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Mermail/Atlantean - Discussion

September 2012

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2035 replies to this topic

#1
chuavechito

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MERMAIL/ATLANTEAN - DISCUSSION






Mermail/Atlantean (or simply, Mermail) is a deck composed of two archetypes, Mermails and Atlanteans.

Atlantean is an archetype of Water Sea Serpent-Type monsters introduced (as archetype) in Return of the Duelist and the Structure Deck: Realm of the Sea Emperor.

Mermail is an archetype of Water and Aqua, Fish and Sea Serpent-Type monsters introduced in Abyss Rising. They are mermaids (Mer) with armor (mail).

Atlanteans active their effects when they are sent to the graveyard to activate a Water monster's effect. Mermails are Water monsters who active their effects by discarding Water monsters.

In biology, this is known as Symbiosis, a close and often long-term interaction between two or more different biological species.

THE MERMAILS





Spoiler

THE ATLANTEANS




Spoiler

OTHER MONSTERS




Spoiler

SPELLS AND TRAPS




Spoiler

EXTRA DECK




Spoiler


EXAMPLE DECKS



Spoiler

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#2
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good post.

pre-mermail since we just got the structure deck, ive been messing with this


3 Atlantean Heavy Infantry
3 Atlantean Marksman
3 Deep Sea Diva
2 Atlantean Attack Squad
2 Thunder King Rai-oh
2 Abyss Soldier
1 Atlantean Dragoons
1 Gorz, Emissary of Darkness
-17

2 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Pot of Duality
2 Salvage
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole
1 Monster Reborn
1 Pot of Avarice
1 Book of Moon
1 Call of the Atlanteans
-12

2 Solemn Warning
2 Mirror Force
2 Dimensional Prison
2 Compulsory Evacuation Device
2 Torrential Tribute
1 Solemn Judgment
-11

______________

1 Ally of Justice Catastor
1 Gaia Knight, Force of the Earth
1 Gungnir, Dragon of the Ice Barrier
1 Scrap Dragon
1 Stardust Dragon
1 T.G. Hyper Librarian
1 Mist Wurm
1 Black Rose Dragon
1 Daigusto Phoenix
1 Gachi Gachi Gatentsu
1 Number 17: Leviathan Dragon
1 Leviair The Sea Dragon
1 Wind-Up Zenmaines
1 Number 30: Acid Golem of Destruction
1 Adreus, Keeper of Armageddon

it runs kind of like agents. it's treated me well so far.

i didnt like the birdman / undine route because i needed to make 5-6 spaces for the undines / controllers and while birdman is neat, after testing for 2 weeks now ive found it to be cute and all, but i like this approach more.

i dont like dragoons right now either since every time i draw it its just a beatstick (when mermails come out, i am going to max it without hesitation tho lol).

dragon ice / all that other gimmick stuff i didnt like too much either. abyss soldier is the only discard outlet that i felt did anything to the meta.
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#3
Lauren

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Great post.

For the Undine+Offering Combo, you can bring out a Second Diva with Diva's Effect Instead.
Your Field: Undine, Diva, Diva.
Pay 500 to summon Controller.
Synch Undine and Controller for Dewloren, bounce both Divas.
Pay 500, summon Diva, pull a Level 3 with its effects. Synch for Librarian.
From here you can choose what you want to make with your second diva. Plus, Dewloren is at 3000.
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#4
neptune

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idk why anyone would be trying to play this pre-abyr
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#5
mikey p?

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Yay, a thread.
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#6
.ben.

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idk why anyone would be trying to play this pre-abyr

Pre-abyr, Undine is still a bad ass and there are diva plays that are strong. But, largely, I agree. I think it's the Mermails that form the deck's core.
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#7
mikey p?

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Still, I bet they will see a good amount of play in the early rounds at providence. They won't go father then that though.
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#8
chuavechito

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Updated OP. Ultimate Offering + Undine is OTK. I didnt realized this because NONE of the OCG versions I saw (+20) plays Gishlnodon.

