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Photon


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#1
Wolfgang DelaSangre

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UPDATE: Found a solution to the shuffling problem, albeit one that really irks me: Mix up the cards yourself in the Deck Editor. NEVER allow cards to group together unless you're aiming to increase your chances of getting them. If you've noticed an increase in Duplicates and Triplicates in your openings lately, it's because DN's shuffler looks at the deck in its Editor state before shuffling, and then does a poor job of mixing the cards up so stuff remains clumped together.

Am considering dropping Pot of Avarice, but not sure what for. Once Galaxy Knight and Galaxy Expedition come out, though, they're all going in.

Monsters: 20
3x Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon
3x Photon Crusher
3x Photon Kaiser
3x Photon Lizard
3x Photon Sabre Tiger
2x Photon Cerberus
2x Photon Thrasher
1x Honest

Spells: 17
3x Gold Sarcophagus
3x Pot of Duality
2x Mystical Space Typhoon
2x Photon Sanctuary
2x Polymerization
1x Future Fusion
1x Galaxy Queen's Light
1x Heavy Storm
1x Monster Reborn
1x Pot of Avarice

Traps: 3
2x Solemn Warning
1x Solemn Judgment

Extra Deck: 15
2x Twin Photon Lizard
1x Constellar Omega
1x Gem-Knight Pearl
1x Heroic Champion - Excalibur
1x Neo Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon
1x Number 17: Leviathan Dragon
1x Number 20: Giga-Brilliant
1x Number 30: Acid Golem of Destruction
1x Number 39: Utopia
1x Number 40: Gimmick Puppet - Heaven's Strings
1x Photon Papilloperative
1x Steelswarm Roach
1x Thunder End Dragon
1x Wind-Up Zenmaines
  • -62

#2
Pharaoh Atem

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I pay half my Life Points and Tribute Horakhty to Special Summon Pennington to this thread.
  • 9

#3
Urthor

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Screw blaming the shuffling system for your problems. It's your bad and inconsistent deck.
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#4
byakk

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future fusion dawg
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#5
Pharaoh Atem

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Well, that's not Pennington, but it will do.

No human can randomize a deck in 3 minutes as well as an algorithm can randomize said deck in 3 seconds. I would advise against bitching about shuffling, because goodness knows all the programs out there in this medium are able to shuffle a few fucktons better than any of us ever could, just by virtue of being programs.

Essentially, you getting bad hands is just the product of your focusing on hyper-anecdotal evidence and your getting a better randomization than any human could deliver.

Between RL and Program gameplay, which one's more likely to get a rigged or otherwise non-random result? RL, that's what.
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#6
Wolfgang DelaSangre

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I still say the shuffling is bad. 90% of the time, I get hands of mostly Spells, and draw no monsters for several turns on end. In a deck with 21 monsters. Sorry, but that makes as much sense as a root canal on someone with no teeth.

And God forbid I get a Galaxy-Eyes in my hand.

I might should also mention that I'm more likely to get triplicate of a card that's useless by itself than I am to get one copy of a card that isn't. Like the triple Photon Sanctuary I got not five minutes ago.

Also, trying Future Fusion with Triple Gold Sarc. So far have drawn exactly none of those.
  • -29

#7
Lejla

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You act like you're the only one who DN gives bad hands too with their "bad" shuffling algorithm. Gtfo.
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#8
white-bordered swamp

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90% of the time, I get hands of mostly Spells, and draw no monsters for several turns on end. In a deck with 21 monsters.

I'll bet you $1000 that in a sample size of 100 hands, less than 90 of them will consist of mostly spells. I don't know a lot about math and I lose bets pretty often around here, so you should probably take it.

Also, see this little flash object below?
type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> />

Enter two numbers separated by a comma (in the form a,b). A random number is generated between a and b each time. Do you notice any kind of pattern? No? That's because it's random. And guess what... each flash program uses the exact same method of generating random numbers... and that includes Dueling Network.
  • 19

#9
Pharaoh Atem

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I still say the shuffling is bad. 90% of the time, I get hands of mostly Spells, and draw no monsters for several turns on end. In a deck with 21 monsters. Sorry, but that makes as much sense as a root canal on someone with no teeth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
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#10
Pharaoh Atem

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If I had more time, I'd pay more LP and show you more cognitive biases you're using.
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#11
Wolfgang DelaSangre

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I'm aware of the fact that human brains are not (yet) built to understand probability. That said, I firmly believe probability to be a load of hogwash. Truly random particles do not exist. The ones we know about and suspect to exist have systems by which they operate. Without a system and without adherence to that system, reality as we know it would not exist. In fact, "reality" as a concept wouldn't exist.

