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NAWCQ 2014

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great read would read again.

 

i actually know whats going on with deck discussion because i was once an avid contributor to the baby dragon/dead baby dragon format but stopped becoming a contributing member of dgz society after becoming disillusioned. and yes it actually is the influx of pojo people which has caused this to happen.

 

its not just the noobs too. even the veterans, so called pros, and moderators contribute to part of the problem. the audacity of those people who waltz in bashing you for bashing a retard and not contributing, all the while not contributing anything themselves as they sit behind their monitors white knighting the ignorant.

 

i keep wanting to write something regarding all this and dgz but then i just realized how pointless it'd be. so i never get the chance to do it. kudos to u for having the patience to continue to produce good content.

 

now we can be missed out on worlds brothers.

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»victor    6400

Another example. I saw Dalton watching Mike Steinman play top 64 and asked him what Mike was playing (I couldn't see far enough). Dalton said Mike was playing HAT with Bandit in it and said how everyone on the forums dismissed that as terrible and they just didn't bother trying to convince the forum people otherwise. I didn't follow the HAT thread so I don't know if this is true, but if it is, chalk another one up to bad discussion.

 

I just want to say this isn't true.

 

I haven't seen the Brady Bunch decklist, but following the Deck Discussion, Chris Gehring was pushing Kuribandit (and later Thunder Dragons) all along.

 

[quote name="ibGehring+" post="3767812" timestamp="1401760173"]
Kuribandit is amazing. Free card selection and mill is fantastic. I never regret using it. It does a lot of what I want. Searching for sanctum or iignition or just a key card is what I want.
[/quote]

 

[quote name="ibGehring+" post="3778338" timestamp="1403224060"]
I still use 3 Kuribandit. The card is way too good for this archetype. So much better than Hands in my opinion. Searching Sanctum or Soul Charge is so important for Artifacts. People really just don't seem to understand how it compliments the deck better than any other sub-theme they add to the deck.
[/quote]

 

And people did catch on, faliope, Moja Jojo, etc. were posting decklists with 3 Kuribandit. 

 

The person who won Denmark Nationals (Bentzen) was playing 3 Kuribandit, and was inspired by Gehring.

 

---------

 

I definitely agree, I am to blame, somewhat, regarding the white knight championing, while not being so pure myself.

 

There was no reason for me to post about (hey new card, Uranus) or LaDD (Photon Sanctuary + Majesty Fiend, early on) and break the context of good discussion, but I do hope my posts about Thunder Dragon and Soul Exchange were better recieved.

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Slashtap    2351

Oh, Allen Pennington: Inside man said that your performance at San Diego influenced the f/l list, I'm guessing he means you got Mind Augus limited.  That's a great way to bow out of Yugioh: take a card along with you.

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Vincent210    510
The mirror match conundrum is actually something I have been, for unrelated reasons, particularly interested in and looking over quite a lot recently. Assuming my current ideas on the subject are correct, once I have enough reasonable examples on which to build reasonable argumentation I can go ahead and be the person to explain that, but just to provide at least a concept:

Its kind of hard for any good combo deck to have a healthy mirror match because of the goals the player is given during play in order to win. The extreme fluidity of momentum in matches that many combo decks allow for (since actually resolving one of your set-ups can be enough to literally reverse the current card advantage and available options in a match. Madolches, while most likely not being a real example of a great format deck, having a lot of problems of their own, are a perfect example of, at least, a combo deck who, by resolving their combo, literally reverse the gamestate) means that you, as a player, are punished for allowing your opponent to play yugioh pretty much at all. It logically follows that the optimal strategy for victory is to allow your opponent to play as little yugioh as possible. This sounds like common sense, but when you look toward something like goat format or hat mirrors in comparison, where draw pass and subtle plays result in consistent tempo and then compare it to Sylvans going first in the mirror, establishing board, and then passing with veiler in hand, you can clearly see the underlying issue. Momentum is meant to play like tug-o-war. Smart approaches to the gamestate through subtle advances and optimization of read information and public knowledge. Combo decks are just way too fluid in the way they allow momentum to move between each other during mirror matches, which results in a lot of degenerate scenarios.