Summon Undine, Drop Dragoons, Search Controller, Search Diva
Summon Diva (-500), search Diva
Summon Controller (-500)
Synchro Controller and Undine for Dewloren
Bounce both Divas, +1000 ATK
Summon Diva (-500), search Marksman
Synchro Diva and Marksman for Gishlnodon
Summon Diva (-500), search Marksman
Synchro Diva and Gishlnodon for Gungir
Clear field with Gungir
Attack with Marksman, summon Dragoons
1400 1800 + 2500 + 3000 = 8700

Also, Atlanteans can be played without Mermails but they are not near as competitive. You will need to relay on Birdman for OTK, Undine for control and Dragon Ice. The problem is you wont have any way (past Dragon Ice or Abss Soldier) to discard in hand Atlanteans to pay for Water monsters effects.
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#9
ThatOneGuy

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Gungnir?
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#10
chuavechito

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#11
ThatOneGuy

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I meant that was another discard outlet..
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#12
kovah

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In my rough tests I was using Abyss Soldier and Call of the atlanteans, but in those sample decklists I see neither, these cards seem so good in theory, why are they not being run?
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#13
JustBeKrillin

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3 Deep Sea Diva
3 Genex Undine
2 Genex Controller
1 Moulinglacia the Elemental Lord
3 Mermail - Abysspike
3 mermail - Abysslinde
2 Mermail - Abyssmegalo
3 Atlantean Marksman
3 Atlantean Heavy Infantry
2 Atlantean Dragoons
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness

3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Salvage
1 Pot of Avarice
1 Monster Reborn
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole

3 Abyssphere
2 Torrential Tribute

Gonna test this out in preparation for mermails ;o
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#14
canasian

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Updated OP. Ultimate Offering + Undine is OTK. I didnt realized this because NONE of the OCG versions I saw (+20) plays Gishlnodon.

Summon Undine, Drop Dragoons, Search Controller, Search Diva
Summon Diva (-500), search Diva
Summon Controller (-500)
Synchro Controller and Undine for Dewloren
Bounce both Divas, +1000 ATK
Summon Diva (-500), search Marksman
Synchro Diva and Marksman for Gishlnodon
Summon Diva (-500), search Marksman
Synchro Diva and Gishlnodon for Gungir
Clear field with Gungir
Attack with Marksman, summon Dragoons
1400 1800 + 2500 + 3000 = 8700

Also, Atlanteans can be played without Mermails but they are not near as competitive. You will need to relay on Birdman for OTK, Undine for control and Dragon Ice. The problem is you wont have any way (past Dragon Ice or Abss Soldier) to discard in hand Atlanteans to pay for Water monsters effects.

You can more simply OTK by using the 2 Divas to go into any level 5 and then make Phoenix with Diva and Heavy Infantry, although Gungnir is more effective if they have more than 1 card on the field.
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#15
neptune

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Updated OP. Ultimate Offering + Undine is OTK. I didnt realized this because NONE of the OCG versions I saw (+20) plays Gishlnodon.

Summon Undine, Drop Dragoons, Search Controller, Search Diva
Summon Diva (-500), search Diva
Summon Controller (-500)
Synchro Controller and Undine for Dewloren
Bounce both Divas, +1000 ATK
Summon Diva (-500), search Marksman
Synchro Diva and Marksman for Gishlnodon
Summon Diva (-500), search Marksman
Synchro Diva and Gishlnodon for Gungir
Clear field with Gungir
Attack with Marksman, summon Dragoons
1400 1800 + 2500 + 3000 = 8700

Also, Atlanteans can be played without Mermails but they are not near as competitive. You will need to relay on Birdman for OTK, Undine for control and Dragon Ice. The problem is you wont have any way (past Dragon Ice or Abss Soldier) to discard in hand Atlanteans to pay for Water monsters effects.


did you mean normal summon dragoons?
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#16
Karmaface

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Great OP but I would not call Abyssgunde and Abyssturge sub optimal at all, since more than a few people have gripes with having to dedicate 6-7 spots to the Undine/Controller engine (I draw Controller with no Allure/Ultimate Offering like it's my day job).