No, this is a matter of DN's shuffling not wanting to give me a decent opening.

1) Mostly Spells does not help.

2) Only two monsters does not help (and should not be happening 4/5 of my duels in a 21 monster deck).

3) Having the means to summon Galaxy-Eyes but no Galaxy-Eyes does not help.

4) Not being able to do anything else with 3) does not help.

5) Triple Duality in my opening hand does not help. EVER.

6) Triple Sarc and Future Fusion are great. Not being able to draw them ever is not.

Every one of these things has happened. In every single duel, I will get some unfortunate combination of MOST of them that just makes it worse. I counted. You cannot tell me this is probability being a dick and convince me. This is a bad shuffle algorithm, and I came here asking for fixes to make the deck more compliant to said algorithm.

Any quick means of getting Galaxy-Eyes into my hand would be a good place to start. I had considered Draconnection, but I really don't want to turn this into a Hieratic Hybrid; I've already got one.

EDIT: So two things.

1) Just had an epic duel. With this deck. Somewhat modified, but it still worked out. First time it's ever actually done well, and it won. Plan to improve the Extra Deck. Utopia Ray will fit in nicely.

2) Three cards that will make this deck run much more smoothly have been announced for Duelist Pack: Kite, those being Photon Satellite (it changes its Level and another monster's Level to the sum of those Levels; so this plus Galaxy-Eyes equals Dyson Sphere), Galaxy Knight (Level 8, free summon if I have a Photon or Galaxy monster, and can revive Galaxy-Eyes) and Galaxy Expedition (brings out a Level 5 or higher Photon or Galaxy monster from my deck with the same Level as one on my field).
  • -34

#12
tolarian academy

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oh my god am i really gonna be the first one to say it you're drawing badly because your deck is a piece of shit and your attitude is awful
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#13
Pharaoh Atem

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Your beliefs are irrelevant, mathematically and otherwise-reasonably unsound, and (most importantly) in your fucking way of actually solving your bad hand problem.

The way to win these games is not to build what one wants to build, but to build something prepared for as many possible eventualities that one's opponents present as one can.
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#14
Urthor

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Screw blaming the shuffling system for your problems. It's your bad and inconsistent deck.

oh my god am i really gonna be the first one to say it you're drawing badly because your deck is a piece of shit and your attitude is awful

Been there, done that.
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#15
Wolfgang DelaSangre

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Your beliefs are irrelevant, mathematically and otherwise-reasonably unsound, and (most importantly) in your fucking way of actually solving your bad hand problem.

The way to win these games is not to build what one wants to build, but to build something prepared for as many possible eventualities that one's opponents present as one can.


Which is sorta difficult when your deck consistently gives you hands of 4 Spells and 2 monsters, then no monsters at all until after you've lost, which is equally baffling when you're running 21 monsters. Modifying the deck hasn't really helped. Sorry, Atem, but there's simply no way you can convince me that random particles exist, which would ultimately prove the concept of probability. A coin flip isn't determined by chance, it's determined by physics. Same with rain. Same with cards. Even the same with digital cards. Schroedinger was actually mocking the maybe-dead-cat idea when he came up with it. The cat's dead. Definitely.

Truth be told, the "epic duel" I had was more of a survival contest against a Stall Burn deck. The only reason I didn't lose to Simochi was because I had Normal'd Cerberus and then was able to pull shenanigans for Neo Galaxy-Eyes. I later sacrificed that Neo for GEPD Classic and used it and my remaining Kaiser for Thunder End Dragon, comboing it with Wind-Up Zenmaines to get stuff out of my way.

Also, THAT deck had 50 cards.

