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The Official Goat Format Thread (April 2005 Forbidden and Limited Lists) [Sets Until TLM]

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Also less reason to worry about losing to Ring or getting run over on LP super fast because the damage buffer is far higher without Exarion. That's two more reasons why you don't really need to risk the inherent -1 from Book to protect yourself.

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3 hours ago, SageRhapsody said:

Anyone wanna try justifying why they negged my post or do we just throw meaningful discussion out the window in new DGz and randomly neg shit and then dip out

 

Versatility alone is a shit reason to claim a card is unhealthy for a format. Not that most reasons people give for Exarion goats being worse aren't terrible, but the claim that the card does everything so it's bad for the format demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of how yugioh works. Because Exarion is a swiss army knife of options, making the decision of when you pull the trigger on summoning / setting your Exarions are real decisions. It's the opposite of a card like Tsukuyomi, where it's incredibly powerful in certain situations, and literally unsummonable in others. Similarly, how the opponent chooses to answer an opposing Exarion is yet another relevant decision point. Do they take the first hit, then burn a Morph and turn it into a push? Do they Saku/Ring it and potentially lose their answer to BLS? Hell, maybe they just set MoF into it and see what happens when they pass the turn back.

 

Exarion is one of the few cards in the goat mirror that lets you pick what role you're trying to play. You can set your Exarion to try to bait a NoC to resolve MoFs or Merchants in later turns if you want to try to pursue that plan, or you can summon it and try to win the game fast if your opponent has an opening with inevitability. 

 

Just because a card lets you do everything, doesn't mean it can do everything at the same time. There are still decisions with the card, I'd argue more difficult decisions involving it than most other cards in the goat deck. Graceful Charity also does everything, but I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread would agree that Grace is both one of the hardest cards to use properly in the goat deck, and the healthiest piece of trinity to have in the format. 

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@Bazaar of Baghdad

 

Well said. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

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As some who has gone from pro-Exarion to no-Exarion to somewhere in the middle...

 

I understand both sides to the Exarion argument and both have good points about why it should or shouldn't be.  But "true goats" i.e. the actual format we actually played in 2005 is in all likelihood not a solved format.  I'd encourage people to give it some time.  I suspect part of the reason there is a negative reaction is because cards that were not viable in Exarion goats have won a few games so you feel cheated out of what should have been a win (I'm not implying that people who complain about this are losing overall).   It's not so much that Kycoo etc. are bad choices (even though they appear to be even this early in the format) but that we don't seem to know what the optimal builds are. 

 

We have essentially zero literature on no-Exarion deck building and the greater population of players has zero access to any current deck models so they can net deck.  Those things are a driving force behind shaping the meta.  What should happen is that as long as DB stays up (this may not last forever), the number of deck lists available online should increase and some of those will be prominent goat community members' deck lists, which people are more inclined to copy since those decks are usually better.  Then the apparent card pool starts to shrink resulting in more predictable match ups and card choices which should elevate the base level of skill required in a game.

 

Let's assume for the sake of providing an example: Jazz's build is the optimal goat deck build of the format.  You now have access to that deck build and are likely to play against it as well as use it for yourself.  Now the random factor of cards like Spirit Reaper discarding your Snatch Steal is gone and you can account for the possibility of what would have been a "random" Creature Swap by ensuring efficient use of your Scapegoats.  You also won't get punished for -1400 this time either.  What it appears like is that arguments for an Exarion format using decision making can easily be translated to any hypothetical optimized no-Exarion goat deck match ups (How do you use X? Do I wait for Y? etc.), provided the meta does stabilize of course since those arguments for Exarion are essentially using Kris Perovic's goat deck (an optimized build) as an example (correct me if I'm wrong about essentially using his deck as an example).

 

Of course the alternative is that cards like (or some combination of) Asura, Blade Knight and even more seemingly random cards like Spy, Reaper and Kycoo are all extremely close to or equal in value in which case there's no real possible way to account for that kind of stuff, especially if that value is reflected in a variety of deck lists.  There's also the chance that goat control isn't the best deck, which would be extremely surprising.

