, theres a fucking reason he was the ultra rare in a TU pack

so my answer to the OP, both are problem cards
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#104
Draigun

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Cutting TGU down to 1 per deck would actually be a smart move due to two things:

1) That player must press forward with getting their 1 TGU to go off in the hopes of not running into Veiler / Chalice / Chain / Drain

2) Depending on the deckbuilding, say Sangan and Tour Bus are in the deck, you're now forced into a choice of what you want on the field, forcing "the player" to make the decision on TGU's effect worth more.

Something like that would place decision making back into that play as opposed to now where you honestly don't give a fuck because there are 2 more copies of TGU in deck so Veiler can eat a dick atm.
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#105
iamRatedR

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Cards like Sangan and ROTA should never have to be banned or restricted imo.

As a rule tutors are healthy in a tcg game - Yu-Gi-Oh says screw the rules, we break the healthy.


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#106
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Cards like Sangan and ROTA should never have to be banned or restricted imo.

As a rule tutors are healthy in a tcg game - Yu-Gi-Oh says screw the rules, we break the healthy.



Stratos
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#107
white-bordered swamp

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Cards like Sangan and ROTA should never have to be banned or restricted imo.

As a rule tutors are healthy in a tcg game - Yu-Gi-Oh says screw the rules, we break the healthy.





Stratos

With the exception of tutors that are inherent, immediate +1s like Stratos, his statement holds true.

Edit: Also tutors that are overly generic with no downsides are bad for the game (note: what is "overly generic" is quite subjective).

Posted Image
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#108
iamRatedR

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Cards like Sangan and ROTA should never have to be banned or restricted imo.

As a rule tutors are healthy in a tcg game - Yu-Gi-Oh says screw the rules, we break the healthy.






Stratos

With the exception of tutors that are inherent, immediate +1s like Stratos, his statement holds true.

Edit: Also tutors that are overly generic with no downsides are bad for the game (note: what is "overly generic" is quite subjective).

Posted Image


wasn't that banned at some point though? i only played magic from scourge to kamigawa so im unsure.

but in regards to the thread, imho, tour guide should go before sangan ever does.
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#109
white-bordered swamp

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It is banned; that's my point. Because it's overly generic and extremely efficient in what it does, it's deemed too powerful.
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#110
im'a beetle!!

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Although TGU is a problem and it should be banned/limited (there should be no one who doesn't agree about this) I believe Sangan should get hit first. If there were no Sangan TGU you would either have to use a sub-par monster to work with it or no other monster at all. TGU into Sangan + sit = the problem for me. I can deal with TGU into Leviathan or Leviair (although I do not support Zenmaines in this matter) but TGU into Sangan + sit means I will either have to create a way to get over the Sangan without getting its effect off or I will have to run over it and then make a setup to oppose the card it grabbed. If the cards Sangan could grab were not able to be the main components of a deck then I would not mind it, but that is not so which means that is the problem. I'd like to reference a deck I made around December that used TGU. The deck revolved around gaining and retaining advantage while making adequate sized pushes. To accomplish this I used T.G.'s, TGU, and Junk Synchon to keep advantage, syncho, set up for future plays, etc. Obviously the deck was not the best and was hurt by Rai-Oh but I most often did not use TGU to go into Rank 3's, I mainly used him to go into Sangan to get all my cool cards. (it was also fun to go Striker > Warwolf > TGU > Sangan > Scrap Dragon > blow up) Junk Synchro could also be used like TGU, in a way, by bringing back Striker.

All I'm trying to get at is that the main problem I see right now is TGU being a tutor for all the pieces in a deck, especially in Rabbit and Inzektor. If TGU did not have Sangan all you could do in Rabbit is TGU > Zenmaines + sit or wait until you get Rabbit to do the Leviair combo. There would be no threat of a face-down monster in that matchup, either. Also, according to some people on here, in Japan they would use TGU over Cardcar (which they are not really using anymore anyways) just because you can go TGU > Sangan > Leviathan > set Call or TGU > Sangan + sit, which seems to be much better then anything else. :/




Edit: I guess I did not address the fact that if you limit TGU then Sangan has less of a chance coming out and yada yada yada. That is another way to hit the whole idea. I do think the problem is Sangan so if anything happens TGU should get limited to 1 or Sangan should get banned.

TGU by itself is an extremely strong card. I do think at some point power creep will make it less of s strong card (if you can believe that lol) but the fact that Zenmaines is a card, itself, means that TGU will always have at least some sort or strength to it. Leviathan is a beatstick and Leviair is a niche card, that is extremely abusable towards obtaining a win condition in ONE deck. Golem is a niche card as well, I think we all know that, but it is powerful.

I mean, if you still think Leviair is bannable look at fucking Chaos Dragons. The deck revolves around banishing small shit in the grave and even then Leviair sees play maybe once a match. It can be abused but the card itself does not lend to any win condition outside Rabbit, unless I am forgetting something. It is an extremely niche card in my opinion that can have a large potential to be abusable (as seen in Winston's top 8 match with Lyla) but due to consistency it does not.
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#111
Eston

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TGU is a one card 2500 beater, 3k beater, DDR, and zenmaines.

Sangan searches small monsters, and is tutored by TGU.

