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A Treatise Regarding Exarion Universe

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+Logic    2035
I agree with your general point that there are almost a dozen cards that have niches, and exarion makes them all nearly irrelevant.

exarion does 90% of what asura, skilled white, enraged battle ox, big shield gardna, etc. do;why play them all when exarion does all of them almost as well.


I disagree that the format is solved, but it's certainly the most explored.

My only question is if we should be having this discussion before or after the honor bans vs no honor ban format discusion. Obviously this is relevant because stein has the potential to be more defining than cydra.

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Jazz    4711
Really good read. Couldn't agree more about almost everything.

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+Urthor    10206

Like I've always felt the part where "Exarion makes these cards irrelevant" argument is pretty bad, either Exarion makes the game more skillful or less skillful, whether or not you can play your precious battle ox is irrelevant to that equation.  

 

But overall yea the fact Exarion makes scapegoat played less,and games end faster with its piercing, when Scapegoat is pretty close to 100% of the reason goat format is better than other formats, means Exarionless is much better.  

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Netko    6

Nicely explained.

But I have to ask,if the problem Exarion,or the fact that he's at 3?

In my group of friend we limited Exarion to 1,and what we noticed is he was "simmilar" to breaker,or tribe,in a sence that if you played him in a incorect time you'd lose a great monster,while your opponent still had 1 in the deck

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+Gemstone Mine    2583
I believe I've made a post about this before, but because of a quirk in ude rules, exarion universe was actually legal about 2 weeks before crv was . There was never actually a sjc during that time, and thus no format, so I actually agree with you that we should be playing exarionless, but still, I think it should be noted that was tournament legal about a week and a half before crv was
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+ACP+    33888

Like I've always felt the part where "Exarion makes these cards irrelevant" argument is pretty bad, either Exarion makes the game more skillful or less skillful, whether or not you can play your precious battle ox is irrelevant to that equation.  

 

But overall yea the fact Exarion makes scapegoat played less and games more aggro focused with its piercing, when Scapegoat is pretty close to 100% of the reason goat format is better than other formats, means Exarionless is much better.  

It's not about specific cards. If Enraged Battle Ox was never printed, goat format would be more or less just as good. It's about choices. Deck construction is a key skill in the game. So really, the argument is about skill. Anyone with a half a brain can figure out that multiple copies of Exarion Universe are optimal.

 

I agree with your general point that there are almost a dozen cards that have niches, and exarion makes them all nearly irrelevant.

exarion does 90% of what asura, skilled white, enraged battle ox, big shield gardna, etc. do;why play them all when exarion does all of them almost as well.


I disagree that the format is solved, but it's certainly the most explored.

My only question is if we should be having this discussion before or after the honor bans vs no honor ban format discusion. Obviously this is relevant because stein has the potential to be more defining than cydra.

Again, I said that Kris' list is a "soft solution." It's solved in the sense that there are no obvious counters to the strategy. I would be absolutely willing to consider arguments to the contrary.

 

Nicely explained.

But I have to ask,if the problem Exarion,or the fact that he's at 3?

In my group of friend we limited Exarion to 1,and what we noticed is he was "simmilar" to breaker,or tribe,in a sence that if you played him in a incorect time you'd lose a great monster,while your opponent still had 1 in the deck

Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though.

 

I believe I've made a post about this before, but because of a quirk in ude rules, exarion universe was actually legal about 2 weeks before crv was . There was never actually a sjc during that time, and thus no format, so I actually agree with you that we should be playing exarionless, but still, I think it should be noted that was tournament legal about a week and a half before crv was

This is wrong, and I addressed it in the OP.

 

Exarion Universe was released and legal on September 1st.

CRV was released on August 17th and legal on September 1st.

 

If Exarion Universe had been legal two weeks before CRV, then we would have seen Exarions being played at SJC Indianapolis on August 20th. We didn't.

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-L2theZ-    1623

This is wrong, and I addressed it in the OP.

Exarion Universe was released and legal on September 1st.
CRV was released on August 17th and legal on September 1st.

If Exarion Universe had been legal two weeks before CRV, then we would have seen Exarions being played at SJC Indianapolis on August 20th. We didn't.


This is wrong. At the time promos such as the tins were legal at any event as soon as you had your hands on any copies, and some people did obtain copies of Exarion before September 1st.

So there is some historical context for having Exarion legal, although I think the reality was in 2012 when Goat was taking off everyone was just like "hey Exarion is a cool card let's play with him".

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=2454672&postcount=17
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+Gemstone Mine    2583
No, it actually is right, because of a clause in ude rules that said all promos are legal when they are available, and the exarion tin became available places about the 23rd or so

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+Satchmo+    3201

 

This is wrong, and I addressed it in the OP.

Exarion Universe was released and legal on September 1st.
CRV was released on August 17th and legal on September 1st.

If Exarion Universe had been legal two weeks before CRV, then we would have seen Exarions being played at SJC Indianapolis on August 20th. We didn't.


This is wrong. At the time promos such as the tins were legal at any event as soon as you had your hands on any copies, and some people did obtain copies of Exarion before September 1st.

So there is some historical context for having Exarion legal, although I think the reality was in 2012 when Goat was taking off everyone was just like "hey Exarion is a cool card let's play with him".