These are very roughy thoughts. I'm basically thinking out loud here, so I apologize if the idea I'm presenting is so vague or undeveloped as to be useless. Given time I hope to actually have a much better illustrated point to make, because I find this issue rather intruiging myself because its a pattern I've noticed quite consistently, having started this game back around TeleDaD.
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cjsparkin2    365

these are the players we need in this game 

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Matt Bishop    2373

Good read, well written.  I completely agree with you about the deck discussion threads.  I used to thrive on reading and discussing legitimate points about a deck, but now anything that is not accepted as kosher or gospel by a few select individuals is automatically dismissed as terrible or irrelevant, which most of the time is just simply not true.  By doing this, we ourselves are discouraging any progress, because people are almost afraid to post suggestions or opinions in fear that they will be ridiculed; the gorz in lsr example in the OP is the perfect example.  

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This was a fantastic read. Thank you for taking the time to post it. I've noticed the same things in various deck discussion threads, whether it be people being negged for suggesting crescent (because toon table is better!), or just people negging suggestions without even giving them a try because group think is better evidence than theory OR practice, I left well enough alone. While Mr Cash will always be my favourite writer, as far as this game is concerned, you're a close second. 

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Groot    525

Pos'd for the Magic player quotes

just the magic quotes? 

 

 

This entire wall of text is pure gold. 

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Samuel Pedigo    2207

Regarding the state of the Deck Discussion forums: I actually made a post some time back but decided not to hit reply. I saved it, though, and this seems like a good place to drop it:

 

I just read your other post. Don't worry, even though this isn't exactly related to this specific thread, it isn't about you so much as it is a general PSA:

 

 

If you want to have this "me against the world" mentality and don't care about your reputation, then good for you. It'll give you an edge, sure, but it won't be as good as the relationships you'd be able to forge if you weren't making enemies with everybody. By being on the "inside" of various Yu-Gi-Oh circles with other great players, you'll grow and learn far more. You want to talk theory? Like truly talk theory? You have to start by earning the respect of great players.

 

To be completely honest, DGz is just different these days. That's why you don't really see "stfu, do your homework, we're not going to spoonfeed you" much anymore. It's just accepted that's how it is now. Pros stopped posting the quality stuff a long time ago and the truly meaningful conversations don't happen on forums anymore (not that there wasn't always some level of information that didn't make its way on here). Really, here's what this (Deck Discussion) sub-forum is for, as I see it:

 

(a) What's ironic about all of this, these days, these Deck Discussion threads are largely about getting people up to speed on the basics of any given deck. So much for no spoonfeeding, huh?

(b) People come to monitor the "average Yu-Gi-Oh player", observe trends and see how they react to new ones creates by Jeff's Sylvan deck, or Hoban's Decree Rulers to stay ahead of the meta.

(c) Every now-and-then you'll have some quality sub-conversations, often generated by a "pro" coming in and asking for help from the "think tank". Patrick coming to the Dragon thread and trying to generate a conversation that might, at the very least, spark an idea for a solution to his problem.

(d) Keeping an eye out for players on the rise. Maybe I don't have the story straight and this is entirely inaccurate but the first example that comes to mind is Hoban taking Johnny Li under his wing last year. I am purely speculating on the exact ongoings, I'd say it was Johnny proving he had the ability to back up his theory on these forums by making Top 32 at YCS San Diego, a dual format dueling event.

 

So yeah. Guess the truth is out. (|:|)  I'm not sure if somebody else is going to get upset about me saying that, but it shouldn't actually be shocking to anybody that's been paying attention.

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Slashtap    2351

The mirror match conundrum is actually something I have been, for unrelated reasons, particularly interested in and looking over quite a lot recently. Assuming my current ideas on the subject are correct, once I have enough reasonable examples on which to build reasonable argumentation I can go ahead and be the person to explain that, but just to provide at least a concept:

Its kind of hard for any good combo deck to have a healthy mirror match because of the goals the player is given during play in order to win. The extreme fluidity of momentum in matches that many combo decks allow for (since actually resolving one of your set-ups can be enough to literally reverse the current card advantage and available options in a match. Madolches, while most likely not being a real example of a great format deck, having a lot of problems of their own, are a perfect example of, at least, a combo deck who, by resolving their combo, literally reverse the gamestate) means that you, as a player, are punished for allowing your opponent to play yugioh pretty much at all. It logically follows that the optimal strategy for victory is to allow your opponent to play as little yugioh as possible. This sounds like common sense, but when you look toward something like goat format or hat mirrors in comparison, where draw pass and subtle plays result in consistent tempo and then compare it to Sylvans going first in the mirror, establishing board, and then passing with veiler in hand, you can clearly see the underlying issue. Momentum is meant to play like tug-o-war. Smart approaches to the gamestate through subtle advances and optimization of read information and public knowledge. Combo decks are just way too fluid in the way they allow momentum to move between each other during mirror matches, which results in a lot of degenerate scenarios.

