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The Afterlife

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Hampshire    0

Atem: Gödel's proof does not deal with degrees, i.e. of which there is no greater or of which no greater can be conceived. His is a non-relative ontology for a being to which we can attribute all positive qualities, necessary existence included.

Sloth: I'm graduating this year and I'm in my culminating experience which is a seminar in logic. The degree is a philosophy major modified with mathematical logic. I also did the pre-med reqs so I might not continue a formal education in philosophy.

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Stratovarius    79
I kinda want someone to explain to me why I should believe in christianity. I was raised a christian as many are in this country but since I was like 16 or so and really started reasoning things I couldn't when I was a kid like religion I got to thinking that it just didn't make any sense at all. Why would there be so many different religions in the world with each of them believing that their God is the true one and everybody else is going to hell. I mean Americans are much more likely to be Christian and people in the middle east are much more likely to be Islamic so whichever God is the right God comes off as a racist or something because obviously he is aware that certain peoples are more likely to believe in him than others.

Also why the hell am I supposed to just have faith? This just sounds like somebody feeding you bs "believe in this even though I have no evidence to support it cuz if you do you will go to a great place called heaven instead of a terrible one called hell when you die" If God cared about all of us why wouldn't he just show himself to us I mean with his existence confirmed it seems a lot more likely that people would go to Heaven and just be generally "good" why would he not want that.

I think maybe my strongest thing against religion is the fact that we scoff at the greeks and romans and other ancient civilizations for their preposterous religions as well as Scientology and Mormons and such but what makes any other religion more feasible? It's led me to believe that just like back then religion is a human creation with basically two goals the first being people wanting to explain the origin of the world and the the things in it with the 2nd being to make people more hopeful about living as people with miserable lives tend to have an attitude of just enduring it because it won't be long before you are in heaven.

oo paul me and you can have a debate in the car ont he way to barbourville =]

i hear this question allll the time and my answer is its all about faith, i believe in god not because i was raised that way or because i think im better then everyone lese or i need to go to heaven i just believe that there is something more powerful then us that created and understands us i have no proof but i have blind faith.

there are people that trully trully believe there is a god/higher power and will just pull any kind of bs out of there ass that they can even try and call proof. and there may be insurmountable proof against the exsistence of a higher power but it wont change my mind. that may make me stupid but do any of you have any real proof at all what happens after we die spiritually ,but to trully answer this question you must also believe in the exsistence of souls. i love catching stupid ignorant people in there own rediculous evidence or beliefs, and paul you know me prettyy well and you know im not rediculously religous at all. there is soo much to be said about this and my point but ill see were this post takes you guys ^.^

Theoretically speaking if this all-powerful, all-knowing God showed himself in society, there would probably be a series of steps that would lead to the breakdown of civilization (him belonging to one organized religion, all others going fucknuts, etc.) and obviously that would not be beneficial. If it did show itself and people decided to be "good", it would be nothing more than peace through fear of going to hell.

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I kinda want someone to explain to me why I should believe in christianity. I was raised a christian as many are in this country but since I was like 16 or so and really started reasoning things I couldn't when I was a kid like religion I got to thinking that it just didn't make any sense at all. Why would there be so many different religions in the world with each of them believing that their God is the true one and everybody else is going to hell. I mean Americans are much more likely to be Christian and people in the middle east are much more likely to be Islamic so whichever God is the right God comes off as a racist or something because obviously he is aware that certain peoples are more likely to believe in him than others.

Also why the hell am I supposed to just have faith? This just sounds like somebody feeding you bs "believe in this even though I have no evidence to support it cuz if you do you will go to a great place called heaven instead of a terrible one called hell when you die" If God cared about all of us why wouldn't he just show himself to us I mean with his existence confirmed it seems a lot more likely that people would go to Heaven and just be generally "good" why would he not want that.

I think maybe my strongest thing against religion is the fact that we scoff at the greeks and romans and other ancient civilizations for their preposterous religions as well as Scientology and Mormons and such but what makes any other religion more feasible? It's led me to believe that just like back then religion is a human creation with basically two goals the first being people wanting to explain the origin of the world and the the things in it with the 2nd being to make people more hopeful about living as people with miserable lives tend to have an attitude of just enduring it because it won't be long before you are in heaven.

Simply put, the most practical purpose for the afterlife, even as a fictional construct, is to make the current (hellish) life more bearable. Unfortunately my revealing that defeats its purpose.

