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SleepyHallo

Best tier 0 format?

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SleepyHallo    4

Tier 0 formats are often uninteresting & make the game less fun. However, it's hard to outright deny that tier 0 formats have been interesting in the past. What are some of your favorites? 2011's tier 0 is the most iconic tier 0 format for myself, since it was when I began teaching myself about the metagame. I was 11 at the time, however, so it's hard to detail. Wind-up tier 0 is the most memorable for me. Likely because Tour Guide was at 3 & it got to an absurd price. 

 

 

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Jazz    5322
26 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

make the game less fun

 

Define fun

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Best? none they were all terrible

 

Most Lolsworthy? RulerBook format.

 

no matter which side you played, you did the following.

 

Dump entire hand for shenanigans

replenish it at end phase

 

 

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SleepyHallo    4
18 minutes ago, Jazz said:

Define fun

Literally just being able to play the game? Did you play the game last November when SPYRAL dropped & nothing else could compete? One-sided games are disappointing & boring games.

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Jazz    5322
17 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

Literally just being able to play the game? Did you play the game last November when SPYRAL dropped & nothing else could compete? One-sided games are disappointing & boring games.

 

what makes tier 0 mirrors not fun?

 

i think if you're trying to compete in a tier 0 format with a tier 2 deck you're just a fucking idiot and it's you're actively avoiding the most fun option available to you (the tier 0 mirror) so the blame is all on you for being a scrub

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SleepyHallo    4
1 minute ago, Jazz said:

what makes tier 0 mirrors not fun?

 

i think if you're trying to compete in a tier 0 format with a tier 2 deck you're just a fucking idiot and it's you're actively avoiding the most fun option available to you (the tier 0 mirror) so the blame is all on you for being a scrub

There are two things wrong with this post:

 

#1: Every player should be allowed to play this game without scrutiny for using cards they personally enjoy using for whatever reason; whether they like the cards because they're good or because they just like the artwork & style of the cards. This is a game above anything else. Yes, obviously some cards are better than others. And obviously match-ups against cards from different eras don't go so well very often. Games are supposed to be fun though; win or lose. It's neither player's fault when a match-up isn't fun. Neither of them is wrong for having fun for different reasons. Personally, I don't care if I win or lose, so long as I get to play using my favorite cards. I just want a good game. Your idea of fun is very obviously winning & using what cards are available to you at the time to do so. That's fine, but you should respect that not everybody cares about using the latest & greatest cards.

 

#2: You're assuming that because I don't have fun in tier 0 formats, I'm a "scrub" and I think that what I'm using is going to win me games consistently. I'm fully aware that what I'm using will not win me every single game & I know very well that there are much better decks I could be using to win me games consistently, but I don't care about winning. I play for fun because I just like Yu-gi-oh!...lol. 

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Jazz    5322
19 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

There are two things wrong with this post:

 

#1: Every player should be allowed to play this game without scrutiny for using cards they personally enjoy using for whatever reason; whether they like the cards because they're good or because they just like the artwork & style of the cards. This is a game above anything else. Yes, obviously some cards are better than others. And obviously match-ups against cards from different eras don't go so well very often. Games are supposed to be fun though; win or lose. It's neither player's fault when a match-up isn't fun. Neither of them is wrong for having fun for different reasons. Personally, I don't care if I win or lose, so long as I get to play using my favorite cards. I just want a good game. Your idea of fun is very obviously winning & using what cards are available to you at the time to do so. That's fine, but you should respect that not everybody cares about using the latest & greatest cards.

 

#2: You're assuming that because I don't have fun in tier 0 formats, I'm a "scrub" and I think that what I'm using is going to win me games consistently. I'm fully aware that what I'm using will not win me every single game & I know very well that there are much better decks I could be using to win me games consistently, but I don't care about winning. I play for fun because I just like Yu-gi-oh!...lol. 

 

This post is contradictory. If you didn't care about winning, you wouldn't care that your personal favorite deck theme can't compete in the current meta. You'd just play casual games against friends and agree not to play the tier 0 deck. You wouldn't go to tournaments or play competitive games with any real stakes at all.

 

You're allowed to play whatever you want, the problem arises when you show up to a tournament and whine about being unable to compete when you purportedly don't even care about competing.