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lol I talked with some friends about making Exarion's 400 ATK decrease permanent, that way it's actually kind of a cost.

It would also reset back to 1800 with Tsukuyomi, however, which could be problematic (since he can pierce for 1400 again) but it's still kind of a cool interaction.

I think it'd be a fun idea to test regardless.

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I prefer the format without Exarion Universe for two reasons.

  1. Exarion pushed out cards like D.D Assailant, Gravekeeper's Spy/Guard, Kycoo, Spirit Reaper, SDM, Night Assailant, Newdoria, Tomatos. Reducing the number of viable decklists that each had some unique elements into almost 40 card mirrors. 
  2. It's more historically accurate. Exarion only existed pre-CRV for like a week so using it, but not CRV never made a lot of sense.

I get that some people like playing 40 card mirrors thinking that the more skilled player will win more often than not, but every time I have played them it always feels very one dimensional in terms of how the games playout. You either end up being the beatdown with Exarions and hope to press in damage against an answerless opponent, or you draw more pieces of trinity to them and snowball it into an huge advantage. 

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40 card mirrors are super overrated. People think they make for great formats, and then people realize how less than fun it tends to be. Part of the reason why teledad is probably the most overrated format of all time. Yes, the better player usually won, up to a certain point where both players were able to pilot their decks as well as could be expected then the match turns into he who draws better wins all the time.

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in teledad's defense, there were tons of teensy weensy variations between the lists that made the format fun to explore in its own weirdo degenerate way, but this was probably only the case because it took so long for everyone to realize how good oppression was. once everyone's playing that card, it's a lot harder to ~~i N n O v A t E~~ u feel me

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42 minutes ago, mmf said:

 ~~i N n O v A t E~~ 

 

throwback to the good ole days

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@Bazaar of Baghdad That wasn't my only reasoning for exarion being broken, I simply pointed out the flaws in Jazz's logic in that post. Everyone has already made the case against Exarion a million times. I saw no need to beat a dead horse-creature thing. Exarion is brainless to slap into your deck, and having multiple trees of uses doesn't make it anymore skillful to use. Unless it's a garbage player nobody is going to be setting an exerion when they have a clear opportunity to pressure lifepoints. You seem to be implying that you'd have to make the decision of not summoning exarion when they have goat tokens and no s/t set so that you can bait NoCs later by setting it. There's no real decision making process with Exarion. Sure you can be creative with it, and I'm perfectly fine with swiss army knife cards. You don't see me complaining about tsuki or meta. The problem stems from the fact that punishing the rare poor use of exarion is incredibly difficult. If someone uses meta, BLS, Airknight, Jinzo etc etc etc poorly you can punish them hard for their mistake. Exarion has no such opening. Any play you'd make to deal with it comes at a greater opportunity cost and well as holds risk of being countered. The worst thing that can happen to an Exarion is having it get Zaborg'd or TER'd (while you have no answers) and having it beat over by jinzo, bls or airknight. But lacking answers to these cards would mean you are in a losing position regardless. 

 

If at the very least exarion had some sort of opportunity cost, some weakness of some sort it would be a much healthier card for the format. It's very easy to see how meta warping it is when it pushes out literally any other vaguely similar card from decks, as well as makes insanely strong cards such as spirit reaper unplayable (While a bit inconsistent that card is busted). Not to mention it gave rise to a zoo deck in a meta named after scapegoat, a very strong defensive wall. 

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Without really giving my opinion on the matter itself, I think this is where Jazz and ACP are coming from:
 

Jazz is looking at 'skill' as purely the win-rate a skilled player can have over a non-skilled player. It does not matter if Exarion is an auto-include or not, what matters is that a skilled player will have a very consistent deck so he can outplay their opponents, and have a high winrate. Pre-Exarion, you have to choose from worse cards, you will lose games due to drawing the wrong card at the wrong time, and your win rate will drop overall. 

ACP is looking at 'skill' as making hard decisions: looking at all possible cards one can play, and deciding which of these is best for any specific moment. This includes making meta-calls, creativity, etc, and this is more important than having 1 'very good, consistent' card that you can auto-include to have a high win rate against worse players, because good players should be able to find the next best alternative to Exarion.


