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SEGOC question


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18 replies to this topic

#1
Relianah

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Okay so quick question for mandatory vs triggered first, If I pop my own trooper with hornet, does trooper go CL 1 since it's mandatory or does the inzektor because hornet sends as a cost and triggers first? Basically does triggering first take CL 1 or mandatory effects still > optional.

Thanks in advance
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#2
Lamp

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The 'First triggered, first on the chain' rule only applies to effects that have the same priority to be placed on the chain - for instance, turn player's mandatory effect, like in the sangan and Caius case.

Dragonfly is an optional effect and will always be placed on the chain after all mandatory effects that try to activate simultaneously.

To summarize, Mandatory still > optional. CL1 Trooper, CL2 Dragonfly.
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#3
Relianah

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Thanks :) kind of figured, but wanted to make sure
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#4
Mother Sun

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According John Danker and others, the Dragonfly is CL1. Same scenario where you use Hornet equipped to Dragonfly, and send Hornet to kill Zekcaliber, the Dragonfly is CL1, then you can arrange Dragonfly and Zekcaliber as you wish, despite Dragonfly being optional and Zektcaliber being mandatory. According to them, being mandatory means nothing, and that you use Triggered First, On the Chain First. Idgi though.
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#5
Unknown001

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According John Danker and others, the Dragonfly is CL1. Same scenario where you use Hornet equipped to Dragonfly, and send Hornet to kill Zekcaliber, the Dragonfly is CL1, then you can arrange Dragonfly and Zekcaliber as you wish, despite Dragonfly being optional and Zektcaliber being mandatory. According to them, being mandatory means nothing, and that you use Triggered First, On the Chain First. Idgi though.

No, he later retracted(? idk what word to use here) that statement after how we ruled it at YCS LB. Zektkaliber will be CL1.



Took the liberty in asking in the judge FB group for you guys: https://www.facebook...51396731505249/

John Danker:
Not in the TCG you don't default to SEGOC when triggers are met at different times in the middle of a resolving chain Alex. The below, of course, is only valid in the TCG, not in the OCG.
1. Inzektor Hornet’s effect is activated sending itself to the graveyard as a cost targeting Inzektor Sword – Zektkaliber, Inzektor Dragonfly’s effect triggers but does not activate at this time. (Waiting for the resolution of the effect of Inzektor Hornet before activating)
2. Inzektor Hornet’s effect resolves destroying Inzektor Sword – Zektkaliber. Both Inzektor Dragonfly’s effect and Inzektor Sword – Zektkaliber’s effect want to activate at this time but both will be placed after the first activation of Inzektor Dragonfly as it’s waiting for the current chain to end.
3. Inzektor Sword – Zektcaliber’s effect and the second activation of Inzektor Dragonfly’s effect triggered at the same time and may be placed in any order AFTER the first activation of Inzektor Dragonfly.


.....and that's the way it was ruled in the TCG, right up until the 100th in Long Beach <sigh> Now that's been tweaked for the time being too. We'll see how they decide (if ever) to rule such a scenario officially.


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#6
Mother Sun

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Ok, awesome. Thank god common sense eventually prevailed.

Edit: In NO WAY did I attempt to paint Mr. Danker as being incompetent. My original post was just to reflect the ruling that I last saw, and used names rather than ambiguity to demonstrate that it came from someone knowledgable and experienced enough to be respected by players here. Sorry if I painted you in this way John, it wasn't my intention.
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#7
John Danker

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and now it's being ruled.....let me see if I can describe this, take SEGOC in one hand, take trigger first in the other hand, mash them together and you've got the current version...

If multiple effects trigger at different points in a resolving chain:
1. Turn players mandatory effects go first on the new chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.
2. Non-turn player's mandatory effects go next on the chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.
3. Turn player's optional effects go next on the chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.
4. Non-turn player's optional effects go last on the chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.

Is that the official word? You got me, we haven't ever seen the mechanic of multiple effects triggering in the middle of a resolving chain explained officially, all I can do is pass on to you how it was instructed for us to rule it by R&D at Long Beach. Could that change? Sure, it's the best we've got right now though and how you'll be seeing it ruled at YCS events until we're instructed otherwise.
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#8
Relianah

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and now it's being ruled.....let me see if I can describe this, take SEGOC in one hand, take trigger first in the other hand, mash them together and you've got the current version...

