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A Treatise Regarding Exarion Universe

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Recently, in the online goat format community, an issue has risen regarding whether to allow the card Exarion Universe in goat format. Luckily, people on both sides of the issue do not seem to feel strongly about it, so it has not caused a huge divide within the community. However, it is relevant, it is a complicated issue, and both sides of the argument have not attempted to make well thought out points.

 

Three Possible Goat Formats

 

There have always been three possible goat formats that people consider playing. There are other possible ones, but no one seems to be in favor of playing a goat format without The Lost Millenium for example, so those more obscure and less favored possible formats are not going to enter the argument for today.

 

The first possible format is without Exarion Universe or Cybernetic Revolution. This is the format that I favor. Historically speaking, SJC New Jersey, SJC Charlotte, US Nationals, SJC Seattle, and SJC Indianapolis were played with this format.

 

Then there’s the format with both Exarion Universe and Cybernetic Revolution. Historically speaking, SJC Boston was played with this format.

 

And that brings us to the last format, the one is appears to have the favor of the online community currently, goat format without Cybernetic Revolution and with Exarion Universe. Historically speaking, no premier events were played with this format. This begs the question, what’s up with that exactly?

 

Where Exarion Universe and Cybernetic Revolution Fit Into Yugioh History

 

One issue was that it was not clear if a format with Exarion Universe and without Cybernetic Revolution had actually ever existed in real life. Exarion Universe was first officially released in the TCG on September 1st, 2005. Cybernetic Revolution was first officially released in the TCG on August 17th, 2005. However, at this time, booster sets were not immediately legal upon their release. We know that SJC Indianapolis was held just three days later, on August 20th, and Cybernetic Revolution was not legal then.

 

Personally, I recall that booster sets were made legal two weeks after their official release. The UDE web archive confirms this: http://web.archive.org/web/20051026025152/http://www.upperdeckentertainment.com/yugioh/en/products.aspx

 

Interestingly enough, this would mean that Cybernetic Revolution would have been legal for premier tournament play on the exact same day that Exarion Universe was legal for premier tournament play.

 

Why Does This Matter?

 

Some would argue that it really doesn’t matter at all. In fact, I’d even say that that is a fair opinion to have. People do in fact have the right to play formats that never actually existed. However, for some, playing past formats has a nostalgic value, and they would prefer their formats to be historically accurate. This particularly applies to those who were actually playing competitive yugioh in 2005, but I realize that this is 2015 and that those people are a minority.

 

Now that DuelistGroundz.com’s retro format community is growing, we are beginning to delve into many retro formats, and we generally air on the side of historical accuracy. For example, it’s finally starting to become accepted that allowing OTK decks is more fair to the community. There are of course some exceptions. For example, I would advocate banning Crush Card Virus in the September 1, 2007 Perfect Circle format. This is because that I feel that Crush Card Virus adds significantly more luck to the format in such a way that it outweighs the need for historical accuracy (and really there's no way to be historically accurate in the strictest sense, unless we give only 1% of the players the ability to use the card).

 

Exarion Universe however goes in the opposite direction. Removing overpowered cards from the format in order to make it more fun or more skill-intensive is one thing. Adding cards to the format is another. Kris Perovic for example, once suggested experimenting with adding Effect Veiler, a card that was released in 2010, to goat format. No one took his suggestion seriously. The premise seemed ridiculous. But ironically enough, at the time he made that suggestion, we were all playing with Exarion Universe.

 

What Do We What Goats to Be Like?

 

This is really the first question that the community needs to answer before the discussing about Exarion Universe can even begin. A discussion needs to be opened in regards to what qualifies as a “better” goat format. In general there are two components of better: more skillful and more fun.