These are very roughy thoughts. I'm basically thinking out loud here, so I apologize if the idea I'm presenting is so vague or undeveloped as to be useless. Given time I hope to actually have a much better illustrated point to make, because I find this issue rather intruiging myself because its a pattern I've noticed quite consistently, having started this game back around TeleDaD.

 

I think you're on the money.  In as fewest words as possible, here is me reiterating what you're getting at while adding a bit of my own understanding:

Generally speaking, going off second lets you win.  This has been true about a ton of combo oriented mirrors, and is also true about some tiny interactions like who plays a field spell first/second.  Therefore, you are discouraged from going off first.  However, if you don't go off first, then you could just die.  Therefore, the best of both worlds is to go off first, and then flip one of those continuous cards that say, "You don't get to go off at all."  And as I alluded to in the OP, Konami is talking about further reducing the legal number of copies of these special little cards with infinity symbols on them.

 

So what sparked the whole discussion in the first place was someone came up to me (Idk if dgz or not) and started talking theory with me out of the blue.  I wasn't occupied so I had fun with it, and he just threw out the most random questions, which got me thinking about things like whether Yugioh is just two different games (some people play combo Yugioh and some people play grind Yugioh).  Anyway one question he threw out was: top 5 formats ever.  I forgot to throw this into the report itself but this was just another neat theme that made my weekend interesting.

 

My prepackaged answer is usually something along the lines of Baby Ruler, PHSW Plant, TeleDAD, Goat, Chaos Recruiter (with the last three decks in no particular order).  Now the rest of this stuff was all Pat's epiphany, I claim no credit.  I redirected the question at him before bed and he said (without hearing my own answer): Baby Ruler, PHSW Plant with no Wabbits allowed, Goat, Teledad..and then he went:

-Wait.  I'm pretty sure we only glorify Teledad because name players consistently topped.  But that was because they could afford the deck and steamrolled players who only owned 2 Destiny Draws in the mirror all day (plus playing better).  And he turned it back on me: I don't get that much out of Teledad.  Do you think it's good?

 

And after I mulled over this challenge to convention I said: I definitely learned a lot more while playing Teledad this year.  But I don't think it matches the hype Jae portrayed it at.  What if it just took an elevated position because they couldn't imagine anything beyond 2009?  They had fewer formats to compare it to.  (I mean, I could not have imagined something like Inzektor before they came out).  And could it be that the hype and the price tag and the name players all combined just immortalized it slightly beyond what it actually was?  It's like how paintings increase in value upon the artist's death.

 

So Pat mulled it over and proposed:

-Pretty sure Chaos Recruiter was not skillful.  Everything was a normal summon outside Cydra and you essentially played with a three card hand each turn.

 

"Sold."

 

-And if I'm going to even consider Teledad, why would I not consider the format after Baby Ruler above it?  And Wind-Ups.

 

"Oh, I looooove Mermails."

 

(and then he hits the inspirational spark)

 

-Hey, have you noticed that the best combo decks just had the most degenerate mirrors?  During +1 I topped because my 3 Gunde was just better than everyone else's deck, but when the format goes on too long and everyone copies it, it's over.  By the end of the format I never figured out a way to consistently win that mirror.

 

---

 

Alright just throwing that out there, an addendum to the OP, another of the seventy topics I raised that I'd be happy to discuss.  This was a weekend of a lot of thinking for me.  About life, the direction of Yugioh, career, past formats, current formats, overarching truths about all formats.  Reply to any issue I raised!  Someone still needs to answer my question about both guys kept in Dark Hole in the finals!