If multiple effects trigger at different points in a resolving chain:
1. Turn players mandatory effects go first on the new chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.
2. Non-turn player's mandatory effects go next on the chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.
3. Turn player's optional effects go next on the chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.
4. Non-turn player's optional effects go last on the chain, if multiple, in the order they triggered.

Is that the official word? You got me, we haven't ever seen the mechanic of multiple effects triggering in the middle of a resolving chain explained officially, all I can do is pass on to you how it was instructed for us to rule it by R&D at Long Beach. Could that change? Sure, it's the best we've got right now though and how you'll be seeing it ruled at YCS events until we're instructed otherwise.

It makes sense tho, thanks for the response
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#9
Pharaoh Atem

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This is all far too confusing for me to swallow.

I had to spend a damn week learning how to make the old method make sense - and I only made it make sense by imagining what it would be like to have multiple SEGOC incidents in one Chain.

That old method classified SEGOC as a rule for all effects that want to activate at the same time AND were all triggered at the same time - meaning that if you had 6 effects, with 2 triggered at point A, 2 at point B, and 2 at point C, and they all want to activate at point C, then all of them triggered at point A would be handled SEGOC style, then point B, then point C.

Now I REALLY don't know what to do and REALLY don't know how to teach myself the new method.
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#10
John Danker

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I thought I explained it pretty well <grumble> is it the generation gap thing?
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#11
Relianah

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This is all far too confusing for me to swallow.

I had to spend a damn week learning how to make the old method make sense - and I only made it make sense by imagining what it would be like to have multiple SEGOC incidents in one Chain.

That old method classified SEGOC as a rule for all effects that want to activate at the same time AND were all triggered at the same time - meaning that if you had 6 effects, with 2 triggered at point A, 2 at point B, and 2 at point C, and they all want to activate at point C, then all of them triggered at point A would be handled SEGOC style, then point B, then point C.

Now I REALLY don't know what to do and REALLY don't know how to teach myself the new method.


From his post this is my understanding of it, using your example

Point A 2 cards trigger
Point B 2 cards trigger
Point C 2 cards trigger

So SEGOC will go check for turn player mandatorys first, no matter when they trigger, then opponent mandatory, again not carring when they triggered, then turn player non-mandatory in the order they triggered, then non turn player in order of the trigger.

So let's say
Point A is my non mandatory/his non mandatory
Point B is my mandatory and my non mandatory
Point C is his mandatory and his non mandatory

So the chain would look like this

CL 1 my mandatory point B effect
CL 2 His mandatory Point C effect
CL 3 My non mandatory Point A effect
CL 4 my non mandatory Point B effect
CL 5 his non mandatory Point A effect
CL 6 his non mandatory Point C effect

Here's hoping this isn't wrong and I just confused you even more rofl
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#12
Pharaoh Atem

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Nah


This is all far too confusing for me to swallow.

I had to spend a damn week learning how to make the old method make sense - and I only made it make sense by imagining what it would be like to have multiple SEGOC incidents in one Chain.

That old method classified SEGOC as a rule for all effects that want to activate at the same time AND were all triggered at the same time - meaning that if you had 6 effects, with 2 triggered at point A, 2 at point B, and 2 at point C, and they all want to activate at point C, then all of them triggered at point A would be handled SEGOC style, then point B, then point C.

Now I REALLY don't know what to do and REALLY don't know how to teach myself the new method.


From his post this is my understanding of it, using your example

Point A 2 cards trigger
Point B 2 cards trigger
Point C 2 cards trigger

So SEGOC will go check for turn player mandatorys first, no matter when they trigger, then opponent mandatory, again not carring when they triggered, then turn player non-mandatory in the order they triggered, then non turn player in order of the trigger.