Abyssturge lets you get back Diva and all your ammo, and Abyssgunde lets you wombo combo and sets up neat Rank 4 plays.

Cutting those 6-7 cards gives you room for that 1:1 ratio of those monsters + better cards like MST, the ability to play more traps, and tech like Maxx "C".

Also, I think the cards from Cosmo Blazer should be added soon, the support in there is ridiculous. :S
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#17
.ben.

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I think the long and short of it is Dewloren + Ultimate Offering = OTK
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#18
Pking

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Decklist:
Monsters (24)
3x Atlantean Heavy Infantry
3x Atlantean Marksman
2x Atlantean Dragoons
1x Atlantean Attack Squad
1x Elemental Hero Stratos
3x Elemental Hero Ice Edge
3x Deep Sea Diva
3x Genex Undine
2x Genex Controller
2x Effect Veiler
1x Gorz the Emissary of Darkness

Spells (14)
2x Miracle Fusion
2x Mystical Space Typhoon
2x Pot of Duality
2x Salvage
2x E - Emergency Call
1x Reinforcement of the Army
1x Monster Reborn
1x Heavy Storm
1x Dark Hole

Traps (2)
2x Spiritual Water Art - Aoi

This is a new concept i thought of while i was searching for Hero cards. I saw Ice Edge, and immediately thought of Atlanteans.
Ice Edge discards your atlanteans, you get their effect and you still get the +1 of destroying the S/T.
That's not a side deck. It's just some ideas i have that i could incorporate in the deck. Super Poly is a good card, specially when you have those controllers you got from undine. Decrees may be good, but i think not at the moment. I dont think that the 3rd mst is also needed for now.
I wanna test Tragoedias instead of veilers and play allure, since now the deck has 5 darks, 2 of them controllers you easily search.
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#19
Gear

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This deck is MONTHS old but this is what I was using for awhile. It worked pretty good and is more control based than OTK.


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#20
Exxod

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Did anyone test Morray of Greed? In my test's the card seems so good, it gets those nasty Atlanteans from your hand and gives you more chances to grab key cards our protection.
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#21
Doodlebug

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After talking about the deck with Dawgy, I honestly believe that running triple Compulsory Evacuation Device and Call of the Haunted should be a standard in this deck. I'd like to get a bit of input with the current build that I'm playing.

Spoiler

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#22
Sanjura

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Just relying on Gungnir/Marksman to hit backrow seems silly.
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#23
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Did anyone test Morray of Greed? In my test's the card seems so good, it gets those nasty Atlanteans from your hand and gives you more chances to grab key cards our protection.


i didnt like it too much. and topdecking it was horrible.
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#24
Mascis

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Did anyone test Morray of Greed? In my test's the card seems so good, it gets those nasty Atlanteans from your hand and gives you more chances to grab key cards our protection.

I'm playing it in my pre-Abyss Rising build and I'm liking it more than I did Duality, but I keep running into problems where i just draw Genex Controllers. :\
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#25
chuavechito

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@Pking: I love that idea. I will try something like that tonite.

I meant that was another discard outlet..

Oh, my bad. I dont think you can relay on your Atlanteans been discard'd by Gungir as he requres a lot to work (and something like Thunder Dragon would work way better).

In my rough tests I was using Abyss Soldier and Call of the atlanteans, but in those sample decklists I see neither, these cards seem so good in theory, why are they not being run?

Thoses are are good for the Atlanteans deck. This is the Mermail/Atlantean Discussion. They are terrible in a Mermail/Atlantean deck.

3 Deep Sea Diva
3 Genex Undine
2 Genex Controller
1 Moulinglacia the Elemental Lord
3 Mermail - Abysspike
3 mermail - Abysslinde
2 Mermail - Abyssmegalo
3 Atlantean Marksman
3 Atlantean Heavy Infantry
2 Atlantean Dragoons
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness

3 Mystical Space Typhoon
2 Salvage
1 Pot of Avarice
1 Monster Reborn
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole

3 Abyssphere
2 Torrential Tribute

Gonna test this out in preparation for mermails ;o

I strongly suggest you to add Allure. Also 3 Dragoons are sick. You should cut 2 out of either 3rd Spike, Dark Hole or Gorz.

