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Goat Format War League

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+Urthor    10210

Like there's never going to be an IRL "oh lets play goat format card for card exactly as we always did" tournament of any significant value outside maybe somewhere on the US east coast, so I don't see why making a handful of the most obvious changes to goat format to improve it isn't an issue.  Nothing significant like banning duo, just fiddle with some of the stuff on the fringes.

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»BoraxTheLean    7119

 

 

People who vote yes in the poll should read: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

 
Only members of the league count, obviously. Don't vote if you are not playing.

 

You should read!


Considering he's talking abouthe legitimate mindset of how you approach competitive play in tournaments that legalise that playstyle, idg what your point is.

 

 

Saying "alt win is bad for game design and a bad way to run our tournament as tournament organisers" doesn't conflict with that core idea of Sirlin's at all.  

 

You should read!  You'd understand that the underlying perspective from which he's writing is that of a player with no influence over the policies of how a tournament or game is run/managed.

Just because this mindset is what you've always known on DG, does not mean it is not congruent with the scrub mentality.

 

It is very disheartening to see you post this Urthor, I wish you would be able to think beyond the confines that you've set for yourself.

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»ACP    33410

I find it hard to believe that Sirlin would support banning a deck because it won a single match. For additional reference: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

 

The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban


But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable. 

If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.

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Jazz    5322

Borax, this is the Goat War League thread, not the "Are OTKs skillful thread?" Take your cause elsewhere.

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+Urthor    10210

I find it hard to believe that Sirlin would support banning a deck because it won a single match. For additional reference: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

 

 

The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban


But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable. 

If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.

 

 

If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing

 

 

Did you read this part of your quote?

 

And I don't mean to say which specific bans there should/shouldn't be.  I'm merely saying the concept of some small changes would be a good idea.  We kinda do have a good idea of what decks are healthy and unhealthy after 10 years of play, and this is just for fun.  Combo is really only fun for one side at the end of the day, it's not unrealistic to say "no combo" in these types of tournaments.

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»ACP    33410

@Jazz: This is also DGz, where we all have a right to state our opinion and explain why we hold the opinion that we do. If you don't want to count his vote that's your prerogative, but don't tell him that he's not allowed to state his opinion when he's a mod/war council for Christ's sake. His opinion is fairly relevant.

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»ACP    33410

 

I find it hard to believe that Sirlin would support banning a deck because it won a single match. For additional reference: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

 

 

The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban


But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable. 

If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.

 

 

>If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing

 

 

Did you read this part of your quote?

 

And I don't mean to say which specific bans there should/shouldn't be.  I'm merely saying the concept of some small changes would be a good idea.  

 

Yes, I did. Did you? The fact is that since the goat format reboot, we have pre-emptively banned OTKs without given them a chance to compete. If no-bans goat tournaments (such as actual 2005) OTK did terrible as a whole. We do have 10 years of testing, and none of it even remotely implies that OTK oppressing to the format.

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Jazz    5322

Allen, my issue with OTKs in this league structure has not been addressed. This is actually not a tournament where you must use the same deck for the duration. Sure the EV is the same IF you used it in every match, but you don't have to and you can pick and choose which opponents you want to roll the dice with it on. That is why I am leaning toward banning OTKs.

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»ACP    33410

And you haven't even began to explain why that's a problem.

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+Urthor    10210

Because in the day tournaments were swiss, and the oppression of swiss meant that you had to use decks that were potentially able to win 85% or more of your matches on a good day, because that's what it took to top.  A combo deck might have a positive win ratio in 60-70% of matches, but it wouldn't be able to tree and excede that percentage, which is what a deck ultimately needs to do to pass a swiss.  This lead to an increase in standard goat control mirrors.


And the fact is allen, combo's fun for the pilot.  Not the other person.  You're negating 50% of the overall fun in a game w/e you use combo.  The question is, what competitive merit is there to that?  Do we want people to compete on "who can make off the wall goldfishes the best."   Or do people just want to play goat mirrors because they're fun. 

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wonderPreaux    1408

I think what Jazz is touching on here is that, say I'm paired against someone more skilled than I, I can use a higher variance deck like an OTK to reduce the relevance of that skill disparity. I personally don't see this as a compelling argument, given that trying to bounce between different decks that demand different skillsets requires a certain level of proficiency in-and-of-itself, and additionally if you cant adapt or remain focused against a combo deck, maybe that is the sign of a lack of overall skill for the control player, even if they might be better in the mirror.

 

As an aside, I will actually be very disappointed if we start honor-banning things, a large part of my excitement for this event was the opportunity to explore the format "as it was" versus "as we like".

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+Mascis    4553

im on for games

 

if you otk me i might yell at you

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»ACP    33410

Because in the day tournaments were swiss, and the oppression of swiss meant that you had to use decks that were potentially able to win 85% or more of your matches on a good day, because that's what it took to top.  A combo deck might have a positive win ratio in 60-70% of matches, but it wouldn't be able to tree and excede that percentage, which is what a deck ultimately needs to do to pass a swiss.  This lead to an increase in standard goat control mirrors.


And the fact is allen, combo's fun for the pilot.  Not the other person.  You're negating 50% of the overall fun in a game w/e you use combo.  The question is, what competitive merit is there to that?  Do we want people to compete on "who can make off the wall goldfishes the best."   Or do people just want to play goat mirrors because they're fun. 