To simply "just believe" or "have faith" is irrational - but for most of the population it is nonetheless beneficial, for ignorance is bliss. Like credit and our economy, a generally unhappy life is made more stable, and miserable people more hopeful, by constantly feeding (empty) promises of a better tomorrow if only one has faith today. Imagine how many people would stop working, or even living once they find out the carrot on a stick is false!

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Hampshire    0

Here's an interesting argument I've discussed before with a professor of mine: it is logical and rational to hope for an afterlife, assuming a hedonism about conscious states (which is pretty popular in our generation, thus my willingness to present the assumption). From there, I think an abductive argument that a God, loosely defined, is the most likely mechanism through which one could enter such an afterlife, is in order. The conclusion would be that it is logical and rational to hope for God's existence.

That's an oversimplification, needless to say. For example, one would have to explore in great depths the abduction, which I think is possible by appealing to our concept of agents being causally responsible for change. i.e. it would be more plausible that God might extend our consciousness for eternity outside of space and time as opposed to some remote alien technology--especially with all of the physics going on which (unfortunately) points toward an ending universe at worst and an inhospitable universe at best.

There are a number of ways you could attack the argument, but I think the move away from belief and toward hope is refreshing and interesting--possibly a logical point to which both atheists and theists would agree. You could object to the inherent value of conscious states, the possibility of an eternally suffering God and afterlife (I guess this would mirror a sort of atheist-wager counter-argument), etc., but I think those objections are rather weak. It is fairly self-evident to me that the conscious state is of inherent value. Maybe I should clarify: a conscious state with the potential to experience subjectively positive qualia. The argument relies on abduction, so the possibility of a shitty afterlife is already tacit in the argument, etc. I've talked about hope in God with a number of people, theists, atheists, and agnostics alike, and have found great success in unifying them on the point of hope as made very, very distinct from belief.

Of course this brings up more than it settles, as does most philosophy: can hope be justified? what is unjustified hope? is faith a form of hope? what exactly is different about hope and belief? can we choose to hope but not choose to believe (ie explaining doxastic hoping)?

Just some food for thought.

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Word. That's what I was getting at - one of the greatest values of theism is the hope it offers in the form of a good afterlife, regardless of its actual likelihood.

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r3skyline    5

wow, impressive thread on a subject which would usually end up with ignorant responses.

but to kinda lighten the mood just a bit..

we're all gonna die and haunt playgounds such as this place

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article385529.ece

Of course this brings up more than it settles, as does most philosophy: can hope be justified? what is unjustified hope? is faith a form of hope? what exactly is different about hope and belief? can we choose to hope but not choose to believe (ie explaining doxastic hoping)?

Just some food for thought.

hmm, i remember this in PHIL 101. lol...

simply put, this is what was stated at UW

hope is what a person would like

belief is what a person chooses

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Hampshire    0

So, you choose to believe that the sky is blue? or that glass is transparent?

Most beliefs are not chosen. Those that are, are arguably not beliefs anyway.

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r3skyline    5
So, you choose to believe that the sky is blue? or that glass is transparent?

Most beliefs are not chosen. Those that are, are arguably not beliefs anyway.

so if you believe a person will die, then they will?

a belief is simply what a person has concluded to.

i believe there is a God. my personal belief may not be the same as yours, or another's.

its what we ourselves infer about the world around us. we choose it by learning thru ourselves.

hmm, a good read is perhaps this...

http://onbelief.org/Articles/Definitions-of-Belief.htm

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Hampshire    0
So, you choose to believe that the sky is blue? or that glass is transparent?

Most beliefs are not chosen. Those that are, are arguably not beliefs anyway.

so if you believe a person will die, then they will?

a belief is simply what a person has concluded to.

i believe there is a God. my personal belief may not be the same as yours, or another's.

its what we ourselves infer about the world around us. we choose it by learning thru ourselves.

hmm, a good read is perhaps this...

http://onbelief.org/Articles/Definitions-of-Belief.htm

The only epistemologically responsible course of action is to arrive at beliefs through appeal to evidence or cogent argumentation.

"If you believe a person will die, then they will?"

The issue of the causal efficacy of beliefs is entirely irrelevant and offers your position nothing. We are discussing doxastic deliberation, or how we COME to believe, not what our beliefs can or will bring about. But even conceding this and assuming you were trying to make some sort of relevant point, we have to inquire more. What caused you to believe said person will die? If you have no reason or evidence for your belief, then you would not have arrived at that belief in the first place. If, somehow, you manage to do so through some sort of pragmatic approach like William James' 'Will to Believe', then your 'belief' is arguably unjustified and ought to be revised.