 

Goat Format is not necessarily the consensus favorite retro format of the community, but I feel that the people who play it do for very specific reasons. One of these reasons can be identified just by looking at the name of the format: Goat Control. It wasn’t named the Airknight Aggro format or the Tsuku Lock format. One of the defining characteristics or the format is control decks that revolved around the card Scapegoat. But why does this make for an enjoyable format? A part of this is the snail's pace that the games were played at. With many turns and often many decisions to make on each turn, this makes for a very skillful game. While we’re still playing a game of Yugioh, not chess, games were fought over attrition, and players had opportunities to play tight and come back from opening hands that were more powerful than theirs. This was in large part due to the card Scapegoat. The card was chainable and could single-handedly wall the opponent out of more than 3000 points of damage, and a followup Metamorphosis could completely re-stabilize the board. We want this to be an aspect of the format.

 

We want Goat Control to emphasize very precise and deliberate play. We want Goat Control to be about planning ahead. We want Goat Control to reward those who don’t squander their advantage and are able to claw back into the game from behind.

 

Not only do we play Goat Format to reward duelists with tight, technical play, we also want it to reward those with good deck construction fundamentals as well. We don’t want to play a 100% solved format. Like technical play, which is about players gaining slow incremental advantages over each other, deck construction should also emphasize these small edges. While technical play may emphasize the conservation of the staple power cards, deck construction should reward those who find the small but useful tech for a given field. Whether it’s those who play Mystic Tomato in a field full of Dekoichis, or those who decide to play the third Sakuretsu Armor as a hedge against aggro, every card in your deck should have a reason behind it, and lists should be slightly evolving from month to month.

 

What Does Exarion Do To The Format?

 

First and foremost, it is a counter to Scapegoat. This isn’t inherently a bad thing; counters to cards should exist. However, when you compare Exarion Universe to other counters that exist to Scapegoat, you’ll start to see a lot of differences.

 

The other playable counters to Scapegoat in the format are Airknight Parshath, Asura Priest, King Tiger Wanghu, and Enraged Battle Ox. Airknight Parshath and Asura Priest are the two that can be played in a standard goat list, whereas King Tiger Wanghu and Enraged Battle Ox are build around cards.

 

Airknight Parshath is in some sense similar to Exarion Universe. It has similar stats. It has trample. It’s chaos-typed. Of course the one glaring difference is the fact that Airknight Parshath requires a tribute. While Airknight Parshath can bury the opponent in card advantage if it goes unchecked for several turns, it inherently requires more investment and setup. Specifically, it requires a tribute. If you’re tributing for it, you want that tribute to be either a floater or a 0/0 Thousand-Eyes Restrict. Otherwise you want to discard it and revive it. Even if you do manage to minimize the investment required, you still aren’t happy if it just gets hit by a Sakuretsu Armor. Even if your attack does get through, the tables can be turned instantly if your opponent has Snatch Steal. Airknight Parshath is the definition of high risk, high reward. It’s a very powerful card, but it demands that you know how to use it in order to get mileage out of it. The tribute that is attached to it makes it play very differently than Exarion Universe in practice. If you’re a goat control player packing three copies of Scapegoat, you’re not going to feel bad about it if your opponent just has two copies of Airknight.

 

Asura Priest of course has the issue that it’s a spirit monster. People already want to be playing two copies of Tsukuyomi, and spirit monsters tend to clog hands. Asura Priest is great at getting through some incremental damage but at the cost of not actually developing your board. While I don’t often like to use the word “tempo” in the context of Yugioh, the difference between cards like Exarion Universe and Asura Priest is all tempo. I can summon an Exarion Universe, attack, and then next turn attack with Exarion Universe again, but also set Magician of Faith. Now my opponent is left with two very important monsters that they have to deal with. Asura Priest restricts you to either do one or the other.

 

King Tiger Wanghu and Enraged Battle Ox don’t even deserve separate discussions from each other. In fact, they often belong in the same deck. Anti-Meta decks are great for most Yugioh formats. Especially when they don’t even beat the meta more than 60% of the time. Enraged Battle Ox is weak to Tsukuyomi. King Tiger Wangnu demands that you build around what is on the surface a symmetric ability. These of cards require an opportunity cost. If I want to counter the Scapegoat/Metamorphosis/Black Luster Soldier deck, I can’t run those cards myself. That alone is enough to dissuade most people from making that kind of commitment.