 

And you never defined "fun". You could define fun as "a format where being good at deck building is rewarded", or "a format where making the right metagame calls is rewarded" or "a format where in game decision making is rewarded". If you weighted it heavily to the third factor, a tier 0 format could be considered incredibly fun provided the mirror match was of high quality.

 

You are a scrub by the definition of being somebody who complains about being unable to compete yet isn't even trying to compete. You're trying to fit the game to your personal preferences instead of discarding your personal preferences and treating the game like a puzzle to solve.

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I'm coming from a slightly different perspective than you clearly but Zoo Format was awesome. It was very much a skillful format in both deckbuilding as well as play. To me, in order for a format to truly be enjoyable, it needs to have an innate challenge that tests your skill. To me to put it in literature terms you want your format to be mindless drivel like you might find on a book rack at the Dollar General. I want my format to be a well-written novel that is well on it's way to becoming a classic. Mindless drivel might be fun in that it's not taxing on the brain but it just gets boring after awhile. In the same fashion, you might say a book I consider to be awful mindless drivel shouldn't be called a bad book just because you enjoy it. But should I stop saying I prefer and better enjoy a good intelligent novel and consider lesser works bad just because you can't or don't want to put the effort in to consume works on the same level with me?

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SleepyHallo    4
20 minutes ago, Jazz said:

This post is contradictory. If you didn't care about winning, you wouldn't care that your personal favorite deck theme can't compete in the current meta.

I don't care about winning; that's why I use the cards that I do. My "Personal Favorite Deck" is just a compilation of my favorite cards. For me, when I'm putting together a deck, I like for there to be a certain theme of my own going with the artworks; as crazy as that sounds. I have "Mark of the Rose" & "Xiangke Magician" in the same deck because I like how it looks in my head. I don't use decks without "HalloHallo" because it's cute & it represents a lot to me. I don't ever put in cards that I don't like just for the sake of having them to win because I don't care about winning in the end; I just want to play the game & I want to have a good game.

 

I know you're going to argue "But if you don't care about winning, you aren't competing!!" Well, playing be default is competing. I believe whole-heartedly that competing is giving your all with everything you've got. YOU. Not the format's most notorious combo, nor the E-heroes you use because you think you're Jaden. lol I mean what YOU want to use & what YOU want to win with. All of it begins with you.

 

It's not very sportsmanlike to tell other people how to compete or even what to compete with. Everybody should compete in their own way. Their aim above all though should be to have fun, because it's a game. It's a game before anything. I compete with my favorite cards because that's how I play. It's a game & you needn't take it seriously. 

 

I've already defined "fun"- but I'll repeat myself. Fun is a game where either player could win. The state is not one-sided & both players did very well in playing the game. If a game was fun, does it really matter how bad one or the other's cards were? If both of them did well, it doesn't matter. 

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Punka I love you. You're like a parody of a caricature of a parody and you don't even realize

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I have to say the copypasta potential is strong with this one. All in all pretty good thread you got going here Punka

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SleepyHallo    4

Tyranno plz who is the "Punka" fellow?? Um... I enjoyed your input on Zoo format, but I've never played against full-power zoodiac cards. It doesn't seem like it can do very much now with Ratpier at 1 & both Drident/Broadbull banned. Did you play Zoodiac? What did you like about the cards?

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12 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

Tyranno plz who is the "Punka" fellow?? Um... I enjoyed your input on Zoo format, but I've never played against full-power zoodiac cards. It doesn't seem like it can do very much now with Ratpier at 1 & both Drident/Broadbull banned. Did you play Zoodiac? What did you like about the cards?

Yeah, Zoo is deader than a doornail. It wasn't so much the cards themselves but the flexibility the Zoo engine as a whole provided. You could splash it in the worst deck and it would become infinitely better. (X-Saber Zoodiac actually topped once and I think Madolche Zoo was a thing in the OCG). Even in a pure build or alternative varients with Master Peace or Kaijus there was a lot of room for creative and yet competitive card choice innovations. The mirror matches provided a back and forth in play that hadn't been seen in the highest levels of play in a long time. 