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Vincent210    510

Yeah. You're onto what I'm proposing. Cleaned up, it'd read;

 

Combo decks have shitty mirrors because the only consistent win strategy is to prevent them from playing yugioh. If you play yugioh first and then pass turn, and they get to play, your board gets broken and you die, unless they simply play poorly. If you play yugioh second, you risk getting answered before you can reach the aforementioned promised land and keeling over to a developed board with the following turn's push. That makes both of the expected opening scenarios bad yugioh, and the ideal solution that logic would divine (go first, and then sit on an anti-yugioh button) horrible ygo. Combo decks are generally bad yugioh vs one another.

 

Of course then you have Rulers and suddenly a format decided to nuke that trend from orbit by making a deck in which, when your established board died, you were still just as able to keep playing as you were beforehand. The Rulers being an almost equal resource in and out of the grave, and the key discover of Scarecrow is honestly what makes that a format to hold dear. We got to play some minimally grindy, high complexity ygo without a degenerate mirror.

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Slashtap    2351

Bless you Sam for saving that post.  I'm glad that these issues are getting into the open.  The rising duelist comment is both encouraging yet discouraging to read.  Encouraging because I've come so far from the old pojo/yvd/terrible theory days.  Discouraging because despite improving a lot since last year, I haven't topped since last year. =(
 
"If I had to choose, I'd rather have theory than results.  Results don't mean you're good." - Pat
"Yeah, but I want both. Hmph. >=(" -Jonneh
 
As for my exact story last year: My first two tops, no one was "over" me.  While I depended on several friends to play battle pack with me day and night and then constructed with me day and night (shoutouts to mark23 for converting me to Mermail and pulling me up to his caliber), we tested as equals (and I owe them the world because they weren't even GOING to San Diego, they learned Battle Pack just to get me ready for it).  I'm not going to go back over how I got through swiss; the report is online of course.  It was a very goat-like tournament day 1.  And then Baby Ruler (NAWCQ), Pat got me on 3 Sword and Puppet/Horus the night before, more because we were staying in the same room that night, not because I was under his wing (yet).  I think I understood that format to such an extent that we were just about equals.  He got 1st, but I didn't misplay in top cut, and I did better in swiss, so take from that what you will. If I'm completely honest though I think he passed me at Baby Ruler when all is said and done.
 
But after that, I wholeheartedly admit he took me under his wing and basically schooled me during each subsequent age lol.  He's strictly ahead of me in theory and practice and is a great and CONSTANT reminder that I need to get better and take responsibility every time I don't top.  Man I cannot shake my disappointment about this weekend.  Probably why I want to talk so much. =(

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Schism    982

I quit Yugioh for Magic after nationals two years ago. I would consider myself a decent Magic player considering how long i've been playing (My best finish currently is 32nd at an SCG Open). However I feel like the transition from either game to the other is harder than you think. I know some great magic players (People who have done well at SCG's GP's PTQ's etc.) who don't understand anything about Yugioh and vice versa. Korey Mcduffie winning nationals reminds me of Peter Sundholm getting 2nd at GP Vancouver earlier this year. He didn't play Magic for 15 years and ended up doing well in a bunch of other TCG's. Andrew Tenjum and Matt Hoey who previously played Yugioh are now doing really well at Magic. But not everybody can switch from one game and expect to be good at the other. To be honest I don't think I could go back to Yugioh and expect to do well at an event like Mcduffie did mainly because I've invested most of my time and energy into magic now. 

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Kanade    1595

Another fantastic piece. Side note I was one of the people who complimented you on your San Diego piece day two around when the first round of top cut was finishing up.

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Joe.    4951
I am 100% positive I could make the transition to MTG if I spent the time I use to spend on YGO. I follow MTG a lot since I enjoy watching the game played. But at the same rate - the same could be said otherwise - and proven by Korey.
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Junglebellz    10

This was another Johnny masterpiece, one the greatest pieces of art I have ever read. It wasn't another "blah blah" ego-inflating tournament report. This was an actual in-depth look at a person's experience at Nationals, almost to the point where it felt like I was there. Great read Johnny.

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»Turkey    1547

I am 100% positive I could make the transition to MTG if I spent the time I use to spend on YGO. I follow MTG a lot since I enjoy watching the game played. But at the same rate - the same could be said otherwise - and proven by Korey.

