Jump to content

Welcome to DuelistGroundz
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Icarus Attack


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1
Patrick Hoban

Patrick Hoban

    The Forbidden One

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9888 posts
Player A has Jain on the field and plays Brain Control targetting Player B's Gale.
Player B wants to chain Icarus attack tributing Gale and targetting Brain and Jain. Player B cannot because when they play Icarus attack and tribute Gale Brain fizzles and goes to the grave. Icarus only has 1 target, Jain, not the required 2. Is this correct?
  • 0

#2
The Random!

The Random!

    The Forbidden One

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7905 posts
I hate this ruiling but yeah player b can chain icarus attack, targeting player a brain and jain.

When spell cards are activated it is considered to be destroyed.

However... If Icarus Attack is activated in a chain to a Brain Control, the understood mechanic is thrown away when we say that it can target the opposing Brain Control. If you justify this by saying that it's different because Icarus Attack "destroys", then not only should my Man-Eater Bug be able to target itself when attacked, but a Mystical Space Typhoon should be able to target itselfs.

Ummm I can't remember the rest but yeah it can.
  • 0

#3
IAmTheGreat

IAmTheGreat

    Ground Duelist

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4150 posts
Beaten
  • 0

#4
Kahlil

Kahlil

    The Forbidden One

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8157 posts
they cant target brain rofl
  • 0

#5
Pharaoh Atem

Pharaoh Atem

    The Ruler of Benevolence - Your Translator

  • ~+-Superior of the In-Between-+~
  • 20460 posts
QUOTE (Raiden 170 @ Mar 29 2009, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hate this ruiling but yeah player b can chain icarus attack, targeting player a brain and jain.

When spell cards are activated it is considered to be destroyed.

However... If Icarus Attack is activated in a chain to a Brain Control, the understood mechanic is thrown away when we say that it can target the opposing Brain Control. If you justify this by saying that it's different because Icarus Attack "destroys", then not only should my Man-Eater Bug be able to target itself when attacked, but a Mystical Space Typhoon should be able to target itselfs.

Ummm I can't remember the rest but yeah it can.


Incorrect - When non-remaining STs are activated, they are considered as "going to be destroyed", not as "destroyed".

This is why you can still Tribute them as payment for the activation of a Spell Speed 2 or higher card/effect, and it's why a Spell Speed 2 or higher card/effect can destroy them before their Chain Blocks resolve.

This is why Heavy Storm doesn't destroy itself, as well - the whole "going to be destroyed" thing becomes "in process of being destroyed" the moment that Storm begins to resolve.

This is why Icarus can target and destroy the Brain Control before its Chain Block resolves, and it is why that Brain Control could not be returned to the hand or Deck unless its activation were negated; cards that are either "going to be destroyed" (such as activated non-remaining STs), or cards that are "in the process of being destroyed, but haven't finished the process and haven't been sent to their destinations" (such as the status of monsters right after damage calculation but before the substep where monsters are sent to the Graveyard) cannot be returned to the hand or Deck, or be affected by certain other things (such as Flip Effects).

As for your Man-Eater Bug argument, MEB can target itself when it isn't "going to be destroyed" or "in the process of being destroyed".

MST cannot target itself because it destroys "1 target Spell or Trap Card on the field". Choosing the target of cards/effects that target... is part of activation- specifically, it's the part immediately after paying costs, and either just before or at the same time as the time where the card being activated is put onto the field, flipped face-up, or whatever else needs to be done to consider it activated. At the time where a target is to be chosen, MST is either entering or not yet on the field; targets are always present BEFORE the time where a target must be chosen.
  • 0

#6
Pharaoh Atem

Pharaoh Atem

    The Ruler of Benevolence - Your Translator

  • ~+-Superior of the In-Between-+~
  • 20460 posts
QUOTE (WhiteBoy87 @ Mar 29 2009, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They cannot chain Icarus Attack since Brain Control cannot be targeted.


Wrong

QUOTE (Draven @ Mar 29 2009, 02:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
they cant target brain rofl


Wrong
  • 0

#7
Abercrombie and Kris

Abercrombie and Kris

    Dans` the Love Game

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3628 posts
icarus attack can target a resolving spell/trap card except itself
  • 0

#8
Aether

Aether

    hm?