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+Mascis    4553

image.png

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Jazz    5322

Stop writing in green holy crap

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1 minute ago, Jazz said:

Stop writing in green holy crap

A Punka by any other name is still a Punka

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Jazz    5322
1 hour ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

I don't care about winning

 

Fun is a game where either player could win

 

contradiction

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BuildTheWalia    247
1 hour ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

I know you're going to argue "But if you don't care about winning, you aren't competing!!" Well, playing be default is competing. I believe whole-heartedly that competing is giving your all with everything you've got.YOU. Not the format's most notorious combo, nor the E-heroes you use because you think you're Jaden. I mean what YOU want to use & what YOU want to win with. All of it begins with you.

Let's say I want to win by using the best cards and combos of the format so I can win prizes, top events, and get some sick bragging rights and recognition. If it's what I want to use and what I want to win with, why am I not allowed to do that?

 

Let's also say that I am a huge Yugioh GX fan and want to be like Jaden. If "Jaden-E-Hero.dek" is what I want to use and what I want to win with, why am I not allowed to do that?

 

All of it DOES begin with YOU and what you want to do with the game, but that doesn't mean people should be forced to limit themselves. Competition, in the end, results in a winner and a loser and you shouldn't berate people for trying to have an edge over your deck. If you're playing the game for fun. you shouldn't berate people for choosing decks based on what their favorite character uses.

 

1 hour ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

It's not very sportsmanlike to tell other people how to compete or even what to compete with. Everybody should compete in their own way. Their aim above all though should be to have fun, because it's a game. It's a game before anything. I compete with my favorite cards because that's how I play. It's a game & you needn't take it seriously. 

It is actually very sportsmanlike to tell people, "Hey, your deck would work a lot better if you play this card!". WITHHOLDING that information so the player stays "bad" is not sportsmanlike. In the duels we had I pointed out that you were using Dark Hole when Raigeki is clearly a better option for your deck.

 

"Everyone should compete in their own way" is just another way to say "do what lets you have fun in the game". If your definition of fun is an actual competitive game where your wits and strategies are tested every turn, you should be allowed to do that. If your definition is playing with your favorite cards, you should be allowed to do that, but don't complain that people are playing decks that shit all over yours because OF COURSE they are going to, that's what makes them at the top. Arguing that the game should be so bland where you can put any random assortment of cards together and have it be just as competitive as one that has hours and hours of thought and careful decision making put into it it ceases to become a competitive game.

 

 

 

 

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»rap tap    20154

FOr Me It Would HAve 2 Be Dragon Ruler s. 

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SleepyHallo    4
1 hour ago, BuildTheWalia said:

Let's say I want to win by using the best cards and combos of the format so I can win prizes, top events, and get some sick bragging rights and recognition. If it's what I want to use and what I want to win with, why am I not allowed to do that?

Nobody said you weren't allowed to do that. I certainly didn't & you're clearly not reading what I'm posting because I've very clearly said TWICE now that that's totally fine. I don't care that people play to win & only pick the best cards. What I DO have a problem with is people getting mighty about themselves & telling others they're bad because they don't play the best cards or because they don't care about winning. Not everybody wants or cares about using what will win for them or what's the best for extending their own combos. 

 

Playing the format's best deck/combo doesn't make you a better player & it doesn't make you inherently better than people who play "bad decks". Don't confuse the player with their cards; they're separate entities. The only argument you could make to say that someone is bad in this game is if they use bad cards & play poorly or if they have good cards & play them poorly. In both cases, it's entirely on the player's skill. If playing the best deck meant that you were the best player, why don't mirror matches end in draws? Why can mirror-matches be one-sided? 

 

2 hours ago, BuildTheWalia said:

If your definition is playing with your favorite cards, you should be allowed to do that, but don't complain that people are playing decks that shit all over yours because OF COURSE they are going to, that's what makes them at the top.

Top players are top players because they use both the best cards & have the best skill. There are plenty of people that literally do not care about either of those things. I never complained about people not letting me play the game. I don't care about what cards people use, I care about having fun & having a good game.

 

 

HEY GUYS I JUST FINISHED PLANNING THIS VERY ELABORATE ENGINE BECAUSE I'M A GOOD PLAYER AND THESE CARDS REQUIRE ELABORATE PLAYMAKING TO FUNCTION THIS IS ENTIRELY RELIANT ON MY OWN SKILL AND NOT LITERALLY CANCER THAT ANYONE CAN PLAYScreenshot_85.png

 

Hi there, I like playing Yu-gi-oh. Here are some of my cards. They are certainly not the best by any means, but I like these cards because they are my cards. Konami plz

Screenshot_87.png

 

 

 

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SleepyHallo    4
2 hours ago, Jazz said:

contradiction

It'd be a contradiction if I said that I want to win. It doesn't matter if I win or lose when I'm having fun. That's how it should always be. It's a game. 