You can more simply OTK by using the 2 Divas to go into any level 5 and then make Phoenix with Diva and Heavy Infantry, although Gungnir is more effective if they have more than 1 card on the field.

Im not sure if you realize Phoenix is Wind, he doesnt trigger Heavy Infantry's effect.

did you mean normal summon dragoons?

No, use Undine to send Dragoons from deck to the graveyard, that will trigger Dragoons's effect.

Great OP but I would not call Abyssgunde and Abyssturge sub optimal at all, since more than a few people have gripes with having to dedicate 6-7 spots to the Undine/Controller engine (I draw Controller with no Allure/Ultimate Offering like it's my day job).

Abyssturge lets you get back Diva and all your ammo, and Abyssgunde lets you wombo combo and sets up neat Rank 4 plays.

Cutting those 6-7 cards gives you room for that 1:1 ratio of those monsters + better cards like MST, the ability to play more traps, and tech like Maxx "C".

Also, I think the cards from Cosmo Blazer should be added soon, the support in there is ridiculous. :S

Gunde and Turge are shit imo. They requiere you to have plenty cards in your graveyard to work. I have only seen 1 OCG version with 1 of each and I have never seen an OCG version with more than 1 of either.

Undine is SICK without Allure of Offering. You dont need Allure or Offering AT ALL in order to go nuts with Undine.

Some people dont run him tho, but the majority does, so feel free to choose between running or not running, but dont say he is ineffective because he is one of the most consistent cards in the deck.

Cosmo Blazer wasnt even fully confirmed afaik and we wont see any of that until the next banlist so is quite pointless to discuss that now.
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#26
canasian

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You can more simply OTK by using the 2 Divas to go into any level 5 and then make Phoenix with Diva and Heavy Infantry, although Gungnir is more effective if they have more than 1 card on the field.

Im not sure if you realize Phoenix is Wind, he doesnt trigger Heavy Infantry's effect.

How does Heavy Infantry need to be activated in any way whatsoever for 1500+1500+3000+2400/2200 to be <8000?
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#27
chuavechito

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You can more simply OTK by using the 2 Divas to go into any level 5 and then make Phoenix with Diva and Heavy Infantry, although Gungnir is more effective if they have more than 1 card on the field.

Im not sure if you realize Phoenix is Wind, he doesnt trigger Heavy Infantry's effect.

How does Heavy Infantry need to be activated in any way whatsoever for 1500+1500+3000+2400/2200 to be <8000?

Why would you go Phoenix instead Grungir? He can clear the field and you will have a way better field if they Gorz/Trago. Your combo fails if they have any card on the board.
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#28
Dawgy

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Here is a deck I posted in a separate thread a while back. Still relevant: http://duelistground...howtopic=147102

I still don't feel as if Undine is the best direction to take the deck, as I think it's kind of unnecessary, slow, and inconsistent. Granted Ultimate Offering OTK is nice, but the card is limited after all (and somewhat unnecessary too).

Here is a post I made regarding my feelings behind the deck in a separate thread.

Spoiler


Basically the build I posted just sort of plays around backrow rather than needing to destroy it. Yes, no MST in the main seems pretty bad, but CotH function similar to MST, except with more versatility (as does Abyssphere). Normal summoning Marksman against no monsters is really good at baiting out backrow. Discarding him through Abysspike is also pretty decent at getting rid of backrow before you attempt to OTK. Compulsory can also be used to play around backrow/veiler.

I am considering Tragoedia over Veiler, however, since Veiler seems pretty suboptimal g2 and g3 when DFissure kind of rips this deck a new one (which is why I have Airorca in the side). I'd rather not lose even harder to DFissure. Veiler is still really good though, however, so I'm not quite sure yet. I'll PROBABLY keep the Veilers in the main, and try to fit one Trag in the main and one in the side (seeing how he's pretty awesome game 2 and 3, since a lot of people side in shit like Rai-Oh alongside heavy backrow, and Trag is pretty cool against Rai-Oh).