Again, looking forward to these new cards since they'll make Photons easier to run. Beyond that, though, any suggestions for speeding the deck up or making it work with DN's shuffling system are welcome.
  • -21

#16
byakk

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Your beliefs are irrelevant, mathematically and otherwise-reasonably unsound, and (most importantly) in your fucking way of actually solving your bad hand problem.

The way to win these games is not to build what one wants to build, but to build something prepared for as many possible eventualities that one's opponents present as one can.


Which is sorta difficult when your deck consistently gives you hands of 4 Spells and 2 monsters, then no monsters at all until after you've lost, which is equally baffling when you're running 21 monsters. Modifying the deck hasn't really helped. Sorry, Atem, but there's simply no way you can convince me that random particles exist, which would ultimately prove the concept of probability. A coin flip isn't determined by chance, it's determined by physics. Same with rain. Same with cards. Even the same with digital cards. Schroedinger was actually mocking the maybe-dead-cat idea when he came up with it. The cat's dead. Definitely.

Truth be told, the "epic duel" I had was more of a survival contest against a Stall Burn deck. The only reason I didn't lose to Simochi was because I had Normal'd Cerberus and then was able to pull shenanigans for Neo Galaxy-Eyes. I later sacrificed that Neo for GEPD Classic and used it and my remaining Kaiser for Thunder End Dragon, comboing it with Wind-Up Zenmaines to get stuff out of my way.

Also, THAT deck had 50 cards.

Again, looking forward to these new cards since they'll make Photons easier to run. Beyond that, though, any suggestions for speeding the deck up or making it work with DN's shuffling system are welcome.


have you read thunder end dragon? =/
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#17
white-bordered swamp

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    Like 8th edition or something?

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So are you sure don't want to bet me $1000? Judging by your experiences ITT, there's no way you could possibility lose right? Since, you know, God appears to have rigged luck against you?
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#18
Pharaoh Atem

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Your beliefs are irrelevant, mathematically and otherwise-reasonably unsound, and (most importantly) in your fucking way of actually solving your bad hand problem.

The way to win these games is not to build what one wants to build, but to build something prepared for as many possible eventualities that one's opponents present as one can.


Which is sorta difficult when your deck consistently gives you hands of 4 Spells and 2 monsters, then no monsters at all until after you've lost, which is equally baffling when you're running 21 monsters. Modifying the deck hasn't really helped. Sorry, Atem, but there's simply no way you can convince me that random particles exist, which would ultimately prove the concept of probability. A coin flip isn't determined by chance, it's determined by physics. Same with rain. Same with cards. Even the same with digital cards. Schroedinger was actually mocking the maybe-dead-cat idea when he came up with it. The cat's dead. Definitely.


The reason your beliefs are irrelevant, and mathematically and otherwise-reasonably unsound, is because it is ABSURD to say "because random particles don't exist, I'm justified in acting like this about the deck."

Even if they don't, then all that means is that it's your fucking fault you aren't getting the hands you want, either directly or indirectly.

In RL, you shuffle and are still further away from "random" than a computer - meaning that any time you do get a good hand, you deserve that hand less (because you've done a worse job randomizing, and are that much closer to just plain stacking), and any time you get a bad hand, it's still your fucking fault because your shuffle gave you an undesirable result.

In DN, it's your fault because you CONSENT TO DN'S ALGORITHM JUST BY USING DN IN THE FIRST PLACE, thereby revoking ANY AND ALL right to bitch when it doesn't give you what you want. BY TACITLY CONSENTING to the algorithm via using DN at all, you say "here, this algorithm is how I choose to shuffle today." In turn, this means that any time you get a bad hand, it's your fault because you STILL exhibited primary and direct control over the shuffle. You didn't HAVE to use DN: by choosing to use DN, you exhibit primary and direct control over whether or not you shuffle a certain way.


So, in summation: no matter your dueling medium, RL or DN, you are in control, so it's your own fault. Thus, stop complaining, and stop acting entitled to success in this card game. You're entitled to a good life, not to win in card games.



Your bad hand problem won't be solved by never getting bad hands. It'll be solved by making you grow up and realize it's absurd to bitch about said hands when you CONSENT TO GETTING THEM BY PLAYING THE GAME.
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#19
yoyoba

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Why do people think, the reason they suck is some shit on illuminati-level?
Dear god, you're not the center of the yugiworld, everyone uses the same algorithm, and they don't seem to have problems, do they?
You suck. It's like all the people who whine about their 4 normals in the opening hand, while the opp had the perfect matching outs.
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#20
white-bordered swamp

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    Like 8th edition or something?