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BuildTheWalia    247
11 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

Nobody said you weren't allowed to do that. I certainly didn't & you're clearly not reading what I'm posting because I've very clearly said TWICE now that that's totally fine.

What are you talking about? You literally said that using the format's most well known comobs and that playing E-Heroes because you like Jaden is NOT the definition of competition.

 

Direct Quote:

4 hours ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

I know you're going to argue "But if you don't care about winning, you aren't competing!!" Well, playing be default is competing. I believe whole-heartedly that competing is giving your all with everything you've got. YOU. Not the format's most notorious combo, nor the E-heroes you use because you think you're Jaden. lol I mean what YOU want to use & what YOU want to win with. All of it begins with you.

 

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»rap tap    20154

i suck royal dick at this game but is that what you think a good pendulum build looks like

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+mmf    23484
14 minutes ago, rap tap said:

i suck royal dick at this game but is that what you think a good pendulum build looks like

didnt even look at the list but the answer is yes

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BuildTheWalia    247
20 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

What I DO have a problem with is people getting mighty about themselves & telling others they're bad because they don't play the best cards or because they don't care about winning. Not everybody wants or cares about using what will win for them or what's the best for extending their own combos. 

You're right! This kind of elitism about people who are playing decks that THEY find interesting or fun is bad! However it works both ways. Just because someone is using a "meta deck" doesn't mean you need to call them cancer, skill-less, etc. Because it's not, it's a different aspect of the game.

 

26 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

Playing the format's best deck/combo doesn't make you a better player & it doesn't make you inherently better than people who play "bad decks". Don't confuse the player with their cards; they're separate entities. The only argument you could make to say that someone is bad in this game is if they use bad cards & play poorly or if they have good cards & play them poorly. In both cases, it's entirely on the player's skill. If playing the best deck meant that you were the best player, why don't mirror matches end in draws? Why can mirror-matches be one-sided? 

Yes, playing the format's best deck makes you better if and only if you have the skill required to make that deck stand out above the others. If someone uses ANY cards and plays poorly then they are obviously not a good player. If they use "bad" cards but use them well, they aren't a bad player but they are playing unoptimally, and that is seen as a detriment in any competitive environment.

 

31 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

Top players are top players because they use both the best cards & have the best skill. There are plenty of people that literally do not care about either of those things. I never complained about people not letting me play the game. I don't care about what cards people use, I care about having fun & having a good game.

Again, just because YOU don't care about winning doesn't mean you should call the format that doesn't support your deck choices "bad", "unfair", or "disappointing". It is still considered "fun and having a good game" by a lot of people, and attacking a format they find fun is a sure way to get attacked yourself.

 

38 minutes ago, Kitkatsune | 狐 said:

HEY GUYS I JUST FINISHED PLANNING THIS VERY ELABORATE ENGINE BECAUSE I'M A GOOD PLAYER AND THESE CARDS REQUIRE ELABORATE PLAYMAKING TO FUNCTION THIS IS ENTIRELY RELIANT ON MY OWN SKILL AND NOT LITERALLY CANCER THAT ANYONE CAN PLAY

 

Hi there, I like playing Yu-gi-oh. Here are some of my cards. They are certainly not the best by any means, but I like these cards because they are my cards. Konami plz

What is this? Is this supposed to prove a point? First off, the standard "meta pendulum engine" doesn't look like that, that only further drives into competitive players' minds that you don't know what you're talking about. The Pendulum Engine IS very elaborate and reliant on skill, which is why people constantly shitted on Jay because he was so bad at it.

 

The second parts seems to be you describing yourself. You can for sure play the game with the cards you choose and people who call you bad simply because you play those "unoptimal" choices are pretty close-minded. BUT adding the "Konami plz" makes me think you dislike Konami (and the competitive ygo community in general) for promoting meta decks above others. Again, the point of the game isn't one where you can play whatever card you want, it's where people have to constantly develop new strageies and ways of playing the game in order to win. You can say you don't care about winning, but winning is the end goal of a well-designed game, and you shouldn't criticize the game or its players for it.

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