About Salvage: I'm unsure of how I feel about this card. I'm definitely going to run it once we get Mermail Abyssdine, as that just seems really silly. At this current point in time, however, the only things I'd really be grabbing with it (since I don't run Undine) are Marksman and Diva, both of which I have amazing access to anyways (Marksman through the three copies, dragoons, Abysspike, and TGU + Sangan, and Diva through the three copies I run, dragoons, and TGU + Sangan).

I realize that a lot of you have probably already read what I am quoting, but I'd like to get it inside of this thread, seeing how this will serve as the main discussion thread for this deck.

*EDIT* Slightly confused on why I'm getting negged for this, when I received a lot of pos votes in the other thread...
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#29
chuavechito

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First of all, that build seems pretty bad. Waaay to slow, no explosiveness at all. You will get raped by Geargias, Dragons or Windups easily.

Now, for the sake of argument, lets ignore the fact that 90% of OCG players (who played this deck A LOT and has barely the same card pool) plays Undine.


Genex Undine: Genex Controller is a piece of shit. Genex Controller needs to be in your deck to get the most of Genex Undine, meaning you actually need to dedicate at least 5 main deck slots to this fucker (AND SKILLFULLY NOT DRAW CONTROLLER). Above all else, it's slow. It's one of those scenarios where just because you went +2 doesn't mean you're really in that much of a better position. Genex Undine has a shitty body. Genex Controller is PRETTY FUCKING BAD if Genex Undine dies, and EVEN IF IT DOESN'T DIE, BRIONAC IS BANNED LOLOLOL. So yeah, Genex Undine PROBABLY ISN'T WORTH IT.


Undine:
* LETS YOU PLAY ALLURE OF DARKNESS WHO IS A FUCKING POT OF GREED IN HERE.
* Cannot be stoped with Veiler.
* Lets you active Card Destruction without the -1.
* Makes Salvage instantly alive.
* Has a 2 cards OTK combo that doesnt requires you to clear the opponent field before hand.
* You normal summon a card, send 1 Water for Moulglacia/Salvage to the GY and trigger ANY Atlantean. Meaning:
* You can search a Lv3 Tuner to your hand FOR FREE and...
- Destroy a Monster.
- Destroy a Spell or Trap.
- Search Diva for a big play next turn.
- Search Moulinglacia and summon him (if you have 4 Waters in GY).
- Search Abyssmegalo (who can make huge plays or simply OTK if you have enough Waters in hand)
... Now, explain me how that "is not worth it".

Also, let me put things in perspective:

Genex Undine: Genex Controller is a piece of shit. Genex Controller needs to be in your deck to get the most of Genex Undine, meaning you actually need to dedicate at least 5 main deck slots to this fucker (AND SKILLFULLY NOT DRAW CONTROLLER).


Rescue Rabbit: Sabersaurus/Kabazauls are a piece of shit. Sabersaurus/Kabazauls need to be in your deck to get the most of Rescue Rabbit, meaning you actually need to dedicate at least 12 main deck slots to this fucker (AND SKILLFULLY NOT DRAW SABERSAURUS/KABAZAULS).


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#30
SpiceyYanni1

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Hey, this is the build I was messing around with for the past 2 days. Pretty much because the deck needs discard outlets without mermails right now and it needs boss monsters so I found a way to fill those gaps for now.

Monsters: 27

3x Genex Undine
2x Genex Controller
3x Deep Sea Diva
3x Atlantean Dragoons
3x Atlantean Marksman
3x Atlantean Heavy Infantry
1x Atlantean Attack Squad
1x Elemental HERO Stratos
3x Elemental HERO Ice Edge
1x Gorz
2x Trag
2x Veiler

Spells: 14

1x Heavy
1x Dark Hole
1x Reborn
1x Avarice
1x Allure
1x ROTA
2x Duality
2x Salvage
1x MST
3x Miracle Fusion


Miracle Fusion obviously gets you the abs zero and the ice edge is that discard outlet that this deck really needs right now. It's actually really really consistent and gains soooo much advantage.
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#31
Dawgy

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First of all, that build seems pretty bad. Waaay to slow, no explosiveness at all. You will get raped by Geargias, Dragons or Windups easily.