I've said this time and time again, being good at card games is mostly just game theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory). 

 

I am convinced anyone who understands game theory, as applied to card games, on a deep level can be good at any card game.

 

I really have nothing against Yugioh as a game (Konami, the community, R&D, tournament structure, and judging are separate issues) but I think it could be a lot more rewarding to good players if Yugioh had multiple competitive formats, especially a Limited format. The same concept applies; if you are good at general game theory, you will be good at any format you play. 

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Holy fuck dammit I needed to read this, you said everything I've been meaning to say but so much better than I ever could.

Also sam I know that post was originally intended for me, personally I think you should have posted it, it would have really helped me get out of the deep hole I'd dug myself there (although your other posts definitely helped a lot too). Idk if you care but I'm feeling much better for now, hopefully you guys won't see that side of me for a long time again. Dealing with mental illness is hard.

Anyway wanted to thank you for this article, you're definitely one of my favourite posters on here because you seem to treat everyone here with respect. Special mention goes to sam and victor too. Everytime I read a post made by one of you guys I'm always impressed and most of all inspired; one day I want to be as analytical and as good at the game as you guys. I know I have a lot of growing up to do, but just reading your posts makes me want to be the one writing them in a few years time.

Just, thank you for being so caring and taking the time to look over this community even when you are under appreciated. it really means a lot to some of us, and we definitely appreciate the time you've sacrificed for us and the effort you've put in to help us improve our game.
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Slashtap    2351

I am curious to know the statistics of yugioh champions and drop-out rates.

 

I mean obsessions just tear your away from your career in general.  I can't name specific names here because I'm referring to people EVERYBODY loves, including my personal friends, but if you step back and look at what the game has done to them, it's actually frightening.  Like just start naming in your head the people who are remembered for tops/rings in the game in recent years and look at what they've ended up doing.  Several quit school or took forever to finish.  Several turned to full time vending.  From a doolist's perspective their constant string of month to month vacations on the pro circuit is living the dream, but you have to wake up eventually.  Or think of it from the other side: how many players who tour the circuit also maintain work/life balance in a way that can truly be deemed healthy, and do not allow Yugioh to limit their fulfillment of their career potential?  Sam is the first on a very short list of folks I consider actually modelling this.  This thread was as much a letter to myself as it is to my fellow readers on that matter.  Because when all is said and done about the ushering in of the theory age, the evolution of the game, the things I've been pondering about the nature of card theory...it all comes back to reminding myself which "event" I'm really trying to win - one that isn't two days, but rather, four years.  I can't give you stats, and due to friendships, I won't give you names, but think through the list of name players, and decide for yourself how far Yugioh - or your own particular passion - will take you.  This is a question I am asking myself on the daily because I am constantly rethinking my response.  I know I want worlds.  I know I want a ring.  I know I want to put my brain on digital paper so that I can eventually leave without keeping an ounce of knowledge to myself.  But I don't want to concede certain parts of my life outside.  In-game isn't the only place I wrestle with paradoxes.

 

Oh and since no one has spoken up on the Dark Hole thing, I'm just going to assert that it was flat out incorrect to keep that card in.  I also heard Mind Control was just not dropped at all in the finals.  Huh...

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Gadiel_VaStar    231

One thing that I don't think you mentioned is: Variance

 

Every card game has variance, but it is shown on a wider scale especially in such a diverse format. One cannot decide an opening hand, and if the opponent has all the answers or opens amazing, there is not much one can do about it. Someone told me a long time ago, Yugioh is 1/3 Luck, 1/3 Skill, & 1/3 Deck. Luck is a huge factor that I think you are dismissing, and the deck choices. I think you mentioned rouge accounts for only 0.5%, but rouge this format is around ~10%-15% if you take the statistics from the European WCQ.

 

The same goes for mirror matches especially, whoever goes first or whoever draws better usually wins. The skill is deciding when to play what card, and when to save what card for what time, but even those can be non-factors when playing someone of equal or greater skill.

 

On Dark Hole/Mind Control. Those are generic outs, and generally good throughout the duel. HAT mirror is grindy, so a well-timed Dark Hole/Mind Control for XYZ can put you ahead and flat out win the match. I don't see how it can be a bad choice to keep in such a crucial game (The Finals).

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