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Victor rants about Heroes and bashes Veiler/Chain

feel free to correct him

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366 replies to this topic

#41
Tygo

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Seriously though... how long until Victor makes a blog?
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#42
Welche

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Wow that's really cool and I never thought of it. Might try the deck out.
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#43
white-bordered swamp

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Seriously though... how long until Victor makes a blog?

He can just use DGz's blog system! You know, that awesome feature we have here that's totally caught on by now.
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#44
Axle

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while your theory is very sound as always, i don't think the deck is particularly groundbreaking mainly because blade armor ninja is an unbelievably weak card. you are basically giving up the ability to make a gamewinning xyz in the form of laggia or dolkka (since if you're running rabbit and 6 normals, you very well could be running the dino rabbit deck that can crank these out) so you can have a double attacker with worse stats. i literally cannot think of a less threatening thing you can produce with a rank 4 xyz.


Something tells me you called Dark Strike Fighter an unbelievably weak card when it came out and thought it was giving up a gamewinning synchro in the form of black rose dragon or stardust dragon. You're basically saying the same thing. Of course Armor is weaker than DSF due to safer damage/power in numbers but that's not the point I'm making.. In reality they're different cards in the extra deck for different situations. Obviously one ends games instantly when there is an opening, while the other grinds out the slower games. Running Sparkman makes rabbit a toolbox for both situations similar to how Black Salvo/Monk(+rabbit) was. Also as Carbon said heroes don't care if they draw the normals because shining/gate don't care if it's alius or sparkman you are using, they just care if the card is a light hero.

leave the arguing to carbon, he is better at it

the fact that you are comparing this card to dark strike is repulsive

the only "toolbox option" sparkman adds to rabbit is armor ninja, which is less of a toolbox and more of a strictly inferior piece of crap. dark strike was not a card for a specific situation, it was a format defining fucking game winning card.


Funny you called my argument bad because I was purposely using the exact same words you used to make a point.
This will be my last post unless you learn how to back up your points in your posts.

You really must be missing something if you think a card that does 4400 damage by itself is bad. I don't think any legal card in the game can do that from a single card investment without some sort of preset conditions from other cards. At the end of the day you have to get your opponents lifepoints to 0 in ygo. The DSF argument was just because they both do the same thing. They end the game ignoring advantage. Their only purpose is to end the game.
Can you do math? Blade Armor has 2200 attack. 2200 + 2200 = 4400

For this deck:
4400 + 3600 Shining = 8000 (2 shining with 4 heros banished is only 7600)
4400 + On field monster + any fusion monster = >8000
Their warning burned + 4400 + any monster(even sparkman) =>8000
The list goes on. Laggia can't do any of this. It only does 2400 damage. That's why he's in the deck.
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#45
Sharpman

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edit: upon review axel just said what i did better, read his post
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#46
tolarian academy

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Laggia can't do any of this. It only does 2400 damage.

:|

the main problem with just listing a bunch of ways to make 8000 atk with the deck is that your opponent is allowed to set cards and have monsters.

dark strike did damage in, at the time, a near-unpreventable way. blade armor ninja attacks. he may attack for potentially a lot, but he still just attacks. those are not the same, they are not comparable, and one of those cards being good does not make the other good. the real world isn't magical christmas land where your opponent runs 40 spells that aren't book, econ, and other attack-stopping spells. can you do math? count how many monsters decks run now, and how many disruptive traps/spells they run.

in every situation other than "his field is clear and/or i might be able to push for damage," laggia/dolkka/utopia are the superior choice to armor ninja. this is a lot like my argument against gigamantis (which was also met with ire from the bandwagon majority!) where i basically said that it's dumb to devote deckspace to OTKing in a deck that shouldn't necessarily build its game around otking. the option is certainly nice, but you have to weigh the pros with the cons, the main con here being that you're mashing two decks together that both suffer from bad-hand-itis and pretending that isn't a problem.

this deck is not good because it can make 8000 damage. if it were good (which I'm still not sold on but i am warming up to the idea as I test it more) it would be because it makes big monsters that either float or protect themselves for little to no investment.

also as for "I'm not going to respond until you learn to back up your points" or w/e, all of my points (at least in the post you quoted) are sufficiently backed up please shut the fuck up.
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#47
raika

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Laggia can't do any of this. It only does 2400 damage.