A belief does not have to be mentally recognized. When you look at the blue sky, you adopt the belief that the sky is blue based on a posteriori evidence, but (most of the time) you are not mentally aware (ie do not adopt some sort of meta-belief) regarding your belief that the sky is blue. This is why introspection and skepticism is crucial to maintaining your status as a responsible epistemic agent.

A better read for you: 'A New Argument for Evidentialism' by Shah

http://www.springerlink.com/content/e61282r129771v28/

You wrote: "Belief is what a person chooses."

There are some beliefs that we ought to think hard about, mull around the evidence in our heads, etc., and choose. I don't argue against this.

I simply argue that not all beliefs are explicitly chosen; thus my example of the belief that the sky is blue, which we do not think about unless prompted to by a post like this.

If you believe in God, for instance, but you have simply chosen to adopt this belief based on no evidence, then you're not being a responsible rational agent. In the same way you ought not 'choose' to believe that a piece of paper is black rather than white, when you so clearly see it as white, you ought to weigh evidence first and then arrive at a conclusion. Whether or not it is pragmatically beneficial to adopt a belief is in no way related to doxastic deliberation. It bypasses your rationality and conditions you like Pavlov's dog.

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Blackwind    0

This in itself is not wholly true. His conclusion of God's existence could be directly derived by a process of elimination. Allow me to bring depth to my counter-claim.

It is easy to say "I cannot see, touch, smell, taste nor hear God thus there is no God."

But it is also easy to say "I can touch, see, smell, hear and live amongst everything around me formed perfectly and crafted without error. To such an effect that the existence of a creator is almost unquestionable as there is no possible other logical explanation for the design of current creation."

Now of course there are counter claims to my counter claim but this is what makes this argument debatable. An atheist shouldn't say there is no God. Rather he should say he doesn't know if there is indeed a God. If I were to ask you if you think you knew 5% of all there is to know in the world I seriously doubt you would tell me yes. I'd be as bold as to say you could POSSIBLY know 2% of all there is to know in the world therefore legitimizing my point if you can agree with me that in the vast 98% of all there is to know in the universe, God could exist.

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Hmmmm....gotta love religious talks!!! But anyway....i was raised Christian and all that good stuff. I've seen soooo much that if ppl could see,they would believe. I'm kinda one of those "blind faith" ppl,but i see proof of my beliefs each day. I believe we speak things into existence. Most ppl retort with the "im gonna sprout wings and fly hurr durr" and i understand why. But an example of this if 99.9% of the time,before a match,i call the die roll(1/6%) and i get it rite almost all the time. How do u explain that? Probability? Maybe....i believe its something more. This stems from we are all made in God's image. He spoke things into existence,quite literally. Another more common example is that i do not get the flu or flu shot because i say "i will not get sick". Most ppl say "ohhh....its flu season,im gonna get sick" and lo and behold....they get sick. I know most of you will probably think " well,thats a coincidence. Maybe...but whats the probability of that? Im also one of those ppl who take the Bible quite literally. I would explain that,but theres no point. Just my two cents. Oh and btw,i KNOW all this,i dont believe. Yet i dont follow it....

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Lang    905

We rot away in our casket. I feel if there was a god, he would have stopped certain events from occurring (i.e 9/11). We all shouldn't have to go through that sort of shit. So ya no heaven/hell. I know somebody won't like this, but w.e

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»Rimmer    2209
Hmmmm....gotta love religious talks!!! But anyway....i was raised Christian and all that good stuff. I've seen soooo much that if ppl could see,they would believe. I'm kinda one of those "blind faith" ppl,but i see proof of my beliefs each day. I believe we speak things into existence. Most ppl retort with the "im gonna sprout wings and fly hurr durr" and i understand why. But an example of this if 99.9% of the time,before a match,i call the die roll(1/6%) and i get it rite almost all the time. How do u explain that? Probability? Maybe....i believe its something more. This stems from we are all made in God's image. He spoke things into existence,quite literally. Another more common example is that i do not get the flu or flu shot because i say "i will not get sick". Most ppl say "ohhh....its flu season,im gonna get sick" and lo and behold....they get sick. I know most of you will probably think " well,thats a coincidence. Maybe...but whats the probability of that? Im also one of those ppl who take the Bible quite literally. I would explain that,but theres no point. Just my two cents. Oh and btw,i KNOW all this,i dont believe. Yet i dont follow it....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_d...imply_causation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

:)

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DuelGod    1

I find that not believing in Religion doesn't mean you can't believe in God. So many religions have flaws and are corrupt and herd people into things that have nothing to do with God.