I don't know which of the 2 is right, and whether pre or post-Exarion is more skillful, but I think this shows that there are multiple layers of skills to be looked at. Even win rate is a vague term, because your win rate is only relative to that of your opponent, and maybe if 2 almost equally good players play each other in Exarion format, or in pre-Exarion format, it could be the case that in pre-Exarion the deckbuilding choices give more depth to the game, and give players the chance to create a deckbuilding edge over the other, where with Exarion, people play the same list, so there's less room for this. On the other hand it could be the case that in Exarion format, good players will win more consistently against bad players than in pre-Exarion, because in pre-Exarion even if you make the perfect metacalls, you'll still lose games to 'drawing the wrong cards at the wrong time' more often. 

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5 hours ago, Gemstone Mine said:

40 card mirrors are super overrated. People think they make for great formats, and then people realize how less than fun it tends to be. Part of the reason why teledad is probably the most overrated format of all time. Yes, the better player usually won, up to a certain point where both players were able to pilot their decks as well as could be expected then the match turns into he who draws better wins all the time.

 

Yeah I definitely think Draft format is way more skilful than 1-deck formats, although it should be noted as well that during the entire Dragon Ruler formats, every single one of them was skillful because good players did well very consistently. But yeah, these formats changed from Baby Rulers, Dragunity Rulers to Trigon Rulers, etc. 1-deck formats are probably good for a period of time, but it shouldn't be longer than several months or it will become stale, every 3 months or so 'something' must change, either by the banlist, or by introducing broken cards in card sets.

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Quote

 

Pre-Exarion, you have to choose from worse cards, you will lose games due to drawing the wrong card at the wrong time, and your win rate will drop overall. 

 

 

if this is jazz's argument it's a fucktarded one

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neither format is "more skillful," nor does it have to be

 

one is just more interesting than the other from a deckbuilding perspective

 

a card doesn't have to be brainless to be unhealthy. cyber dragon was not at all a brainless card, but most would certainly agree that its overall effect on goat format was unhealthy -- it brought the number of playable monsters in the format down from like 30 to 13. contrary to popular belief, pot of greed is not a brainless card either, but most regard it as one of the less healthy pieces of trinity in the format

 

13 hours ago, Jazz said:

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

trust me we know

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10 hours ago, Library of Alexandria said:

It's more historically accurate. Exarion only existed pre-CRV for like a week so using it, but not CRV never made a lot of sense.

Actually there was never a format where you could play Exarion without CRV. CRV was released on August 17th and legal on September 1st for premier events. Exarion and released and legal on September 1st. However, this does mean that at locals, there was a 2 week period of time where you could play with CRV without Exarion, because for locals, sets were legal upon release. Anyone wanna play CRV no Exarion?

 

8 hours ago, mmf said:

in teledad's defense, there were tons of teensy weensy variations between the lists that made the format fun to explore in its own weirdo degenerate way, but this was probably only the case because it took so long for everyone to realize how good oppression was. once everyone's playing that card, it's a lot harder to ~~i N n O v A t E~~ u feel me

Hm, so what you're trying to say is that once everyone figured out that Oppression was nuts in every list and was good basically all of the time, it stifled diversity in trap lineups and made every deck much more similar to each other? Hm, I wonder what that reminds me of...

 

4 hours ago, vig=scum said:

Without really giving my opinion on the matter itself, I think this is where Jazz and ACP are coming from:
 

Jazz is looking at 'skill' as purely the win-rate a skilled player can have over a non-skilled player. It does not matter if Exarion is an auto-include or not, what matters is that a skilled player will have a very consistent deck so he can outplay their opponents, and have a high winrate. Pre-Exarion, you have to choose from worse cards, you will lose games due to drawing the wrong card at the wrong time, and your win rate will drop overall. 

ACP is looking at 'skill' as making hard decisions: looking at all possible cards one can play, and deciding which of these is best for any specific moment. This includes making meta-calls, creativity, etc, and this is more important than having 1 'very good, consistent' card that you can auto-include to have a high win rate against worse players, because good players should be able to find the next best alternative to Exarion.