 

Exarion Universe however, doesn’t require itself to be built around. It doesn’t cost you a monster or your board development. It’s chaos-typed. It functions well on both offense and defense. Losing 400 attack for trample is barely even a cost. We’re talking about a card that has almost no opportunity cost. As goat format became more explored, Exarion Universe went from “pretty good” to ubiquitous. I’ll now address the elephant in the room. This, specifically, is what Exarion Universe does to the format:

 

wbRc7PP.png

 

The main difference between Exarion goats and Exarion-less goats is the fact that Scapegoat is actively bad in the Exarion goat metagame. Scapegoat goes from the best defensive card in the format to just a card that sets up Metamorphosis plays. I can tell you one of the main differences between Exarion goats and Exarion-less goats is that Exarion goat games end a lot faster. I’m talking both in terms of the turn that the game actually ends but also the turn that one player gains insurmountable advantage.

 

A primary issue here is the fact that Exarion can often get in free, early damage that other monsters in the format cannot really do. Protecting your life points in goats is very crucial, the card Scapegoat plays a huge role in this, and Exarion Universe completely undermines that in a way that no one other card in the format does.

 

My best of 7 match vs Kris Perovic with this deck is very non-representative of the actual theoretical matchup between our decks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gULz2PxYHRU. By that I mean that Kris probably should’ve crushed me 4-1 or 4-2. He played better and had the better deck. In general, I feel that because of the fact that damage is easier to inflict in a format with Exarion, the games are inherently higher variance. It’s easier to steal games with Ring of Destruction or Black Luster Soldier. I also feel that since Exarion Universe is a very scary and usually aggressive monster, it demands that players run multiple Sakuretsu Armor. This leads to gamestates being simplified faster, where topdecking comes more into play. Having watched my games with Kris, I notice that luck played a bigger role than I would’ve expected initially, particularly in the games that I won.

 

Props go to Kris Perovic, as I think he is really the first person to soft-solve a goat format. Assuming that the sideboard was constructed appropriately for a field that includes OTKs, I believe that we’re looking at one of the only goat lists possible that could argue to have a 50%+ matchup versus every other possible deck in the field. Have solutions been proposed to the boogeyman of the format? Of course. But if anything, they only further emphasize the issues with the format.

 

ftqGqgk.png

 

Yes folks, that’s one Scapegoat. One. Does this deck beat Kris’s list 51% of the time? Quite possibly. Let’s move on.

 

Flaws In The Design of Exarion Universe

 

Something that I’ve noticed is that, in an Exarion-less format, decklists are far more varied, and monster lineups in particular require a lot more thought. Let me start with what consider the skeleton to be for your average good-stuff Exarion-less goat deck.

 

Monsters: 10

1 Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

1 Airknight Parshath

1 Sangan

1 Sinister Serpent

1 Breaker the Magical Warrior

1 Tribe-Infecting Virus

2 Magician of Faith

2 Tsukuyomi

 

Spells: 15

2 Book of Moon

2 Nobleman of Crossout

2 Scapegoat

2 Metamorphosis

1 Pot of Greed

1 Graceful Charity

1 Delinquent Duo

1 Heavy Storm

1 Mystical Space Typhoon

1 Snatch Steal

1 Premature Burial

 

Traps: 5

1 Mirror Force

1 Torrential Tribute

1 Ring of Destruction

1 Call of the Haunted

1 Sakuretsu Armor

 

Some of these cards are debatable. Is the second copy of Tsukuyomi 100% necessary? Is at least one Sakuretsu Armor 100% necessary? I would argue yes, but if you remove them both it doesn’t change the point that I’m trying to make. In most cases, I would argue for playing 17 monsters and 23 spells/traps. This means that 59% of our monster lineup will be composed of staples, and 87% of our spell/trap lineup will be composed of staples. Because of this, correctly constructing your monster lineup involves a lot more thought than your spell/trap lineup. We can't do anything to make the spell/trap lineup construction require more thought, but we can at least attempt to preserve the skill of the monster lineup construction.