Now, for the sake of argument, lets ignore the fact that 90% of OCG players (who played this deck A LOT and has barely the same card pool) plays Undine.


Genex Undine: Genex Controller is a piece of shit. Genex Controller needs to be in your deck to get the most of Genex Undine, meaning you actually need to dedicate at least 5 main deck slots to this fucker (AND SKILLFULLY NOT DRAW CONTROLLER). Above all else, it's slow. It's one of those scenarios where just because you went +2 doesn't mean you're really in that much of a better position. Genex Undine has a shitty body. Genex Controller is PRETTY FUCKING BAD if Genex Undine dies, and EVEN IF IT DOESN'T DIE, BRIONAC IS BANNED LOLOLOL. So yeah, Genex Undine PROBABLY ISN'T WORTH IT.


Undine:
* LETS YOU PLAY ALLURE OF DARKNESS WHO IS A FUCKING POT OF GREED IN HERE.
* Cannot be stoped with Veiler.
* Lets you active Card Destruction without the -1.
* Makes Salvage instantly alive.
* Has a 2 cards OTK combo that doesnt requires you to clear the opponent field before hand.
* You normal summon a card, send 1 Water for Moulglacia/Salvage to the GY and trigger ANY Atlantean. Meaning:
* You can search a Lv3 Tuner to your hand FOR FREE and...
- Destroy a Monster.
- Destroy a Spell or Trap.
- Search Diva for a big play next turn.
- Search Moulinglacia and summon him (if you have 4 Waters in GY).
- Search Abyssmegalo (who can make huge plays or simply OTK if you have enough Waters in hand)
... Now, explain me how that "is not worth it".

Also, let me put things in perspective:

Genex Undine: Genex Controller is a piece of shit. Genex Controller needs to be in your deck to get the most of Genex Undine, meaning you actually need to dedicate at least 5 main deck slots to this fucker (AND SKILLFULLY NOT DRAW CONTROLLER).


Rescue Rabbit: Sabersaurus/Kabazauls are a piece of shit. Sabersaurus/Kabazauls need to be in your deck to get the most of Rescue Rabbit, meaning you actually need to dedicate at least 12 main deck slots to this fucker (AND SKILLFULLY NOT DRAW SABERSAURUS/KABAZAULS).


Did you know that there are several popular OCG builds that DON'T run Undine? Did you know that out of the four OCG builds you linked, only ONE runs Undine? Something to think about.

As for your bulletpoint list, here is a counterpoint respective to each one:
  • Allure of Darkness is NOT a Pot of Greed. Have you read Pot of Greed? Second off, it requires you to open with one of 5 cards to possibly be live the turn you draw it. While Allure is obviously good when you summon Undine, that isn't always going to be the case when you draw it. And it's one card. A single card, once again, does not legitimize the use of the Undine engine.
  • It can't be stopped with Veiler, but whatever you follow it up with, on the other hand, can. You can't make any follow-up plays with the Undine unless you have backrow (because 1200 ATK is nothing great, and will get stomped the next turn). Brionac is banned, so most follow-up plays with Genex Undine that don't involve Ultimate Offering are not spectacular at all.
  • Card Destruction? Are you fucking serious?
  • Makes Salvage instantly live...? I don't think 'instantly' means what you think it means. By your logic, all it takes is Diva to make Salvage instantly live. That point is pretty irrelevant, considering you won't be using Genex Undine's effect more than twice per duel (in most scenarios). I also don't play Salvage, because I feel that in my Undine-less build, it's unneeded. Perhaps I'll see otherwise, but Salvage, once again, does not legitimize Undine.
  • 2 Card OTK? If you're NOT talking about Ultimate Offering, PLEASE correct me, but otherwise, not only is Ultimate Offering limited, but it requires a turn of set-up, it sucks to draw late-game, and it requires you to have the nuts if your opponent has backrow. Ultimate Offering is an okay card, but it's definitely nothing spectacular. I can accomplish pretty much the same thing with my deck while also being able to:
A) Not need an inconsistent two-card combo to OTK (I understand that Undine + UO is just one of several ways to OTK, but the point I'm trying to make is that I don't need
either card to do it)
B) Not lose to backrow in almost any scenario
C) STILL have plays in the event my opponent happens to have 'the out' (Abyssphere is pretty incredible, Abyssmegalo doesn't use the Normal Summon, and Call of the Haunted is a nice recovery option)