:|

the main problem with just listing a bunch of ways to make 8000 atk with the deck is that your opponent is allowed to set cards and have monsters.


While of course outs can exist, saying that is kind of pointless theory-oh. It's no more legitimate than saying "[x] play is bad because your opponent could have [insert out here]. MST exists, storm exists, Decree exists if you're into that, Laggia protects your pushes, and you can sometimes sit comfortably on beating down with Aliuses/Stratos while you wait to explode, and with the amount of search power you have, it's all up to you when you feel it's best to make the push.

dark strike did damage in, at the time, a near-unpreventable way. blade armor ninja attacks. he may attack for potentially a lot, but he still just attacks. those are not the same, they are not comparable, and one of those cards being good does not make the other good. the real world isn't magical christmas land where your opponent runs 40 spells that aren't book, econ, and other attack-stopping spells. can you do math? count how many monsters decks run now, and how many disruptive traps/spells they run.


They are not the same, but they are comparable; both are OTK enablers, and even if defensive cards do exist, 4400 damage for the investment of a single Rabbit drop isn't exactly something to sneeze at.

in every situation other than "his field is clear and/or i might be able to push for damage," laggia/dolkka/utopia are the superior choice to armor ninja. this is a lot like my argument against gigamantis (which was also met with ire from the bandwagon majority!) where i basically said that it's dumb to devote deckspace to OTKing in a deck that shouldn't necessarily build its game around otking. the option is certainly nice, but you have to weigh the pros with the cons, the main con here being that you're mashing two decks together that both suffer from bad-hand-itis and pretending that isn't a problem.


Laggia/Dolkka/Utopia do different things than Armor Ninja, but dealing such an immense amount of damage is a use he has. You can't simply say that one is better when they have different uses for different situations; and you wouldn't want to run the 6 dinos over 3 Kaba/3 Sparkman because of Sparkman's status as a LIGHT E-Hero.

As far as Giga-mantis, it's a one-card investment that's searchable, and enables an OTK when the deck might be in a position where it needs to close the duel that turn.

On the issue of bad hands, you're right, I won't dispute that; they definitely happen, but you weigh the risk when you play the deck, and see if the benefit outweighs said risk.
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#48
Carbon

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Armored Ninja isn't even that big of a deal to the deck.
Stop arguing about it.
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#49
dota-pro

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This deck has tested amazing for me. Just the sheer versatility when your oponent invests so much to kill your laggia/leviair plays and you simply transition into miracle fusions.

I know this sounds odd because of the large amount of RFG going on, but i think a pot of avarice would serve this deck well. I have dead rabbits alot of the time, with a fat graveyard with maybe only 2-4 monsters rfg'd in reality. The hand trap monsters fill up the graveyard fairly quickly as well. Thoughts? Or at least a remedy to mid game dead rabbits besides gaia?
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#50
Carbon

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I already assumed Pot of Avarice was a staple in here.
It lets you reuse your spent Zeros/Shinings that aren't removed and the grave still fills up. I always want to see Avarice
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#51
dota-pro

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The core monster list Victor posted is great, and theres almost never a moment where you dont have some kind of out, but I've just been noticing with more and more playtesting that the deck has a tendency to work against itself. 3 rabbits seems to be too much at times because you cant ever make more than one of the Dyno XYZ (unless after a PoA or reborn etc etc). And in a similar vein, the rabbits conflict with stratos and rota because usually you dont want to search the sparkmen.

At the same time, this monster lineup contributes quite alot to this deck's ability to come out of some pretty bad situation because of the fusion shenanigans you can pull after your opponent exhausts resources on the Exceeds.