  • »Retired Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1672 posts
There was more asked here.
- Does Brain Control immediately go to the graveyard if its target disappears from the field?
- If so, would an Icarus Attack targeting that very Brain Control and one other card fizzle? (Does it just need 2 targets at activation, or the whole way through?)
  • 0

#9
Abercrombie and Kris

Abercrombie and Kris

    Dans` the Love Game

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3628 posts
targeting occurs upon activation for both cards. i don't know if icarus fizzles if one of the targeting cards is activated on the chain.
  • 0

#10
Pharaoh Atem

Pharaoh Atem

    The Ruler of Benevolence - Your Translator

  • ~+-Superior of the In-Between-+~
  • 20460 posts
Cards in a resolving Chain stay on-field until either the whole Chain is resolved, unless either something else on that chain or some action pertaining to that Chain's construction and resolution removes that card first.

Icarus will always be able to destroy its ST targets, bar those targets being killed off by something else first - at which point it resolves as best it can.
  • 0

#11
Abercrombie and Kris

Abercrombie and Kris

    Dans` the Love Game

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3628 posts
i found out today that icarus targets upon resolution. SO, player A has a f/d gale and a f/d icarus. player B has a f/d roar and mirror force and a set jujitsu. A activates icarus tributing gale, if B wants to activate roar does B have to activate roar before A targets?
  • 0

#12
Aether

Aether

    hm?

  • »Retired Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1672 posts
QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i found out today that icarus targets upon resolution.


If this is true...

QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SO, player A has a f/d gale and a f/d icarus. player B has a f/d roar and mirror force and a set jujitsu. A activates icarus tributing gale, if B wants to activate roar does B have to activate roar before A targets?


Then the answer to this is yes.

Although I've never heard about Icarus targeting upon resolution. That would make it even better.
  • 0

#13
pp2

pp2

    Plain Old Duelist

  • BANHAMMERED
  • PipPip
  • 40 posts
How come you can Icarus Brain but you can't PWWB Brain? Senseless ruling.
  • 0

#14
John Danker

John Danker

    Underworld Duelist

  • »Retired Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1369 posts
QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 01:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i found out today that icarus targets upon resolution. SO, player A has a f/d gale and a f/d icarus. player B has a f/d roar and mirror force and a set jujitsu. A activates icarus tributing gale, if B wants to activate roar does B have to activate roar before A targets?


I don't blame you for thinking the 2 cards are selected at resolution, the card text on Icarus Attack is terribly misleading...

Icarus Attack

Text:
Tribute 1 Winged Beast-Type monster. Destroy 2 cards on the field.

Normally when there is a period, it seperates activation from effects that occur at resolution, however, this doesn't appear to be the case with Icarus Attack. No card in the game that chooses the cards at resolution targets.

The rulings for Icarus Attack state:

“Icarus Attack” targets 2 cards. Even if 1 of the target cards is a Spell or Trap and it is activated in a chain, both cards will still be destroyed.

The ruling is evidence that Icarus Attack targets, the fact that spell or trap cards that have been targeted can be chained is evidence as well that the effect targets and as part of activation.




  • 0

#15
John Danker

John Danker

    Underworld Duelist

  • »Retired Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1369 posts
QUOTE (pp2 @ May 4 2009, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How come you can Icarus Brain but you can't PWWB Brain? Senseless ruling.


As Pharaoh Atem has stated, once a non continuous spell or trap card has been activated it is "going to be destroyed" or as Mr. Tewart often phrased it is "Marked for destruction" Game mechanics mandate that such cards that are "Marked for destruction" or monster cards that are destroyed in battle but await a later sub-step to be sent to the graveyard cannot be returned to a player's hand.

I'm seeing a lot of people in many fan forums that are using the term "ruling" when the controling factor is a game mechanic. Players would be wise and benefit from studying game mechanics rather than individual card rulings. 95% of the time "rulings" are made based on standard game mechanics that players and / or judges have had difficulty applying.