I can't say whether or not the deck you're using Undine in is capable of that or not (because you didn't give me a list to make a counter-argument off of), but I can say that if I can OTK/make power plays pretty regularly/easily WITHOUT Undine, why do I need Undine at all?
  • I understand what Genex Undine does. You didn't need to list what I can do with it. What I think you fail to realize is that the +2 that Genex Undine provides is a VERY soft +2, meaning the cards you're actually getting out of it aren't that great. I hardly count a 1200 ATK monster as part of that advantage (Wind-Up Rabbit can off it very easily, for example). It does nothing unless you combine it with another card (which you'll probably search off of Dragoons). So with that point, it now comes out to a +1. HOWEVER, Genex Controller is pretty fucking useless in-hand unless you combine it with 1 of 2 cards (Allure of Darkness and Ultimate Offering). Before you mention Gungnir, it'd actually need to be able to hit the field successfully, which shouldn't happen as often as you might think. So now that leaves us with the pretty much ONLY useful card you get out of Undine. The card you destroyed of your opponent's, or the search you get off of Dragoons. That makes it effectively a 1 for 1. Then why don't I like it? It requires you to run Genex Controller (which you could very well draw into, don't forget, making your Undine(s) dead. Genex Undine is also VERY slow. Oh, you can search it with Abysspike? Is your opponent REALLY going to let you go Abysspike => Discard something => Undine. Pass. Next turn => Undine => ditch Dragoons => Search => Pass. WITHOUT a play to make themselves? With Abysspike, you'll need THREE turns to make a play (in most scenarios). When drawing Undine, you need TWO turns. If THAT'S not slow to you, I don't think you understand what the word 'slow' ACTUALLY means.
Your Dino Rabbit analogy is god-awful. First off, the Dino-Rabbit engine takes up 9 Main Deck Slots. Second off, the 'Genex Undine' of that deck (Rescue Rabbit), invalidates your analogy because with Rescue Rabbit, you can make a POWERFUL PLAY the turn you summon it (Laggia / Dolkka) rather than camping on your combo pieces until the next turn. The way the Dino-Rabbit is designed makes full use of your dead Sabersaurus and Kabazauls because of the way the deck is built (anti-metaish). This means Dino Rabbit can take COMPLETE advantage of the 1700/1900 beatsticks to apply PRESSURE with cards like Forbidden Lance alongside monster removal, meaning there is a pretty good chance they'll be staying on the field until the next turn, unlike Undine/Controller would in Atlantean Mermails. Draw two Vanillas in Dino-Rabbit, and you have a chance to possibly make Laggia/Dolkka. Draw two vanillas in Genex Undine Atlantean Mermail.dek, lose the duel.


I'm offended at your shitty analogy and your use of it to put words into my mouth (through the comparison of apples and oranges). While I appreciate your Original Post in this thread, you shouldn't be so quick to shut down my build of the deck just because I despise the Undine engine and chose not to use it, when you clearly said that Undine IS NOT ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED in every Atlantean Mermail build.

Also, point out the ACTUAL flaws of my deck, and then we'll talk. Actually dueling with it would help too.
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#32
Karmaface

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Has anyone tested Abysscale - Kraken with any success?
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#33
yoyoba

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I'll agree on your opinion to undine.
But I seriously can't play this deck without MST's.
Sure you can kind of play around, but this is not Chaos Dragon where you can just throw big monsters at their face. The normal summon is way too important in this deck imo.
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#34
im'a beetle!!

im'a beetle!!