I guess what Im trying to get at is how this deck can be better streamlined so that the explosiveness and consistency levels can even out a little more.
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#52
Carbon

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That seems like a terrible idea.
You play 3 Rabbits because you want to draw into them early. You say all you can do with the double Sparkman is create Armored Ninja however that's incorrect.
You can also create Utopia but most generally I use the double Sparkman to make two fusions in the same turn which is huge.
You can just toss dead Rabbits to make Gaia.

Edit:
So don't search Sparkman. What's the problem.
You should be running cards like Voltic or Ice Edge anyway. Mainly Ice Edge.
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#53
victor

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EDIT: Carbon hit it right on the dot, the whole point of Rescue Rabbit sometimes is 1 card Shining under Fusion Gate.

It's also worth noting that you can play PoA, Tour Bus, and Transmigration Prophecy if you aren't already.

Let's suppose you made an Evolzar already. 2 Kabazauls are in grave. With Guide + Bus into Leviair, you can detach Tour Bus for its effect, shuffle in a Kabazuls, and retrieve Rescue Rabbit that was RFGed. Now you have 2 Kabazuls in the deck, perfect for another Evolzar.

And last but not least, you can RFG both Kabazauls for Miracle Fusion and bring them back via RFTDD into Evolzar.
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#54
dota-pro

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Most definitely I agree on the usefullness of double sparkman. I go into Roach or Utopia alot more than Ninja. But more times than not, I'll open rabbit, go laggia. Next turn with a TGU in hand, I'd like to be able to go leviair into rabbit and go for another dyno XYZ, but you simply cant do that with this deck.

I just feel like TGU loses a bit of power because of the fact that rabbit can only come through twice. And the second time wont ever be as good as the first more often than not. I mean lets face it, unless they have an immediate huge threat already on the field, id almost always want to make Laggia over Utopia.

Also theres the issue of the card conflicts. Namely Rota/Stratos and Rabbit
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#55
dota-pro

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EDIT: Carbon hit it right on the dot.

It's also worth noting that you can play PoA, Tour Bus, and Transmigration Prophecy if you aren't already.

Let's suppose you made an Evolzar already. 2 Kabazauls are in grave. With Guide + Bus into Leviair, you can detach Tour Bus for its effect, shuffle in a Kabazuls, and retrieve Rescue Rabbit that was RFGed. Now you have 2 Kabazuls in the deck, perfect for another Evolzar.

And last but not least, you can RFG both Kabazauls for Miracle Fusion and bring them back via RFTDD into Evolzar.



TBU... pretty much the solution I was looking for. Keep forgetting about the new shit.
Greatly appreciated
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#56
Carbon

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3 Tour Guide From the Underworld
3 Rescue Rabbit
3 Elemental Hero Sparkman
3 Kabazauls
3 Max "C"
3 Effect Veiler
1 Elemental Hero Stratos
1 Sangan
1 Elemental Hero Ice Edge
1 Tour Bus From the Underworld

3 Fusion Gate
3 Miracle Fusion
2 Terraforming
2 E - Emergency Call
1 Reinforcement of the Army
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole
1 Monster Reborn
1 Pot of Avarice

2 Chain Material
1 Return From the Different Dimension
1 Trap Dustshoot

Side:
2 Super Polymerization
1 Elemental Hero Nova Master
12 other cards

Extra: 15
3 Elemental Hero the Shining
3 Elemental Hero Absolute Zero
2 Elemental Hero Gaia
1 Evolzar Laggia
1 Evolzar Dolkka
1 Number 39: Utopia
1 Leviair the Sea Dragon
1 Blade Armor Ninja
1 Wind-Up Zenmaines
1 Number 17: Leviathan Dragon

This is what I've been using after a lot of testing various cards.
There's really nothing I would change in the main board besides readding in Voltic. Sometimes I like it other times I don't.
As for the extra I don't run Tornado because Stratos is the only Wind and 99% of the time even when I ran Tornado I used Stratos for Shining/Zero.
You also must play triple Max/Veiler. Not only does it help against your meta matchups but they also create Shining/Gaia on demand.

Everything else has been amazingly solid.
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#57
victor

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I agree, triple Veiler is definitely a must, because Trishula on The Shining is essentially game.