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=2454672&postcount=17

 

From that same thread:
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=2457521&postcount=20

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+Gemstone Mine    2583
I'm not saying it's the basis of a case, but if we hard cap everything to anything legal before crv, exarion would be because it was legal probably as early as the 21st or so, and I def remember it being available on the 23rd

Ok so my dates are a tad inconsistent, shoot mr

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+ACP+    33888

Exarion was officially released on September 1st. UDE policy said that promos were legal upon official release. How is there any debate? Saying this there was two weeks where you could play Exarion but not CRV is straight up wrong.

 

How many of you even read the thread that you linked to? Some dude managed to get Exarion 4 days before release. Good for him. Yeah, your locals could've let you play Exarion before it legal for premier events. But it also could've let you play CRV before it was legal for premier events. Why would your locals (since yes, this argument is basically about locals) say that Exarion is legal but CRV isn't? I don't understand what point you guys are trying to make.

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-L2theZ-    1623

Exarion was officially released on September 1st. UDE policy said that promos were legal upon official release. How is there any debate? Saying this there was two weeks where you could play Exarion but not CRV is straight up wrong.

How many of you even read the thread that you linked to? Some dude managed to get Exarion 4 days before release. Good for him. Yeah, your locals could've let you play Exarion before it legal for premier events. But it also could've let you play CRV before it was legal for premier events. Why would your locals (since yes, this argument is basically about locals) say that Exarion is legal but CRV isn't? I don't understand what point you guys are trying to make.


Promos were legal whenever you got your hands on them, most notable being Stratos at SJC St. Louis.
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+ACP+    33888

Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

 

Don't forget that for non-premier events, CRV was legal on August 17th. Even if you had gotten Exarion Universe a week early and showed up to locals with it in your deck, you would've been playing against a bunch of people who had Cyber Dragon in their deck.

 

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

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Netko    6

"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."

 

The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.

Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku

At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

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-L2theZ-    1623

Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

The "official" release date of the magazine was sometime in March. Which is all irrelevant because promos being legal "upon release" meant when you got them you could use them.

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

My point is if somebody wants to argue that there did exist a time where Exarion would have been legal at a regional and CRV wasn't they can. I think it's a totally pointless thing to argue about compared to its impact on the format though.

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Catasterism    401

"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."

 

The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.

Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku

At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

 

I think a real problem is going to be, however, that even if putting Exarion to 1 were the optimal solution (and it probably isn't), it would be much harder to get people to agree to the houseruled F&L change of 1 Exarion than to simply exclude Exarion completely.

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+ACP+    33888

"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."

 

The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.

Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku

At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

All of these points are very vague. For example, how does 1 Exarion Universe keep certain cards in check?

More importantly, why bother entering custom format terrority, when 0 Exarion is already fine?

 

 

Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

The "official" release date of the magazine was sometime in March. Which is all irrelevant because promos being legal "upon release" meant when you got them you could use them.

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

My point is if somebody wants to argue that there did exist a time where Exarion would have been legal at a regional and CRV wasn't they can. I think it's a totally pointless thing to argue about compared to its impact on the format though.

 

Ok, which regional could you play Exarion Universe at but not CRV? There's basically a single day that this would've been slightly possible (8/27/2005), I can't find anything in the pojo archives that indicates that there were any regionals held on that date.

 

(And yes, it is pointless to argue about. But when people say things like, "Oh yeah, you could play Exarion for two weeks without CRV" I'm not just going to ignore it.)

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TFJ    630


"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."
 
The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.
Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku
At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

All of these points are very vague. For example, how does 1 Exarion Universe keep certain cards in check?

More importantly, why bother entering custom format terrority, when 0 Exarion is already fine?
 

 

Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

The "official" release date of the magazine was sometime in March. Which is all irrelevant because promos being legal "upon release" meant when you got them you could use them.

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

My point is if somebody wants to argue that there did exist a time where Exarion would have been legal at a regional and CRV wasn't they can. I think it's a totally pointless thing to argue about compared to its impact on the format though.
 
Ok, which regional could you play Exarion Universe at but not CRV? There's basically a single day that this would've been slightly possible (8/27/2005), I can't find anything in the pojo archives that indicates that there were any regionals held on that date.
 
(And yes, it is pointless to argue about. But when people say things like, "Oh yeah, you could play Exarion for two weeks without CRV" I'm not just going to ignore it.)
Right, acknowledge it is right, then go back to debating.

I don't see what point you are trying to make. There was never a tournament held, so it isn't a valid point? It is a point us all they are saying.
And you keep saying they are wrong.

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+ACP+    33888

What?

 

I don't know what you are trying to say.

 

I don't know what is so complicated.

 

There was never a TCG tournament is which Exarion Universe was legal, but CRV was not.

 

If you disagree, feel free to post a counterexample at any point in time.

 

Historical accuracy isn't about hypotheticals. It's about what actually happened.

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+ACP+    33888

Hey guys if I had gotten a TCG copy of Gorz in December 2008 and time traveled to 2005 it TECHNICALLY would've been legal in goat format!

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TFJ    630
You just said there was a single day it could have happened. Just because it didn't doesn't mean you are suddenly right and they are all wrong.

If you disagree that the was a 0% chance of it happening, sure you could argue with them. But right now you are just being dumb and saying because it never happened it was never legal.
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