  • 0

#16
chuavechito

chuavechito

    FUCK THIS SHIT!

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7631 posts
They can chain it. They can target Brain. They cant target Icarous (itself).
  • 0

#17
Pharaoh Atem

Pharaoh Atem

    The Ruler of Benevolence - Your Translator

  • ~+-Superior of the In-Between-+~
  • 20460 posts
QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i found out today that icarus targets upon resolution.


No such thing in all of YGO: it directly contradicts how the entire targeting game mechanic works

things that target always start to target before their effects' resolution

QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SO, player A has a f/d gale and a f/d icarus. player B has a f/d roar and mirror force and a set jujitsu. A activates icarus tributing gale, if B wants to activate roar does B have to activate roar before A targets?


Icarus, like all targeting STs and monster effects, starts targeting its target as a part of activation procedure. Essentially, the card's activation condition reads as "Tribute 1 Winged-Beast-Type monster", but it should read as "Activate by Tributing 1 Winged-Beast-Type monster and selecting 2 target cards on the field."

Roar will be activated after it is selected as a target.
  • 0

#18
Pharaoh Atem

Pharaoh Atem

    The Ruler of Benevolence - Your Translator

  • ~+-Superior of the In-Between-+~
  • 20460 posts
QUOTE (pp2 @ May 4 2009, 04:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How come you can Icarus Brain but you can't PWWB Brain? Senseless ruling.


Same reason Trunade doesn't bounce itself back to your hand
  • 0

#19
Kai

Kai

    Enjoying the show.

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2042 posts
Yup, brain is a legal target for icarus attack. It is a card, on the field, able to be destroyed.

Cards that lose their target are not immediately sent to the graveyard. They are still sent to the graveyard upon resolution of the chain, along with everything else.

Icarus cannot target itself for a kinda awkward reason,

When you flip a m/t face up, pretend that you actually remove the m/t from the field when paying costs and targeting, and everything else on activation that might be possible in the future. Since the card is not on the field, you cannot target it.

This is kinda how you explain playing solemn judgment on a flip summoned sangan as well. Pretend when you flip summon it, you remove it from the field then place it in face up attack position after summon has resolved. If solemn Judgment negates that summoning it was not on the field when destroyed and therefor doesn't get its effect.

Cards that bounce cards back to the hand, or on top of the deck, or anything like that cannot be activated on cards flagged for destruction. This is a game mechanic on itself..being a bsaic rule it doesn't really have reasoning except...how broken would giant trunade be lol? It would return itself.
  • 0

#20
Hollywood

Hollywood

    Fucking Sex

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2671 posts
Lots of redundancy in this thread. I really hope this question doesn't come up again for a long time (but I'm sure it will shortly with the increased number of idiots using Icarus now).
  • 0

#21
Abercrombie and Kris

Abercrombie and Kris

    Dans` the Love Game

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3628 posts
QUOTE (Pharaoh Atem @ May 4 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i found out today that icarus targets upon resolution.


No such thing in all of YGO: it directly contradicts how the entire targeting game mechanic works

things that target always start to target before their effects' resolution

QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SO, player A has a f/d gale and a f/d icarus. player B has a f/d roar and mirror force and a set jujitsu. A activates icarus tributing gale, if B wants to activate roar does B have to activate roar before A targets?


Icarus, like all targeting STs and monster effects, starts targeting its target as a part of activation procedure. Essentially, the card's activation condition reads as "Tribute 1 Winged-Beast-Type monster", but it should read as "Activate by Tributing 1 Winged-Beast-Type monster and selecting 2 target cards on the field."

Roar will be activated after it is selected as a target.


right...so i guess what i was told is that icarus is a non-targeting effect much like smashing ground and tries to resolve itself as much as possible. <- this is wrong?

so according to Atem i guess icarus targets.

edit: nvm, just checked netrep, it specifically says it targets.

to further complicate, if one of the targeted cards are chained upon targeting/activation (therefore being sent to the graveyard prior to icarus' resolution) does icarus just fizzle?
  • 0

#22
Hollywood

Hollywood

    Fucking Sex

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2671 posts
QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Pharaoh Atem @ May 4 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i found out today that icarus targets upon resolution.