DPrison and BTH are also bad news, and as you aren't playing Safe Zone or MST, those could be problematic.

Torrential Tribute is personal preference, but with the Shining and Fusion Gate up, it's a field wipe + open field for 3200+ ATK, not to mention potentially using Stratos again.

The more cards that give you an open field, the better, you can drop 4400 ATK out of the blue with Rabbit.

------------------------

I think Elemental Hero Prisma and Cyber Dragon are really neat sidedeck options, as a searchable out to Zenmaines (you can search Prisma in so many different ways, name it Cyber Dragon and go into Chimeratech, often for 2000 LP).
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#58
Carbon

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Prisma also sets up instant Miracle Fusion.
I have a side built I just didnt feel the need to post it up.

I'm not too worried about Dimensional Prison as most decks play anywhere from 0-1 on average and rarely 2.
I found Typhoon to be unneeded. Even if they had Warning/Mirror/Torrential or some sort of trap all of my monsters were floaters and would clear their field/give me back my materials to just remake the fusion. Torrential Tribute is a solid card. It goes in/out of the deck between the second Chain Material.
I'm not sold on double Material but at the same time I am. The card just generates so much advantage it's usually gg after the turn is over.
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#59
dota-pro

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3 Sparkman
3 Kabazauls
3 TGU
3 Rabbit
3 Veiler
2 Maxx
1 Sangan
1 Stratos

3 Fusion Gate
3 Miracle
2 MST
1 Heavy
1 PoA
1 RotA
1 Smashing Ground
1 Dark Hole
1 Book of Moon

2 D Prison
2 Warning
1 Solemn Judgment
1 Dustshoot
1 Torrential

3 The Shining
2 ABZero
2 Laggia
1 Gaia
1 Ninja
1 Dolkka
1 Leviathan
1 Leviair
1 Zenmaines
1 Roach
1 Utopia

Build I got to test IRL most of the day. Gonna def add the Tour Bus. I liked Carbon's ideas with the Prismas, but Im kinda wary of the lack of S/T removal. When I dont have an answer to bottomless/mirror force + boss monster/warning + boss monster, or having to waste a leggia negate both bother me. Added in smashing because I hate reaper as well as random huge shit that pops up sometimes.
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#60
Carbon

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Smashing is idiotic.
You have Zeros to clear anything lol.

Why don't you play Ice Edge?
I simply don't understand. No wonder you hate Sparkman/Rabbit. You need another Hero to search off Rota/Stratos and Ice Edge is the perfect solution.
It adds a searchable Zero target not having to rely on Kabazauls. Prison also makes no sense. What are you trying to protect?
Shining doesn't need protecting and protecting Zero is dumb. Chain Material is a +5, play it.
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#61
Carbon

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You're not playing Emergency Call.....
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#62
ZXtheD

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This deck is too fun. I even tried a build of my own using rainbow neos. It's fun pumping out 3200+ beaters and still have great advantage. It's a shame that I can only call neos for prisma though.
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#63
InfusionsCap

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You are easily one of the best DGZers. Great read, cool concept.

I share the sentiment. This says it all.
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#64
Sharpman

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How do you guys side deck with this? I don't ever know what to take out, I feel like taking away from the hero engine is a bad idea and the same with the Rabbit engine.
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#65
victor

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How do you guys side deck with this? I don't ever know what to take out, I feel like taking away from the hero engine is a bad idea and the same with the Rabbit engine.


I'd probably go for a LIGHT Beat, with Gozen Matches for Windups.

Definitely take out Fusion Gate stuff, and side in Alius+Spark, Prisma+Cydra for Zenmaines (Windups), Super Polymerization, and Mind Control.

Mind Control is a great out to first turn Raioh, when going second.

Against this deck, I'd be expecting the opponent to side in anti-meta stuff and S/T removal for Gate, so chainable Spark works well against all that.
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#66
victor

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I'm pretty surprised that this deck is actually stronger under the new March banlist.

Without Trap Dustshoot or Trishula RFGing The Shining to ruin your day, and with 2 Torrential Tribute, things are looking up.