I don't know which of the 2 is right, and whether pre or post-Exarion is more skillful, but I think this shows that there are multiple layers of skills to be looked at. Even win rate is a vague term, because your win rate is only relative to that of your opponent, and maybe if 2 almost equally good players play each other in Exarion format, or in pre-Exarion format, it could be the case that in pre-Exarion the deckbuilding choices give more depth to the game, and give players the chance to create a deckbuilding edge over the other, where with Exarion, people play the same list, so there's less room for this. On the other hand it could be the case that in Exarion format, good players will win more consistently against bad players than in pre-Exarion, because in pre-Exarion even if you make the perfect metacalls, you'll still lose games to 'drawing the wrong cards at the wrong time' more often. 

No, I'm agreeing that skill is purely the win-rate of a skilled player over a non-skilled player (or more accurately, the variance of winrates). Why do skilled players have high winrates over non-skilled players? Because they make better decisions, both in-game and out-of-game (ie deckbuilding). When there are less decisions to make, there are less opportunities to outplay the opponent. When the correct decisions are obvious to the average player, there are less opportunities to outplay your opponents. Exarion is not a particularly difficult card to use. How often do you watch a game of Exarion goats and see someone misplay their Exarion? I literally don't think I ever have. It also makes the deckbuilding decisions a lot easier. You just start with KrisP's build and then decide if you'd like to change 1 or 2 cards. From a game design/fun point of view, this sucks. If you're interested in the sustainability of the format (which I'd certainly hope that you are), then it's better to encourage people to play the format that is more dynamic and evolving, as this kind of format is more likely to sustain fans' interests for a longer period of time.

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at a certain point you don't want to just keep throwing power cards into the format with the thin justification that they will be hard to play correctly. there's a relevant parallel in current yugioh. it should be pretty obvious at this point to anyone even remotely involved with competitive play now that zoodiac is far and away the best deck in the format if played perfectly, and if you're playing zoodiac, it's honestly a pretty awesome format: everything is a 1 card combo, so every single card in your hand comes with its own sets of options and decisions for the player to choose from. premier tournaments are pretty entertaining to both play in and watch -- YCS Seattle finals showcased a very high level zoo mirror for the time, YCS Atlanta gave us a cinderella story with Paleozoic tearing through unprepared and incompetent zoo players, and so on. since the zoodiac decks are all hyperconsistent and punish the player heavily for even slightly wrong sequencing, the better player usually wins the mirror (probably something like 80-20 or less). all in all, it's a very skilled format.

 

all this considered, you'd still be crazy to think that zoodiac doesn't need to get murdered by the banlist. people don't like being shoehorned into specific decks, and zoodiac is a particularly bad offender here because of how modular the cards are (you can basically put the core engine in any and every deck in the format, and it's rarely incorrect to do so). goat format already has a lot of staple cards that you start most if not all decklists with, what exactly are we hoping to gain by adding another?

 

Quote

Hm, so what you're trying to say is that once everyone figured out that Oppression was nuts in every list and was good basically all of the time, it stifled diversity in trap lineups and made every deck much more similar to each other? Hm, I wonder what that reminds me of...

yeah, i've said this before but when we play teledad now we play without oppression for the exact same reason that exarion in goats blows imo. even from just a technical play perspective, the difference feels like night and fucking day, and it doesn't take long to notice it at all (when hoban first convinced me of this, i think we played like, one or two games with oppression, and then he was like, "okay, now let me show you what it's like without oppression," and after like 3 games of that i never looked back lmao). to me, exarion in goats is exactly the same fucking thing

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Posted (edited)

The primary reason Pre Exarion format is more dynamic and evolving at the moment is because it's been ignored for the last 5 years.

 

The primary reason I don't like Pre Exarion format as much so far is because it seems to be a Trap Dustshoot centric format and I much prefer when the format revolves around simpler cards like Book of Moon and Sakuretsu Armor that emphasize fundamentals such as being able to anticipate and read your opponent.