 

Here are a list of cards that I have observed to be effective in your average Exarion-less goat deck that I would argue are almost entirely unplayable in the world of Exarion Universe:
- Blade Knight
- Asura Priest
- D.D. Assailant
- Mystic Tomato
- Big Shield Gardna
- Apprentice Magician
- Skilled White Magician
- Dekoichi, the Battlechanted Locomotive
- Spirit Reaper
- Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer

It is also debatable whether D.D. Warrior Lady is playable in a format with Exarion Universe. Personally, I still play it, but the community seems to mostly disagree with my assessment. If you want, you can add that to the list too.

 

Overall, Exarion Universe adds a lot of uniformity to the way that decks are constructed. If you look at Kris’s list, there is not much to debate changing. If someone told me to cut one of his monsters for Blade Knight or Spirit Reaper, I would call them crazy. In the case of some of these monsters, it’s because there are just worse aggressive options than Exarion Universe (Blade Knight, Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer, Asura Priest, D.D. Assailant). In the case of Skilled White Magician, it’s because it’s a worse defensive option. For others like Apprentice Magician and Dekoichi, the Battlechanted Locomotive, it’s because they are just not as strong in the context of the format, and there is an opportunity cost to adding these cards to your deck. In the case of Spirit Reaper, it just gets hard-countered by Exarion Universe.

 

Interestingly, Exarion Universe compounds the issue of monster lineup deck construction by making Magical Merchant a near-staple, which might not be obvious at first. This is because Thousand-Eyes Restrict is great vs Exarion Universe, but Scapegoat is very poor against it. Because of that, we see that Magical Merchant is completely necessary in the optimal goat control list.

 

There’s another key design flaw to Exarion Universe that I think almost everyone is overlooking. The best counter to Exarion Universe is Exarion Universe. I’m not talking about a hard counter here. I don’t mean to say that the second person to summon an Exarion Universe wins the game. I also don’t mean to say that having an Exarion Universe of your own in the presence of your opponent’s Exarion Universe is better than having a Snatch Steal (although if your opponent has Book of Moon, it actually is better). I’m really referencing to the dominant stats of Exarion Universe that monsters other than itself cannot boast. For example, I would argue that Exarion Universe is better vs Kris’ stock list than Berserk Gorilla or Gravekeeper’s Spy. This is due to their respective stats. Berserk Gorilla gets killed by Tsukuyomi and gets walled by Scapegoat. Gravekeeper’s Spy doesn’t pressure the opponent. This is problematic, because it’s optional to play 2 or 3 copies of Exarion Universe regardless of the rest of the field. In game theory, we would call this is a Nash equilibrium. This is the opposite of the predator/prey relationship that we observed between Spirit Reaper and Gold, Wu-Lord of Dark World in 2006, where the correct number of each depended upon the metagame composition. In Magic: The Gathering, we had the same problem after Bloodbraid Elf rotated out of standard, where the best counter to Jace was another Jace. This type of conundrum leads to stagnant metagames. Given that we would like to play goat format for many years to come, it would be preferable to avoid this, because metagame stagnation generally leads to dwindling interest in the format.

 

Some people might be thinking ahead of me and want to approach the issue differently. Rather than play a format without Exarion Universe, why not just introduce a better Exarion counter to the format? Perhaps, one that outclasses Exarion Universe’s stats, but doesn’t die to Tsukuyomi? What if it also out-tempo’d Exarion Universe as well? In general, I would advocate against this kind of arms race (you might just replace your old problem with a new one), but I do want to let you know that there is an obvious solution, if that’s the kind of solution that you seek:

 

CyberDragon-CRV-EN-SR-1E.jpg
 

The Bottom Line

 

And thus I conclude that goat format with Exarion Universe and without Cybernetic Revolution is the worst of the possible goat formats.