TT on The Shining when you have Fusion Gate on field or in hand, is incredible. TT creates an open field with the opportunity to use Stratos again, and put 3200+ ATK on the board.

This deck can still play multiple hand traps, has access to 1 card Dolkka/Laggia, good topdecks (Miracle Fusion, Tour Guide, Rabbit), big monsters to trouble Rabbit.dek, strong sidedecking options (Gozen Match, Prisma into Cydra vs Zenmaines Zenmaighty, etc.), etc.
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#67
brotacular7

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how people play this deck without bus is beyond me. shit is too key in here
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#68
GK's Spy

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I like how you put a lot of thought in this and I imagine the Deck is extremely fun to play. Thanks for sharing Victor. =)
I'm definitely looking into this more come Nationals season. At first glance I love the amount of power cards and topdecking potential.
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#69
Slowpoke

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I have no idea how I should go about with the side deck. Right now I'm siding into aliuses and sparks and a lot of antimeta monsters and super polys. i dont want to side into warnings and fiendish chains cause they will be siding into spell/trap destruction anyway
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#70
Angeles

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If this is our list in March I have a feeling I'm gonna be playing it for long beach. Seems like it can be really really good.
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#71
Kuranosuke

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Lol, and I used to pride myself on HERO creations. You are a don, this is amazing.
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#72
Egnever

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I've tried this deck out a few times and it's really pretty amazing. Floating huge attack shinings is just amazing.
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#73
Ultrafishe

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3 Tour Guide From the Underworld
3 Rescue Rabbit
3 Elemental Hero Sparkman
3 Kabazauls
3 Max "C"
3 Effect Veiler
1 Elemental Hero Stratos
1 Sangan
1 Elemental Hero Ice Edge
1 Tour Bus From the Underworld

3 Fusion Gate
3 Miracle Fusion
2 Terraforming
2 E - Emergency Call
1 Reinforcement of the Army
1 Heavy Storm
1 Dark Hole
1 Monster Reborn
1 Pot of Avarice

2 Chain Material
1 Return From the Different Dimension
1 Trap Dustshoot

Side:
2 Super Polymerization
1 Elemental Hero Nova Master
12 other cards

Extra: 15
3 Elemental Hero the Shining
3 Elemental Hero Absolute Zero
2 Elemental Hero Gaia
1 Evolzar Laggia
1 Evolzar Dolkka
1 Number 39: Utopia
1 Leviair the Sea Dragon
1 Blade Armor Ninja
1 Wind-Up Zenmaines
1 Number 17: Leviathan Dragon

This is what I've been using after a lot of testing various cards.
There's really nothing I would change in the main board besides readding in Voltic. Sometimes I like it other times I don't.
As for the extra I don't run Tornado because Stratos is the only Wind and 99% of the time even when I ran Tornado I used Stratos for Shining/Zero.
You also must play triple Max/Veiler. Not only does it help against your meta matchups but they also create Shining/Gaia on demand.

Everything else has been amazingly solid.



I'm definitely a fan of the build, mainly the monster line-up. In this new format (which wouldn't take you must adjusting), 3 of each hand traps are needed if you're going to play a build like this.

My only concern is that having 3 Miracle Fusions, 3 Fusion Gates and 2 Chain Material, along with an Avarice could end up creating lack of fusion material (namely in the graveyard) and make some of these dead topdecks, plus, Chain Material seems a little slow (I love the concept though and admittedly, haven't tested it). Having any problems with this at all?
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#74
victor

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My only concern is that having 3 Miracle Fusions, 3 Fusion Gates and 2 Chain Material, along with an Avarice could end up creating lack of fusion material (namely in the graveyard) and make some of these dead topdecks, plus, Chain Material seems a little slow (I love the concept though and admittedly, haven't tested it). Having any problems with this at all?


I haven't really tested this, but there was a card made explicitly for this purpose, you know?

Posted Image


This card's selling point is that it can return Stratos to deck and make ECalls and ROTA under Fusion Gate plays live.

It is also worth noting that you can return Rescue Rabbit to deck for reuse, and bring out Gaia.