So let's say
Point A is my non mandatory/his non mandatory
Point B is my mandatory and my non mandatory
Point C is his mandatory and his non mandatory

So the chain would look like this

CL 1 my mandatory point B effect
CL 2 His mandatory Point C effect
CL 3 My non mandatory Point A effect
CL 4 my non mandatory Point B effect
CL 5 his non mandatory Point A effect
CL 6 his non mandatory Point C effect

Here's hoping this isn't wrong and I just confused you even more rofl


Not quite

It would separate all of them by point

then apply SEGOC to each of those separated groups

So Point A's would all go onto the Chain before Point B's, and all of Point B's before Point C's.

Point A's effects would go onto the Chain in an order dictated by SEGOC, THEN Point B's would do the same, THEN C's.
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#13
Slayers' Stronghold

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Point A B and C on seperate chains? Or just going on chain by when they were triggered?
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#14
John Danker

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Personally I think it's being over complicated in this thread.....but I know everyone's brain doesn't sort in the same way <shrug>
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#15
Mother Sun

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Atem, try this:

Multiple trigger effects are triggered in a Chain:
1 -> Determine whether they miss the timing or not
2 -> Determine which are mandatory, and which are optional
3 -> Determine whose effects they are (Turn Player, non-Turn Player)
4 -> Place the Turn Player's mandatory effects on the Chain, in the order that they triggered
5 -> Place the non-Turn Player's mandatory effects on the Chain, in the order that they triggered
6 -> The Turn Player may place any and all optional effects onto the Chain, in the order that they triggered
7 -> The non-Turn Player may place any and all optional effects onto the Chain, in the order that they triggered
8 -> Resolve the Chain
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#16
Edgar

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This subtle ruling can really make for some strange-looking chains. As I've previously theorized, Merriam-Webster and Konami appear to have entirely different definitions of the word "simultaneous." Ugh. This new definition of how Trigger Effects chain is certainly a tad easier to apply, albeit less sensical, to me at least. It takes the entire notion of time out of it. Perhaps this is for the best. It does help to eliminate SEGOC questions, though. And by "SEGOC," I apparently now just mean "EGOC."
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#17
Honest

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Any official update on this?  I've been tributing Ghostrick Dullahan for Dark Dust Spirit to make Hands miss the timing, but I guess Dullahan should actually be Chain link 2 in this case?


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#18
ness00

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>Updating rulings in the TCG.

 

There are no new updates.

 

If you tribute Dullahan for Dark Dust Spirit, the chain is DDS -> Dullahan. This is because Dullahan is optional.


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#19
Watson

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Nah
 

 


This is all far too confusing for me to swallow.

I had to spend a damn week learning how to make the old method make sense - and I only made it make sense by imagining what it would be like to have multiple SEGOC incidents in one Chain.

That old method classified SEGOC as a rule for all effects that want to activate at the same time AND were all triggered at the same time - meaning that if you had 6 effects, with 2 triggered at point A, 2 at point B, and 2 at point C, and they all want to activate at point C, then all of them triggered at point A would be handled SEGOC style, then point B, then point C.

Now I REALLY don't know what to do and REALLY don't know how to teach myself the new method.


From his post this is my understanding of it, using your example

Point A 2 cards trigger
Point B 2 cards trigger
Point C 2 cards trigger

So SEGOC will go check for turn player mandatorys first, no matter when they trigger, then opponent mandatory, again not carring when they triggered, then turn player non-mandatory in the order they triggered, then non turn player in order of the trigger.

So let's say
Point A is my non mandatory/his non mandatory
Point B is my mandatory and my non mandatory
Point C is his mandatory and his non mandatory

So the chain would look like this

CL 1 my mandatory point B effect
CL 2 His mandatory Point C effect
CL 3 My non mandatory Point A effect
CL 4 my non mandatory Point B effect
CL 5 his non mandatory Point A effect
CL 6 his non mandatory Point C effect

Here's hoping this isn't wrong and I just confused you even more rofl

 


Not quite

It would separate all of them by point

then apply SEGOC to each of those separated groups

So Point A's would all go onto the Chain before Point B's, and all of Point B's before Point C's.

Point A's effects would go onto the Chain in an order dictated by SEGOC, THEN Point B's would do the same, THEN C's.

Actually, that's exactly how it would work.  mandatory takes precedence over which triggered first. if they are both mandatory, then whichever triggered first.  If the effect at A is optional and B is manditory, B will activate on CL before the effect at A.


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