 

There are two good reasons to include a card in a retro format

1. It was actually a part of that particular format

2. You feel that the addition of this card makes the format significantly more skillful or enjoyable

 

Exarion Universe satisfies neither of these. Therefore, I really feel that the Exarion Universe supporters do not have a leg to stand on in this argument.

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thank you for summing up my feelings in one giant post and providing what is definitely a good read 

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I agree with your general point that there are almost a dozen cards that have niches, and exarion makes them all nearly irrelevant.

exarion does 90% of what asura, skilled white, enraged battle ox, big shield gardna, etc. do;why play them all when exarion does all of them almost as well.


I disagree that the format is solved, but it's certainly the most explored.

My only question is if we should be having this discussion before or after the honor bans vs no honor ban format discusion. Obviously this is relevant because stein has the potential to be more defining than cydra.
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Really good read. Couldn't agree more about almost everything.
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Yeah, I never really understood why people played Exarion goats, but never really cared enough to say anything about it either. Good read, Allen.

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Like I've always felt the part where "Exarion makes these cards irrelevant" argument is pretty bad, either Exarion makes the game more skillful or less skillful, whether or not you can play your precious battle ox is irrelevant to that equation.  

 

But overall yea the fact Exarion makes scapegoat played less,and games end faster with its piercing, when Scapegoat is pretty close to 100% of the reason goat format is better than other formats, means Exarionless is much better.  

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Nicely explained.

But I have to ask,if the problem Exarion,or the fact that he's at 3?

In my group of friend we limited Exarion to 1,and what we noticed is he was "simmilar" to breaker,or tribe,in a sence that if you played him in a incorect time you'd lose a great monster,while your opponent still had 1 in the deck

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I believe I've made a post about this before, but because of a quirk in ude rules, exarion universe was actually legal about 2 weeks before crv was . There was never actually a sjc during that time, and thus no format, so I actually agree with you that we should be playing exarionless, but still, I think it should be noted that was tournament legal about a week and a half before crv was
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Like I've always felt the part where "Exarion makes these cards irrelevant" argument is pretty bad, either Exarion makes the game more skillful or less skillful, whether or not you can play your precious battle ox is irrelevant to that equation.  

 

But overall yea the fact Exarion makes scapegoat played less and games more aggro focused with its piercing, when Scapegoat is pretty close to 100% of the reason goat format is better than other formats, means Exarionless is much better.  

It's not about specific cards. If Enraged Battle Ox was never printed, goat format would be more or less just as good. It's about choices. Deck construction is a key skill in the game. So really, the argument is about skill. Anyone with a half a brain can figure out that multiple copies of Exarion Universe are optimal.

 

I agree with your general point that there are almost a dozen cards that have niches, and exarion makes them all nearly irrelevant.

exarion does 90% of what asura, skilled white, enraged battle ox, big shield gardna, etc. do;why play them all when exarion does all of them almost as well.


I disagree that the format is solved, but it's certainly the most explored.

My only question is if we should be having this discussion before or after the honor bans vs no honor ban format discusion. Obviously this is relevant because stein has the potential to be more defining than cydra.

Again, I said that Kris' list is a "soft solution." It's solved in the sense that there are no obvious counters to the strategy. I would be absolutely willing to consider arguments to the contrary.

 

Nicely explained.

But I have to ask,if the problem Exarion,or the fact that he's at 3?

In my group of friend we limited Exarion to 1,and what we noticed is he was "simmilar" to breaker,or tribe,in a sence that if you played him in a incorect time you'd lose a great monster,while your opponent still had 1 in the deck

Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though.

 

I believe I've made a post about this before, but because of a quirk in ude rules, exarion universe was actually legal about 2 weeks before crv was . There was never actually a sjc during that time, and thus no format, so I actually agree with you that we should be playing exarionless, but still, I think it should be noted that was tournament legal about a week and a half before crv was

This is wrong, and I addressed it in the OP.