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You're entitled to a good life, not to win in card games.

Glaring contradiction.
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#21
Narcissist Alex

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Hands with too many spells and not enough monsters? Take out spells and add monsters. Problem solved
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#22
dexer008

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You're running 6 lv8 monsters, why not run trade-in? You could also maybe run some more defensive traps until you draw your monsters instead of the bitching you keep saying about drawing 4 spells, 2 monsters. Polymerization is just bad in general card advantage wise most of the time, your giving up 3 cards to summon 1, not to mention your opponents cards as well. Photon Twin Lizard, yes makes up for that but still, I would much rather use future fusion. Heck, maybe you could try king of the swamp to get to the polys if you be arrogant and ignore said advice, If it was me also, I would make this deck much more orientated to a goal instead of this deck which is using bad photon cards. Your idea of Draconnection sounds much better; you could run the Photon Galaxy Dragons, LADD's and some other lv8 light dragon and have some pretty easy means to get out said cards. You could also then use stuff like precious cards from the beyond or advanced draw for a draw engine in your deck so you can hit your monsters due " DN's poor shuffling"
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#23
tolarian academy

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omg dn shuffling illuminati conspiracy fuck the fascists ron paul 2012
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#24
Chris Buraseru

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Photon Cerberus sucks, Kaiser Seahorse is unnecessary, Galaxy Queens Light is unnecessary, Sanctuary just for GEPD and Kaiser is dumb. Photon Lead, just what. Also why do you run Poly and not run Fufu and please increase your trap count and try to fit some Skill Drains or some shit in here so you don't get fucked up.

Also it's been said already, but when you badly construct a deck, you will get shitty draws. Take this to Pojo.
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#25
Exiled

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23 posts and I expected a good Photon deck

nice anime deck though.
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#26
Chris Buraseru

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23 posts and I expected a good Photon deck

nice anime deck though.

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  • 16

#27
davicim0

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Sorry, Atem, but there's simply no way you can convince me that random particles exist, which would ultimately prove the concept of probability. A coin flip isn't determined by chance, it's determined by physics. Same with rain. Same with cards. Even the same with digital cards.


I don't think we're trying to convince you that perfect randomness exists. Whether or not there exists something that is ultimately, truly random is irrelevant. Probability is a conceptual model that's useful for analyzing complex systems and situations. Sure, if you knew all of the initial conditions of a coin toss to within some certain accuracy, you could probably determine whether the coin lands on heads or tails. But could you actually do that? When you toss a coin in real life, do you know the mass of the coin, your local gravitational force, how air resistance affects the toss, and the exact energy you put into the coin? Absolutely not! So what do you do instead? You make a guess. You say, "There are two possible outcomes, and if I'm trying to be fair about my coin flip, I don't see any reason why one outcome should happen more frequently than the other." And then you go from there, and your model isn't perfect, but holy fuck it's close enough.

So we accept something like the fact that the orderings generated by DN are pseudo-random. And we can be comfortable with this because these pseudo-random numbers behave very much like orderings that are perfectly random. To be more precise, we can compare some distribution of random numbers, and within some reasonable restrictions, this pseudo-random distribution behaves exactly as we would expect a perfectly random distribution to behave--a random distribution that we calculated not using pseudo-random generators or coin flips but with logic.

I understand where you're coming from, but you really shouldn't dismiss probability because you believe there are no perfectly random events or occurrences. It's true that probability is in that sense not a perfect tool, but it's still very useful and extremely accurate. Even the classical mechanics used to analyze the coin flip you mention isn't a complete theory; it breaks down at small distances and high speeds. All physicists know this, but we don't say that classical mechanics is hogwash. We recognize that it's not a complete theory. But in everyday situations like coin flips, classical mechanics is close enough to being correct that it is all we need to investigate.
  • 5

#28
Pharaoh Atem

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Classical mechanics is simply a map that is accurate enough regarding the territory of reality for 99% of our daily purposes to be treated as ok.