It's neat when you Rescue Rabbit for 2 Sparkman and Fuse. Then you can Parallel for Gaia, and return Rabbit and Sparkman to deck. With 2 Sparkman (the returned one and 3rd copy in deck), any Rescue Rabbit is live again.

Or Stratos + Rabbit for Gaia as well to get both back in deck...

The last line, which makes it balanced, makes it so you can't Miracle and Parallel on the same turn, unfortunately.

It'd probably one be a 1-of, I'm guessing.

And it is never ruled as far as I know, but it seems possible you can use your opponent's RFGed monsters and return them to their deck, no?
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#75
Ultrafishe

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My only concern is that having 3 Miracle Fusions, 3 Fusion Gates and 2 Chain Material, along with an Avarice could end up creating lack of fusion material (namely in the graveyard) and make some of these dead topdecks, plus, Chain Material seems a little slow (I love the concept though and admittedly, haven't tested it). Having any problems with this at all?


I haven't really tested this, but there was a card made explicitly for this purpose, you know?

Posted Image


This card's selling point is that it can return Stratos to deck and make ECalls and ROTA under Fusion Gate plays live.

It is also worth noting that you can return Rescue Rabbit to deck for reuse, and bring out Gaia.

It's neat when you Rescue Rabbit for 2 Sparkman and Fuse. Then you can Parallel for Gaia, and return Rabbit and Sparkman to deck. With 2 Sparkman (the returned one and 3rd copy in deck), any Rescue Rabbit is live again.

Or Stratos + Rabbit for Gaia as well to get both back in deck...

The last line, which makes it balanced, makes it so you can't Miracle and Parallel on the same turn, unfortunately.

It'd probably one be a 1-of, I'm guessing.

And it is never ruled as far as I know, but it seems possible you can use your opponent's RFGed monsters and return them to their deck, no?



Wow, I forgot this card exists and you're right, it's absolutely perfect as a 1-of. I guess I know what I'm replacing dustshoot with now.
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#76
Sharpman

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I actually emailed Konami about this forever ago, and you can't use your opponent's banished monsters with Parrallel World Fusion.
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#77
victor

victor

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By the same logic as Sparkman, with Parallel World Fusion, you can return Kabazauls to deck, to make Rabbit -> Evolzars live again.

The ideal scenario would be:

1) Rescue Rabbit -> Kabazauls -> Evolzar
2) Miracle Fuse Kabazauls in grave for Zero
3) Parallel Fuse Kabazauls and Stratos for another Zero, returning both Stratos and Kabzauls, to deck making both ROTA/Ecall and Rescue Rabbit live
4) Rescue Rabbit into 2 Kabazauls (the returned one and 3rd copy in deck) for another Evolzar

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This card is really neat.

As an 1800 ATKer that floats for Rescue Rabbit and Stratos, plus a LIGHT for The Shining, etc. it's far too good in here.

Retrieving Stratos or Rabbit to hand is essentially a game-winning play.

Especially with TT at 2 now, and Inzektors destruction, and no Trish, it's more likely to get its effect off.

It's a solid stabilizer and helps to recoup from Windups. 1800 ATK runs over Carriers and it helps you rebuild.

Rabbit can go into Utopia Ray and put 4000 ATK on the board.
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#78
Pharaoh Atem

Pharaoh Atem

    The Ruler of Benevolence - Your Translator

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I actually emailed Konami about this forever ago, and you can't use your opponent's banished monsters with Parrallel World Fusion.


The exact rule is that a Fusion Summon is defined by the rulebook to ALWAYS use materials YOU control-on-the-field or own-off-the-field, UNLESS the card EXPLICITLY states otherwise.

Since Parallel's SS is considered a Fusion Summon, it thus surrenders the right to use the opponent's banished cards.
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#79
Egnever

Egnever

    aleph Ω

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I've been playing a 1-of Parallel for a while now in this build. It's been great. It's rarely ever dead, and it allows me to rabbit into a second Evolzar quite frequently.
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#80
Exiled

Exiled

    The Forbidden One

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so can we call this deck victor control?
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