Seems obvious that TGU is the one that needs to get hit.
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#112
Indignation

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TGU is the ultimate toolbox. It is the greatest 1 monster toolbox the tcg game has ever known. Even glow up bulb and spore and the best tuners needed cards like dandy and tengu to be abused.
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#113
re:HOPE

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I'm of the opinion that the problem in cases like these is almost always the special summon or its facilitator. In this case, that means TGU is certainly the problem card.

ACP laid down most of how I feel, but there's also one other point I wanna bring up. And this is purely opinion, by the way, but...

RANK 3 LEAVES QUITE A BIT TO BE DESIRED.

My most recent deck employs the use of several rank 3 monsters so it's natural I'd make a lot of rank 3 Xyz. And I have too say that I've been pretty underwhelmed by their overall effectiveness. Zenmaines is a blue chip, obviously. And Leviar is pretty good as well. But past that, all the level 3 guys are very close to the same monster; just a lot of size and big numbers with no effects to speak of. My deck before this was Gadget and I wholeheartedly feel that Utopia is better than any of them except Zenmaines and Leviair(sometimes EVEN Leviair). Yet, generic level 3s see tons more play than their rank 4 counterparts. Why?

A LOT OF THE REASON RANK 3 IS WHERE IT IS, IS BECAUSE TGU IS SO GOOD.

All those guys, even Zenmaines sometimes, are just really blah and even sub-par when you make them the old fashioned way. It really helps them out a lot that they have a stud like TGU to help them instantly appear on the board. TGU is an actual, factual +1. That's very rare to find in this game. It would still be played even without Sangan. See, when you get a card like TGU, the question isn't which cards you play break TGU, the question is which cards do you have to play to take advantage of the broken-ness of TGU. It's the same philosphy behind playing trash ass Kabazauls because Rabbit allows you to do really silly stuff.

So, yeah. Thinking Sangan is the problem? You can lie to yourself, you cant lie to me...

TGU hands down.
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#114
Jazz`

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TGU is the ultimate toolbox. It is the greatest 1 monster toolbox the tcg game has ever known. Even glow up bulb and spore and the best tuners needed cards like dandy and tengu to be abused.

This. If you just ban sangan, TGU is still broken as hell. The only way to stop this is to restrict TGU itself.
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#115
mainestroke

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Its Konami, really.
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#116
Weevil89

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Sangan opens up a lot of plays for Rabbit and as it stands is the best target for TGU. If you ban sangan and dont touch TGU then people can just use Tour Bus, while not as good still has its uses like disrupting opposing graveyards and recycling your TGU's, whatever.

Personally I'd rather not TGU touched and would be fine with seeing Sangan banned. He's been a staple forever now and as time goes on the targets for him to grab from the deck just get better and better.


As much as Konami strive for equality of consideration of both OCG and TCG concerns, TGU is a TCG issue, and more than likely they won't concern themselves with it. The logic of banning a card has always been as such:

If a card is either overused to the point of abuse (and super splashable) or broken in a specific build (in which it would generate +1 or more for little or no cost) then it needs to be hit. If, however, the card has sufficient downsides, in terms of spell speed and answers in the current meta, then it likely won't be touched.

TGU can be veilered first turn, just like everything else we consider to be broken in this format. People always think about the what if scenarios --Assuming TGU comes off, look at the advantage you gain. This is true. But the fact that TGU has a limited set of targets is what Konami should be focusing on, not the effect itself. TGU essentially becomes redundant if you ban Sangan, which a lot of people here seem to be in agreement about. There's nothing people hate more than drawing into 3 TGUs. But imagine if drawing into 2 made him unplayable. That would be fair, in my opinion. Personally I don't see many decks using Tour Bus (apart from Wind-Ups and Rabbit, perhaps). Sangan is just better in so many ways. That's precisely why is Sangan is banned, TGU will be a fair engine to use.
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#117
Ultimate Buffalo

Ultimate Buffalo

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TGU is the ultimate toolbox. It is the greatest 1 monster toolbox the tcg game has ever known. Even glow up bulb and spore and the best tuners needed cards like dandy and tengu to be abused.


Magical scientist, pay 1k, get a Jinzo or a soul taker,a Kycoo, or metamorph into a permanent monster. but TGU kinda outshines scientist now a bit.
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#118
chuavechito

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TGU by itself is okey. Sangan is the think that brokes TGU.

I honestly though Konami was going to ban Sangan and unban Witch, after all, its been quite some time since we had Witch with us and they like to do that kind of stuff (Burial/Reborn for example).

Without Sangan TGU becomes much less of a staple.
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#119
Indignation

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TGU is the ultimate toolbox. It is the greatest 1 monster toolbox the tcg game has ever known. Even glow up bulb and spore and the best tuners needed cards like dandy and tengu to be abused.


Magical scientist, pay 1k, get a Jinzo or a soul taker,a Kycoo, or metamorph into a permanent monster. but TGU kinda outshines scientist now a bit.

Actually Scientist right now we be even more busted. He's a 1 card swarm the field thanks to XYZs.
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#120
Pharaoh Atem

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Scientist + Life Equalizer = I control multiple Tiras/Adreus/whatevs-else, and the opp's life is now 3000.
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