If we wanted, we could use the more accurate map of quantum mechanics to calculate what we need to know about all of reality, but there isn't enough computing and processing power in the world to do that, thanks TO all of the things to consider and measure.

Neither of the methods - neither "map" - is a perfectly accurate representation of reality - of "the territory".


When we change how we think about things, we aren't changing reality. We're updating our own minds with more information about reality - we're "redrawing the map in our heads to more closely correlate with reality."

This does not mean "classical mechanics works most of the time, and quantum works when classical doesn't." It means "classical is an inferior map, like how some world maps make Alaska look bigger than the US and Canada put together thanks to the flaws of mercator projection, but the flaws of that map are not in the way of what we want."
  • 0

#29
Pharaoh Atem

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http://wiki.lesswron...t_the_territory
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#30
Pharaoh Atem

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omg dn shuffling illuminati conspiracy fuck the fascists ron paul 2012


You just made this thread something I need to show to ash
  • 2

#31
tolarian academy

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dont make me the next quack
  • 3

#32
bherrell2

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i am relatively sure you get worse hands if the shuffling system is purely random, whereas irl you are more likely to draw reasonable hands because it isn't so to speak random

someone correct me if i am wrong
  • -6

#33
white-bordered swamp

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    Like 8th edition or something?

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i am relatively sure you get worse hands if the shuffling system is purely random, whereas irl you are more likely to draw reasonable hands because it isn't so to speak random

someone correct me if i am wrong

Manipulating your deck in a non-random way that improves your hand quality is known as "stacking".
  • 5

#34
bherrell2

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i am relatively sure you get worse hands if the shuffling system is purely random, whereas irl you are more likely to draw reasonable hands because it isn't so to speak random

someone correct me if i am wrong

Manipulating your deck in a non-random way that improves your hand quality is known as "stacking".


it has nothing to do with stacking

hands are not random irl because they are not in a random order when you start shuffling. they are in a similar order used in the last duel, and are often shuffled in piles. even if you pile shuffle, that is still a set non-random process.
  • -1

#35
rei

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bherrel I get what you're trying to say, in that even with differnet shuffling techniques the cards are 'biased' in the sense of how they were initially played, however most studies have shown that after shuffling a fairly small amount of time with most shuffling techniques that the cards are effectively truly random.

From a computer sceince standpoint there are issues with some random number generators as at best a number can be pseudo-random in computing - that said there's no way the DN RNG is predisposed to give you certain hands unless its seed is the same every time. And considering I am fairly sure it uses both date and mousepos for the random seed there's no way it could have any biases unless you always duel at exactly the same time, day, and year and always leave your mouse on the exact same pixel on the screen regardless of context.

The randon number generator in Flash is fine. Don't get mad, get better.
  • 0

#36
Urthor

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Some1 needs to get Chris an aerial so he can use background radiation for randomisation.

Btw, rei does that come off my local PC clock? Because if it is I totally am testing locking my mouse and system time and testing my opening hands.
  • 0

#37
rei

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uh, it likely comes off the clock on their server, or your internal system clock which does not ac tually match up to your windows clock.
I also could be completely wrong on this, its just time and mouse pos are the most common seedsa for randomizers.
Famously Pokemon Emerald accidentally didn't reset its seeds so you can abuse the shit out of the RNG in that game - but even then its still sufficiently random to not dick you, and theres no way DN is as badly implemented as that.
  • 0

#38
Pinulu

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dont like multiple gallexy eyes without ninja set up just my prefference instead of hanzo and super transforms ur running a bunch of stuff u dont really need but to each his own
  • 0

#39
Chris Buraseru

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dont like multiple gallexy eyes without ninja set up just my prefference instead of hanzo and super transforms ur running a bunch of stuff u dont really need but to each his own

That's a whole different build though. He's making pure Photons, which is do-able, but he's not doing it correctly. And even with a Ninja engine, GEPD is still kind of underwhelming in multiples.
  • 0

#40
MastaOfChaos

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I don't like this build at all. Also human brains do understand probabilities as it's a proven fact that the biggest super computer is the human brain. Your complaining about bad hands but that's because your deck build is very inconsistent anyways and inconsistencies make the probabilities for you to get a decent hand worse by a good margin.
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