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2 Pike
2 Linde
3 Megal
3 Sphere

That is 10 more ways to get Undine, barring Veiler which hurts all the other plays you'd have without Undine anyways. Of course this is at least 5 cards to get him without condition (being destroyed or having 2 WATER in hand). Overall, I believe it makes the deck a lot more consistent but Controller is a problem. It's not a problem that it is useless, because you can easily use it, but that it means that you can only use Undine once. This constricts your plays a lot and is about the only thing I think of whenever I open it because of Undine. That said, Undine is not like Rabbit, you want to be able to use it twice in order to win... idk, maybe I'm not stating my thoughts correctly again but Chuav is def overvaluing it. It is great but not the best card in the world, you can play without it although I would highly recommend it.



And I'll say it again, please don't mention Veiler in this thread as an opposition to other ideas because so far all of them are effected by Veiler as well... since they are fucking monster effects. (besides Megalo which everyone uses, should use if not a different version)
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#35
Alistar

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so basically:

-undine is actually terrible, and the arguments for running it are pretty embarrassing
-builds posted look kinda shoddy... but hey, this is dgz deck discussion after all!
-niggas is lost as fuck
-chuavechito should stick to final countdown
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#36
old noobictive magician

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glad there is finally a thread for this :DD Some input from my time with the deck :
1) Raioh basically hinders the deck too much because u can't use undine / abysspike and megalo doesn't get to search when he is summoned and if they have any sort of backrow that u can't get over with megalo or an attack squad you are in for a pretty bad beat
2) Undine is the way to go.It opens up a new world of options that it just isn't fair when it resolves (controller is bad but u can't complain since it can make gungnir with dragoons/pike). Also undine when played in the right time lets u drop moulinglacia(have 4 water monster discard dragoons search him) and since in my book discarding 2 cards is close enough to winning u dont want to waste your undines too early (except when going for game).
3) U need mst for the wu matchup since u dont want them to get +s from their factories and mst is another marksman (meaning it will clear the way for an otk with megalo + diva ).
4) Call lets u be a tad more aggressive (synchro with a diva play an if it gets negated call for marksman attack and special attack squad/dragoons) and also manages your grave for moulin.
5)Allure sucks dick big time! u have like 5 dark monsters (lets count undine as a pseudo dark monster since it searches controller). lets go even further and count the 2 pikes as dark monsters because they will let u search undine if the search or the summon is not interrupted.So with 2 real dark monsters and 5 pseudo darks you have no reason to play allure in a deck that has space issues already( u might as well be better off playing magic planter which again is also suboptimal)However, the card destruction idea sounds good and needs to be tested.
6)fiendish chain is a good way to get past raioh since u can use your search effects and is also good vs the current top decks.
7)This is like the only deck i like maxx c more than veiler (but that's just me :P )

also what im testing right now
http://i.imgur.com/jrv10.png
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#37
hi i'm dm

hi i'm dm

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so basically:

-undine is actually terrible, and the arguments for running it are pretty embarrassing
-builds posted look kinda shoddy... but hey, this is dgz deck discussion after all!
-niggas is lost as fuck
-chuavechito should stick to final countdown


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  • 0

#38
im'a beetle!!

im'a beetle!!

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If you plan on using the other psuedo darks to get it (which are more then 5) then play it since it is a large portion of your deck. On the other hand you could choose not to play it since, well, you don't need to. It is unneeded and the argument's you give have a weight so why not? Its up to the person, really. Theory-oh says it works while physical ratio's says it doesn't. :|
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#39
old noobictive magician

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also,keep in mind that the ocg meta is a slower one and they build their decks to counter whatever is popular here ( aka mermail mirror match/gadget/ chaos dragons and bad dw builds etc ). This and the absence of thunder king allow them to play cards like allure ( which is not needed) and duality. In our meta when u stare down a shock master or a thunder king u dont want cards like allure ( in this deck u have to take actions in order to activate it so it does not help u in a direct way), you need cards that are instant answers like compulsory or fiendish chain. But i guess in the end you can call it player preference.
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#40
yoyoba

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player preference

please stop :(
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