I can't even begin to comprehend the logic that was involved in constructing this post. You literally want to ban deck X because it's worse than deck Y? I don't even.

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»BoraxTheLean    7119

Borax, this is the Goat War League thread, not the "Are OTKs skillful thread?" Take your cause elsewhere.

Who are you to define what is "skillful"?  I am honestly shocked that you don't see the congruencies between the way you're acting and talking about this subject and what is described in the linked article.

 

[quote]The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about "skill" and how he has skill whereas other players--very much including the ones who beat him flat out--do not have skill. The confusion here is what "skill" actually is. In Street Fighter, scrubs often cling to combos as a measure of skill. A combo is sequence of moves that are unblockable if the first move hits. Combos can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take "skill," according to the scrub. The "dragon punch" or "uppercut" in Street Fighter is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any scrub and they will tell you that a dragon punch is a "skill move." Just last week I played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with "no skill moves" while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him 5 times in a row asking, "is that all you know how to do? throw?" I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, "Play to win, not to do ˜difficult moves.'" This was a big moment in that scrub's life. He could either write his losses off and continue living in his mental prison, or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.[/quote]

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Jazz    5322

Sigh... the debate here is not whether or not OTKs take skill and I never even asked if they did. The debate is whether their allowance is appropriate for this league and what the people want. I still don't see how spamming your holier than thou article is relevant.

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»BoraxTheLean    7119

Sigh... the debate here is not whether or not OTKs take skill and I never even asked if they did. The debate is whether their allowance is appropriate for this league and what the people want. I still don't see how spamming your holier than thou article is relevant.

And I don't see how you're helping the community by limiting the scope of this format and not allowing the metagame to flesh out because for *some reason* you deem these decks inappropriate for competitive play.

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+Paraliel+    8030

Banning decks so people can play an imaginary format is silly. Play the whole format or play none of it.

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Jazz    5322

WWGGD?

 

[spoiler]

What would the golden goat do?

[/spoiler]

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Living Legend    3798
I just always thought a banning on 'otks' or combo decks would lead to a lot of complications. Like ok I won't run mass driver, but what if I used a deck based around dmoc+dimension fusion to make huge pushes in one turn and gain advantage? Where do you draw the line, unless you want to ban specific cards? Like others have said, the format is sufficiently deep to allow for some fun experimentation, and it would be cool if we somehow broke goat format a second time (ironically I actually think that almost all the good goat options have been sufficiently explored so the chances of that are very low but whatever lol). Since goat mirror doesn't require too much siding, there is more than enough room to dedicate to neko mane kings or whatever, and the consistency of these deck is massively exaggerated anyway. So yeah even though I am not in this league due to time constraints I don think you should ban anything
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TFJ    618

I just always thought a banning on 'otks' or combo decks would lead to a lot of complications. Like ok I won't run mass driver, but what if I used a deck based around dmoc+dimension fusion to make huge pushes in one turn and gain advantage? Where do you draw the line, unless you want to ban specific cards? Like others have said, the format is sufficiently deep to allow for some fun experimentation, and it would be cool if we somehow broke goat format a second time (ironically I actually think that almost all the good goat options have been sufficiently explored so the chances of that are very low but whatever lol). Since goat mirror doesn't require too much siding, there is more than enough room to dedicate to neko mane kings or whatever, and the consistency of these deck is massively exaggerated anyway. So yeah even though I am not in this league due to time constraints I don think you should ban anything

I have no stance on this. But Jazz's point is the OTK does not need to be consistent. You aren't forced to use it unless you want to. And he is afraid that players would pick it to knock out a better player.

In a sense they are taking a suicide bomb deck for one round of swiss while playing every other round normal. And in that case OTK can look attractive.
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»ACP    33410

Perovic and I recorded some casual games of Empty Jar vs standard goats. G1 I combo'd off and killed him, g2 he crushed my dick not close, then g3 I would've won if he hadn't cheated me with illegal Call of the Haunted combos and I didn't realize until after. I'll upload to Youtube if you guys want.

 

tl;dr: get on perovic's level, faggots

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Jazz    5322

Perovic and I recorded some casual games of Empty Jar vs standard goats. G1 I combo'd off and killed him, g2 he crushed my dick not close, then g3 I would've won if he hadn't cheated me with illegal Call of the Haunted combos and I didn't realize until after. I'll upload to Youtube if you guys want.

 

tl;dr: get on perovic's level, faggots

 

Well I'm sure there was a nicer way to say that last part, but lookin forward to the upload.

 

PS what are the known counters, we should tell people this bc nobody fucking talks about this ever and even I, digger up of crazy ygo information from the archives, dont want to sift through all that mess. I don't have the time right now, especially with managing this league.

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»ACP    33410

Like Mike Steinman, I don't want to give away my secret ygo technical knowledge.

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-L2theZ-    1611

What's wrong with side decking against it? Doesn't that discourage the use of it?The reason I suggested no extra bans is I thought it would lead to more innovation. I guess I should have seen this coming and brought it up specifically in the other thread.


Personally I prefer having my side filled with 15 cards relevant to the mirror that allow me to make minor tweaks (not that I really ever use them) instead of filled with shit purely to stop OTKs and Burn. But I really don't like having games turn into seeing if I draw my sided in counters or that they ran into some mediocre hands to not lose.

Allen brought up Smash as an example of a game where they don't stuff without reason, however they do ban a ton of shit because it makes the game more competitive and arguably more fun. I don't think OTKs make the format more competitive and actively make it less fun.
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