- Catholic Saints

- The Obalisk in Saint Peter's Square. (its a symbol to another god)

- Saying Amen after prayers. (Amen is the name of an Ancient Egyptian God.) Look it up.

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Wilson    12516
Hmmmm....gotta love religious talks!!! But anyway....i was raised Christian and all that good stuff. I've seen soooo much that if ppl could see,they would believe. I'm kinda one of those "blind faith" ppl,but i see proof of my beliefs each day. I believe we speak things into existence. Most ppl retort with the "im gonna sprout wings and fly hurr durr" and i understand why. But an example of this if 99.9% of the time,before a match,i call the die roll(1/6%) and i get it rite almost all the time. How do u explain that? Probability? Maybe....i believe its something more. This stems from we are all made in God's image. He spoke things into existence,quite literally. Another more common example is that i do not get the flu or flu shot because i say "i will not get sick". Most ppl say "ohhh....its flu season,im gonna get sick" and lo and behold....they get sick. I know most of you will probably think " well,thats a coincidence. Maybe...but whats the probability of that? Im also one of those ppl who take the Bible quite literally. I would explain that,but theres no point. Just my two cents. Oh and btw,i KNOW all this,i dont believe. Yet i dont follow it....

Please, please tell me you're a troll.

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Conscription.    1152

Our bodies will be reincarnated into a tree, where I will bloom in the middle of the desert giving life to the lost travelers. From there a pond with fresh water will be next to me, where I have many fruits and different kinds. Apples, Oranges, Lemons, etc.

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Seraph    18
Hmmmm....gotta love religious talks!!! But anyway....i was raised Christian and all that good stuff. I've seen soooo much that if ppl could see,they would believe. I'm kinda one of those "blind faith" ppl,but i see proof of my beliefs each day. I believe we speak things into existence. Most ppl retort with the "im gonna sprout wings and fly hurr durr" and i understand why. But an example of this if 99.9% of the time,before a match,i call the die roll(1/6%) and i get it rite almost all the time. How do u explain that? Probability? Maybe....i believe its something more. This stems from we are all made in God's image. He spoke things into existence,quite literally. Another more common example is that i do not get the flu or flu shot because i say "i will not get sick". Most ppl say "ohhh....its flu season,im gonna get sick" and lo and behold....they get sick. I know most of you will probably think " well,thats a coincidence. Maybe...but whats the probability of that? Im also one of those ppl who take the Bible quite literally. I would explain that,but theres no point. Just my two cents. Oh and btw,i KNOW all this,i dont believe. Yet i dont follow it....

let me start by saying china called they want their wall back. some might explain the die roll thing as cheating and im going to say this right now. thumper doesnt cheat, its beyond him. ur ass did get sick tho. hell i gave u the cold.remember? i got it from rodney. it was funny u kept denying u were sick but i remember all the coughing and blowing of the nose. just saying, its good to try to spread awareness of the existance of god, but dont lie to do so. everyone gets sick.

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I nvr said i nvr have gotten sick. Way 2 misinterpret. Anyway....have u seen me sick during flu season? No. Hmmmm...coincidence? i think not

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Seraph    18
I nvr said i nvr have gotten sick. Way 2 misinterpret. Anyway....have u seen me sick during flu season? No. Hmmmm...coincidence? i think not

all i remember is that u said "im not getting sick" and the next week ur ass was sick. then there was that time u had that fever at my house and u said u were fine, and u werent. my couch still has the sweat stains to prove it.

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»...Arson    7756
Hmmmm....gotta love religious talks!!! But anyway....i was raised Christian and all that good stuff. I've seen soooo much that if ppl could see,they would believe. I'm kinda one of those "blind faith" ppl,but i see proof of my beliefs each day. I believe we speak things into existence. Most ppl retort with the "im gonna sprout wings and fly hurr durr" and i understand why. But an example of this if 99.9% of the time,before a match,i call the die roll(1/6%) and i get it rite almost all the time. How do u explain that? Probability? Maybe....i believe its something more. This stems from we are all made in God's image. He spoke things into existence,quite literally. Another more common example is that i do not get the flu or flu shot because i say "i will not get sick". Most ppl say "ohhh....its flu season,im gonna get sick" and lo and behold....they get sick. I know most of you will probably think " well,thats a coincidence. Maybe...but whats the probability of that? Im also one of those ppl who take the Bible quite literally. I would explain that,but theres no point. Just my two cents. Oh and btw,i KNOW all this,i dont believe. Yet i dont follow it....

amazing post

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IAmTheGreat    3772

I hope you both die on a cross

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