 

Edited by Jazz
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but allen said dusthoot was bad hm

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Trap Dustshoot really isn't that good in either goat format. It's high risk, low reward. People are biased because they know how good Dustshoot was in 2007 onward and don't know how to evaluate cards correctly. The fact that Jazz is terrible at card evaluation and can't figure out which cards are good when he has to do more than take KrisP's list and change two cards is precisely why I prefer to play Exarion-less goats.

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I just wish we could create some sort of "authority" for goats. If we had this, I think our best course of action is just to simply nerf exarion a bit. Maybe just make it's defense a bit weaker so at the very least full power breaker and airknight can kill it. All I want is for play styles to be viable in Goats. The mark of a good healthy format is that different players can play their deck differently with a slightly different style and still win. As an example, mermail, shaddoll/ba, fire fists all were good examples of formats where even identical decklists could be played wildly differently and there was room to shift the style of each archetype. Not to mention good players would change gears on their game plan depending on situations. Exarion goats at the moment feels streamlined. You simply only play to deal with opponent's threats as efficiently as possible while playing to gain plusses over them, and poking them whenever you can. You only really start to look for lethal when you have a BLS/Ring. By just looking at it, you'd never think a card like Exarion would see play in a control deck like Goats, yet because of how busted its stats are, and how much obscene damage threat it provides, just by playing it you force sub-optimal responses by your opponent. Or just get a free win through damage.

 

Going pre-exarion may not change this fact much, but at least it will allow us to experiment with other goats styles of playing. We can see aggressive lists with zaloog and reaper, or more advantage based ones with dekoichi etc. And if we do that nerfing thing of Exarion we may even be able to see an interesting zoo-ish goats list. 

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Yeah dustshoot has no business in a goats list. Goats doesn't aim to simplify game states, not to mention dustshoot can be fucking awful to top deck later on when you're looking for power cards. High risk low reward indeed. A shitty 1 for 1 trap that only works when they have 4 cards and can only hit monsters isn't really worth it. The hand info isn't even all TOO valuable because a lot of the times you can read what they've set/might be holding and should be playing around it anyways. 

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9 minutes ago, ACP said:

Trap Dustshoot really isn't that good in either goat format. It's high risk, low reward. People are biased because they know how good Dustshoot was in 2007 onward and don't know how to evaluate cards correctly. The fact that Jazz is terrible at card evaluation and can't figure out which cards are good when he has to do more than take KrisP's list and change two cards is precisely why I prefer to play Exarion-less goats.

 

How many games have you played recently?

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5 minutes ago, SageRhapsody said:

Yeah dustshoot has no business in a goats list. Goats doesn't aim to simplify game states, not to mention dustshoot can be fucking awful to top deck later on when you're looking for power cards. High risk low reward indeed. A shitty 1 for 1 trap that only works when they have 4 cards and can only hit monsters isn't really worth it. The hand info isn't even all TOO valuable because a lot of the times you can read what they've set/might be holding and should be playing around it anyways. 

 

Get in line and I will smash you with the deck next.

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Individual players' playstyles do not exist. Different decks may behave differently, but there are always good plays and bad plays, depending on the situation, and good players will be able to determine which play is the best to make in most situations.

 

Both formats have their obvious pros and cons, but trying to change Exarion Goats into a completely different format with changed effects seems stupid and pointless. All it would do is cause unnecessary confusion between players. First, you'll start with changing Exarion's effect, then you'll change Ring, then BLS, etc., etc.
If you want to play with Exarion, then play Exarion Goats. If you don't, then don't. It's that simple.

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12 minutes ago, Jazz said:

 

How many games have you played recently?

I played more than twice as many matches as you in Exarion-less goat warring and finished with a better rating. Playing against idiots on nostalgia duelist doesn't count, sorry. Test against good players, and you'll realize that Trap Dustshoot is one of the easiest cards to play around in the format. When you put the card in your deck, you're basically saying, "I plan to have an insurmountable advantage by my turn 3, or will otherwise lose the late game due to my deck's card quality." That's a great strategy to have in an aggressive deck, but in control vs control matchups that involve good players, Dustshoot is just bad EV.

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