 

Exarion Universe was released and legal on September 1st.

CRV was released on August 17th and legal on September 1st.

 

If Exarion Universe had been legal two weeks before CRV, then we would have seen Exarions being played at SJC Indianapolis on August 20th. We didn't.

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This is wrong, and I addressed it in the OP.

Exarion Universe was released and legal on September 1st.
CRV was released on August 17th and legal on September 1st.

If Exarion Universe had been legal two weeks before CRV, then we would have seen Exarions being played at SJC Indianapolis on August 20th. We didn't.


This is wrong. At the time promos such as the tins were legal at any event as soon as you had your hands on any copies, and some people did obtain copies of Exarion before September 1st.

So there is some historical context for having Exarion legal, although I think the reality was in 2012 when Goat was taking off everyone was just like "hey Exarion is a cool card let's play with him".

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=2454672&postcount=17
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No, it actually is right, because of a clause in ude rules that said all promos are legal when they are available, and the exarion tin became available places about the 23rd or so
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This is wrong, and I addressed it in the OP.

Exarion Universe was released and legal on September 1st.
CRV was released on August 17th and legal on September 1st.

If Exarion Universe had been legal two weeks before CRV, then we would have seen Exarions being played at SJC Indianapolis on August 20th. We didn't.


This is wrong. At the time promos such as the tins were legal at any event as soon as you had your hands on any copies, and some people did obtain copies of Exarion before September 1st.

So there is some historical context for having Exarion legal, although I think the reality was in 2012 when Goat was taking off everyone was just like "hey Exarion is a cool card let's play with him".

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=2454672&postcount=17

 

From that same thread:
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=2457521&postcount=20

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I'm not saying it's the basis of a case, but if we hard cap everything to anything legal before crv, exarion would be because it was legal probably as early as the 21st or so, and I def remember it being available on the 23rd

Ok so my dates are a tad inconsistent, shoot mr
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Exarion was officially released on September 1st. UDE policy said that promos were legal upon official release. How is there any debate? Saying this there was two weeks where you could play Exarion but not CRV is straight up wrong.

 

How many of you even read the thread that you linked to? Some dude managed to get Exarion 4 days before release. Good for him. Yeah, your locals could've let you play Exarion before it legal for premier events. But it also could've let you play CRV before it was legal for premier events. Why would your locals (since yes, this argument is basically about locals) say that Exarion is legal but CRV isn't? I don't understand what point you guys are trying to make.

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Exarion was officially released on September 1st. UDE policy said that promos were legal upon official release. How is there any debate? Saying this there was two weeks where you could play Exarion but not CRV is straight up wrong.

How many of you even read the thread that you linked to? Some dude managed to get Exarion 4 days before release. Good for him. Yeah, your locals could've let you play Exarion before it legal for premier events. But it also could've let you play CRV before it was legal for premier events. Why would your locals (since yes, this argument is basically about locals) say that Exarion is legal but CRV isn't? I don't understand what point you guys are trying to make.


Promos were legal whenever you got your hands on them, most notable being Stratos at SJC St. Louis.
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Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

 

Don't forget that for non-premier events, CRV was legal on August 17th. Even if you had gotten Exarion Universe a week early and showed up to locals with it in your deck, you would've been playing against a bunch of people who had Cyber Dragon in their deck.

 

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

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"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."

 

The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.

Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku

At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

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Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

The "official" release date of the magazine was sometime in March. Which is all irrelevant because promos being legal "upon release" meant when you got them you could use them.

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

My point is if somebody wants to argue that there did exist a time where Exarion would have been legal at a regional and CRV wasn't they can. I think it's a totally pointless thing to argue about compared to its impact on the format though.
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"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."

 

The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.

Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku

At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

 

I think a real problem is going to be, however, that even if putting Exarion to 1 were the optimal solution (and it probably isn't), it would be much harder to get people to agree to the houseruled F&L change of 1 Exarion than to simply exclude Exarion completely.

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"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."

 

The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.

Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku

At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

All of these points are very vague. For example, how does 1 Exarion Universe keep certain cards in check?

More importantly, why bother entering custom format terrority, when 0 Exarion is already fine?

 

 

Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

The "official" release date of the magazine was sometime in March. Which is all irrelevant because promos being legal "upon release" meant when you got them you could use them.

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

My point is if somebody wants to argue that there did exist a time where Exarion would have been legal at a regional and CRV wasn't they can. I think it's a totally pointless thing to argue about compared to its impact on the format though.

 

Ok, which regional could you play Exarion Universe at but not CRV? There's basically a single day that this would've been slightly possible (8/27/2005), I can't find anything in the pojo archives that indicates that there were any regionals held on that date.

 

(And yes, it is pointless to argue about. But when people say things like, "Oh yeah, you could play Exarion for two weeks without CRV" I'm not just going to ignore it.)

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"Your question doesn't make sense. It's trivially obvious that a format in which Exarion is restricted to one would be better than a format where it is unlimited, but the fact that that's the case doesn't mean that Exarion isn't the problem. The difference between Exarion and a card like Breaker or Tribe is that those cards are very powerful in specific situations and not so good in others, where Exarion is just good virtually all the time. A zero Exarion format is definitive better than a one Exarion format though."
 
The changes you listed that Exarion made to the format is a result of people having to handle multiple copies of him,not 1.
Exarion at 1 is far from perfect if we view him from the perpective of the whole format,aggro/gravekeepers/monarch don't care that much about him,the format gives alot of answeres to him in the form of smashing ground,dd.warrior lady/assailant/berserk gorila/extra saku
At 1 he'd keep certain cards in check from being used carelessly,making you reconsider the value of your card/keeping an out for him.

All of these points are very vague. For example, how does 1 Exarion Universe keep certain cards in check?

More importantly, why bother entering custom format terrority, when 0 Exarion is already fine?
 

 

Stratos was released to Shonen Jump subscribers on February 20th, 2007. SJC St. Louis was on on February 27th, 2007.

The "official" release date of the magazine was sometime in March. Which is all irrelevant because promos being legal "upon release" meant when you got them you could use them.

My point is that there never existed a TCG yugioh tournament where Exarion Universe was legal and Cyber Dragon wasn't. It goes for both premier and non-premier events.

My point is if somebody wants to argue that there did exist a time where Exarion would have been legal at a regional and CRV wasn't they can. I think it's a totally pointless thing to argue about compared to its impact on the format though.
 
Ok, which regional could you play Exarion Universe at but not CRV? There's basically a single day that this would've been slightly possible (8/27/2005), I can't find anything in the pojo archives that indicates that there were any regionals held on that date.
 
(And yes, it is pointless to argue about. But when people say things like, "Oh yeah, you could play Exarion for two weeks without CRV" I'm not just going to ignore it.)
Right, acknowledge it is right, then go back to debating.

I don't see what point you are trying to make. There was never a tournament held, so it isn't a valid point? It is a point us all they are saying.
And you keep saying they are wrong.
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What?

 

I don't know what you are trying to say.

 

I don't know what is so complicated.

 

There was never a TCG tournament is which Exarion Universe was legal, but CRV was not.

 

If you disagree, feel free to post a counterexample at any point in time.

 

Historical accuracy isn't about hypotheticals. It's about what actually happened.

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Hey guys if I had gotten a TCG copy of Gorz in December 2008 and time traveled to 2005 it TECHNICALLY would've been legal in goat format!

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You just said there was a single day it could have happened. Just because it didn't doesn't mean you are suddenly right and they are all wrong.

If you disagree that the was a 0% chance of it happening, sure you could argue with them. But right now you are just being dumb and saying because it never happened it was never legal.
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