No such thing in all of YGO: it directly contradicts how the entire targeting game mechanic works

things that target always start to target before their effects' resolution

QUOTE (kriswithak @ May 4 2009, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SO, player A has a f/d gale and a f/d icarus. player B has a f/d roar and mirror force and a set jujitsu. A activates icarus tributing gale, if B wants to activate roar does B have to activate roar before A targets?


Icarus, like all targeting STs and monster effects, starts targeting its target as a part of activation procedure. Essentially, the card's activation condition reads as "Tribute 1 Winged-Beast-Type monster", but it should read as "Activate by Tributing 1 Winged-Beast-Type monster and selecting 2 target cards on the field."

Roar will be activated after it is selected as a target.


right...so i guess what i was told is that icarus is a non-targeting effect much like smashing ground and tries to resolve itself as much as possible. <- this is wrong?

so according to Atem i guess icarus targets.

edit: nvm, just checked netrep, it specifically says it targets.

to further complicate, if one of the targeted cards are chained upon targeting/activation (therefore being sent to the graveyard prior to icarus' resolution) does icarus just fizzle?

Maybe you should re-read this thread.

  • 0

#23
Abercrombie and Kris

Abercrombie and Kris

    Dans` the Love Game

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3628 posts
did you read the part where it says "edit:"
  • 0

#24
Aether

Aether

    hm?

  • »Retired Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1672 posts
QUOTE (Pharaoh Atem @ May 4 2009, 09:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No such thing in all of YGO: it directly contradicts how the entire targeting game mechanic works

things that target always start to target before their effects' resolution

I was thinking of Stratos' effect to destroy a spell/trap when I made my response. I'm guessing the terminology of "targets at resolution" is the wrong way to describe what happens with him then? Does it have a term?

For those who don't know, after you choose to use the "pop" effect of Stratos, your opponent has to decide whether or not to chain anything before you pick a card for destruction.

QUOTE (John Danker @ May 4 2009, 06:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm seeing a lot of people in many fan forums that are using the term "ruling" when the controling factor is a game mechanic. Players would be wise and benefit from studying game mechanics rather than individual card rulings. 95% of the time "rulings" are made based on standard game mechanics that players and / or judges have had difficulty applying.

I'd love to know a good place to learn about game mechanics. As it is, I'm not even sure where to go when I have questions about something. I'm basically just learning things on a case-by-case basis or relating situations to similar ones I already know, which doesn't seem the most efficient or reliable.
  • 0

#25
Kai

Kai

    Enjoying the show.

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2042 posts
After the edit part you said "does it fizzle if one of the cards is chained." In multiple posts people have said it does not fizzle but resolves to the best of its ability (I.E. destroys the leftover card)

This is why he posted "Maybe you should re-read this thread"

  • 0

#26
Hollywood

Hollywood

    Fucking Sex

  • Duelist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2671 posts
QUOTE (xKenx @ May 4 2009, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
After the edit part you said "does it fizzle if one of the cards is chained." In multiple posts people have said it does not fizzle but resolves to the best of its ability (I.E. destroys the leftover card)

This is why he posted "Maybe you should re-read this thread"

Correct. wink.gif
  • 0

#27
John Danker

John Danker

    Underworld Duelist

  • »Retired Staff
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1369 posts
QUOTE (Aether @ May 4 2009, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd love to know a good place to learn about game mechanics. As it is, I'm not even sure where to go when I have questions about something. I'm basically just learning things on a case-by-case basis or relating situations to similar ones I already know, which doesn't seem the most efficient or reliable.


I'm always more than happy to answer questions about game mechanics. Ask in a polite way and I'll certainly always oblige. While I don't always know the answer to everyone's question (I don't know of anyone who always knows all in this game) I'll do my best to help you out.

The term for cards who's effects happen at resolution is to "select" or "choose" I know this whole issue sounds a bit nit picky but the term "target" in the game of Yugioh holds special significance due to some card effects which are immune to or negate effects that target.

  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users